Gen 3 AC issue

[Otispunkmeyer]

Ok so bit of a problem with the AC.

Background: used Prius just bought from independent used car dealer. AC didn't work on test drive. I asked them to regas. They did and when I picked it up it was working.

FFWD to now: It's been very hot and the AC has not worked during the hottest parts of the day. It seems to work fine in the morning when it is cooler however. Though it's still not great.

Symptoms: Hit the AC button

1) lights on the recirc/outside air buttons cycle between each other.

2) condenser fans spin up. Shortly followed by compressor spinning up.

3)almost immediately after that, both items shut off.

4)steps 2&3 repeat until you've had enough. Sometimes you'll get a longer cycle than the others up to a minute or so. Then it's back to short cycling.

When the AC does work it blows cold but I wouldn't say it's ice cold. It's also a little damp/musty feeling. That should be fixable with a new cabin filter and perhaps a condenser foam clean.

What is causing the cycling though? 

Here's a link to some video:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1hKn13ThD2ZkMP--DRWOqNgngYAE2CnFh

[Chippy01]

If it was me, I would take it to Mr T and see if any fault codes could be read. That might pinpoint the problem.

[Harters]

What happens when you put it in Auto?

In all cars I have had with CC that is all I do, Auto and then e.g. 21 and the car works out what needs to be done.  I have only ever seen recirculate on through flow.

In my Gen 4 I have it set Auto 21 and its ice cold in probably 30 seconds.  The fan speed starts of slow, then gradually ramps up to get the temperature down then the fans calm down to a nice quiet hum.

Not sure how different the Gen 3 is though.

[Otispunkmeyer]

35 minutes ago, Chippy01 said:

If it was me, I would take it to Mr T and see if any fault codes could be read. That might pinpoint the problem.

I have a code reader.... An app called doctor hybrid and it can ping, I think, 9 different ECUs for fault codes, climate being one of them. Not a sausage. Not for the whole car!

I've just read on PriusChat and it sounds like maybe the quick cycling is normal... But I'm not so sure.

Failing that we have a proper Snap-on Modus tool at work and failing that, Toyota are based on site!

[Otispunkmeyer]

Just driven home from training. It's cooler outside though still 28 degrees and muggy as hell. The Aircon took a minute but it got rather cool and it stayed that way all the way home.

So if it does that again in the morning there is definitely an ambient temperature element to this. 

Anyone know if all the noises I recorded in my videos is normal?

[QuantumFireball]

11 hours ago, Otispunkmeyer said:

Anyone know if all the noises I recorded in my videos is normal?

It doesn't sound normal to me. It's like it's tripping/resetting or stuck in some weird feedback loop. I don't think the recirc changes on mine unless I have it set to Auto. Though mine's post-facelift so might behave differently.

Don't know about Doctor Hybrid (wasn't aware of that app until you mentioned it, I must check it out), but with Hybrid Assistant it will show you all the various temperature measurements, including the cabin temperature. It might be good to check these in case it's maybe getting faulty readings.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Oh my word that app (Hybrid Assistant and the accompanying Hybrid Assistant Reporter) is awesome! As if that is free as well. The reports generated are really impressive. You'd pay £1000s for that if were made by ETAS or Dewesoft for example. That's my new favourite thing. 

All the guys scoffed at the car when I turned up in it but once they see that the engineer in them is going to be impressed.

Tyres on Monday, hopefully gets rid of the slight off centre on the steering (winter tyre on left, summer on right).

New cabin filter fitted

In to the dealer on Tuesday for AC. Fingers crossed it's just playing up because someone hasn't gassed the system right.

Will update when done.

 

[wass]

On 7/27/2018 at 8:09 PM, wass said:

Car air conditioning never ceases to amuse. Refrigeration technicians are highly,trained, skilled, knowledgeable and qualified. Qualifications are gained over a period of approximately 3 years minimum. Knowledge takes a while longer to accumulate. Garages in the most part, cant afford to employ air conditioning technicians. So to put it simply, why don't you ask the bloke next door if he wouldnt mind asking his youngest to wipe a cloth over the vents and give the ac a once over? Change the pollen filter, clean out the vents, run the unit on recirc only for the shortest possible periods and once or twice a year scald the entire system with air which is hotter than 60 degrees for about 15 minutes. EASY to do on a hot summers day with the ac turned onto maximum heat medium fan speed on a long run during which the engine is at its full working temperature. (Motorways are good for this.)Dont forget to wind the windows down so that the heat escapes and the system carries on trying to throw heat through the ductwork and coils. You then ensure that you kill the bacteria which makes everything stink. Keep the drain clean and clear, blow out the coil and kill bacteria by temperature and not disinfectant.

Adding, topping up or routinely replacing refrigerant isnt necessary. Changing refrigerant is only necessary when there has been a leak. All refrigerant leaks have to be degassed, repaired and proven  prior to reintroducing refrigerant. Most refrigerant leaks are very hard to detect. They do sell dyes which glow under an ultraviolet lamp however, what they don't tell you is that these dyes will only work if the leak is big enough to let the ultraviolet sensitive element of the dye  to escape ; in many cases the molecular size of the escaping gas component is smaller than the dye molecule size and so the gas escapes whilst the dye doesn't. It makes everyone think that the problem went away until the ac stops cooling again.

And guess what! you didn't just pay a semiskilled, barely trained, charlatan £165 to be fed a line or two.

Recent developments show the motor industry trying to protect its own by introducing "special" refrigerants so that you have to entrust your vehicle to someone who just got back from a fortnights course. Sorry to say, this doesn't make them right ; a properly trained refrigeration technician knows how to handle and is qualified to manage any type of refrigerant from propane to carbon dioxide to ammonia ( I kid you not) and many , many more.

 A lot of people refer to air conditioning as "air con" some of them think they are being a bit savvy, Nicholas Cage fans and err ...cool. However I think that they are unwittingly being extremely accurate; a lot of the air conditioning trade is "air CON"

From what you describe, your car air conditioning was re-gassed illegally ( european F gas regulations), ie. gas added to a system without finding and repairing the source of the leak.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Well hopefully the bods at Toyota will drain the system and refill correctly and this will sort the issue. If they can find a leak and fix it as well, bonus! I know how difficult that can be though.

As I say, it seems to work fine unless its really hot and the car has been baked all day. If the system has been over-filled then (and I am guessing here) I assume the line pressure is such that the system trips and resets.

I will heed your advice about hitting the system with maximum heat and I'll take a look at the cabin air intake plenums. I assume these are easy to get to?

Also how easy is it to get at and clean the AC condenser/radiator. The whole engine bay is a bit grubby if I am honest. I have never had a car, of any age, with a engine bay so filthy. 

[Otispunkmeyer]

Right, they've had a look and given they'd rang me at about half past 8 this morning tells me that the problem was fairly obvious. They've found a leak in the condenser and noted that the system had the incorrect amount of fluid (which of course it would if it had a leak, but he guessed given what was in there that it had been over-filled).

So new condenser

Just trying to sort this out through the warranty company now because its nearly £500!

[danowat]

21 minutes ago, Otispunkmeyer said:

Right, they've had a look and given they'd rang me at about half past 8 this morning tells me that the problem was fairly obvious. They've found a leak in the condenser and noted that the system had the incorrect amount of fluid (which of course it would if it had a leak, but he guessed given what was in there that it had been over-filled).

So new condenser

Just trying to sort this out through the warranty company now because its nearly £500!

So someone regassed it without fixing the leak?, sounds about right.

[FROSTYBALLS]

30 minutes ago, Otispunkmeyer said:

Right, they've had a look and given they'd rang me at about half past 8 this morning tells me that the problem was fairly obvious. They've found a leak in the condenser and noted that the system had the incorrect amount of fluid (which of course it would if it had a leak, but he guessed given what was in there that it had been over-filled).

So new condenser

Just trying to sort this out through the warranty company now because its nearly £500!

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you don't need to go through the warranty company as the onus is on the dealer you bought the car from to take responsibility -

"If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise."

Further detail:  https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

[Mike J.]

33 minutes ago, danowat said:

So someone regassed it without fixing the leak?, sounds about right.

Sounds more like they over gassed it. It has happened twice with my cars and the aircon compressor trips out and cycles again etc - with Vauxhalls you get opcom and see the over pressure values. Leaks are hard to find and on one of my cars, it took 9 months of use before the leak affected the aircon performance - pressure drop not seen by regassing machine.

[Otispunkmeyer]

So warranty will only cover £300 or so (most of the labour, half the regassing fee and will only pony up for a pattern part).

As its with Toyota already and I want it done quick (the pattern part is on back order, and I've no idea of the quality given the cheap price), I've just said to go ahead and fit the OEM part. Happily, it seems that the dealer who supplied the car is willing to go to the business owner and ask about covering the rest. Quite happy with a contribution from them but if they pay the remainder that would be very nice. Stuff like this just goes with the territory. I don't expect a perfect car and I don't expect a used dealer to be a product expert. They should have been more thorough yes and items like AC should definitely be working before sale if the car has been advertised with it (a private sale is different I think). But at the end of the day, I realise they're trying to run a business and make a living as well.

Part should arrive tomorrow and I'll get it fitted next week. Just in time for the heat to return!