Yaris hybrid ‘kickdown’

[Graham47]

Had a road test yesterday in a Yaris hybrid.  Was particularly interested to try the cvt gearbox because I’m not generally a fan.

Must say I was quite impressed, and most of my ‘fears’ were alleviated.  However, the one thing I couldn’t try was the kickdown as you might need for rapid overtaking.  Appreciate this isn’t going to be a hybrid strength but would appreciate owners real world experiences.

TIA

[CPN]

It isn't really a "kickdown" as such; in the same way as a conventional auto gearbox anyway.

In the Hybrids, the relationship between your right foot and the powertrain is quite a complex one and constantly variable between using power from the ICE (which itself varies between Otto and Atkinson cycle) and power from the Motor/Generator and HV traction Battery with all sorts of combinations in between.

However, if we are just considering the "kickdown" situation (as you describe it) or more accurately, maximum power demand, then what you get when you floor the right foot is the sum of all the parts. ie. Max ICE power and Max Battery traction power added together which, in the case of the Yaris amounts to just about 100 bhp whilst the combined system can safely sustain it. The result is quite a surprise in the Yaris when most people experience it for the first time since acceleration to 30 mph is quite rapid owing the short period when instantaneous high torque is available courtesy of the traction Battery and motor/generator. (you get 55KW from the ICE and I have seen 20KW from the battery briefly for a short period on "kickdown" = 75KW total = 100.6 BHP)

In fact, it is quite surprising how many standard cars of much higher specs can be left behind at the "traffic light grand prix" by a lowly Yaris Hybrid! (up to 30 mph anyway lol!)

[Graham47]

Thanks CPN, that’s really useful.

What’s it like (say) 40 to 60 or 50 to 70 ?

[CPN]

Nippy enough for me and when you bear in mind that the car I owned before I turned to Hybrids was my beloved GT86, I'm not easily satisfied in that regard.

Could it be nippier? Of course. Is it nippy enough to get you out of trouble safely? Yes it is. (in my opinion)

[CPN]

Oh and I should add that I still get mid 50s in mpg regularly, even at Motorway permitted speeds...

[Graham47]

4 minutes ago, CPN said:

Nippy enough for me and when you bear in mind that the car I owned before I turned to Hybrids was my beloved GT86, I'm not easily satisfied in that regard.

Could it be nippier? Of course. Is it nippy enough to get you out of trouble safely? Yes it is. (in my opinion)

Many thanks...feeling much more reassured.

[Mike J.]

10 hours ago, CPN said:

In fact, it is quite surprising how many standard cars of much higher specs can be left behind at the "traffic light grand prix" by a lowly Yaris Hybrid! (up to 30 mph anyway lol!)

In damp situations, my Yaris will slightly spin the wheels from standstill AND when the petrol engine gives full torque a few seconds later, so although the power is low-ish, full torque can reach around 280Nm in the best conditions - this is more than the BMW i3 electric vehicle.

[Graham47]

Many thanks for these replies.

can I ‘reverse ‘ this a little and ask if this ‘instant’ amount of torque then becomes a problem in winter on snow or ice ?

[Bomber209]

Hi,

  A lot will depend on your tyres. I have a set of 'winters' for SWMBO as where we live is fair slope to get to the gritted road(s). Normal day to day driving it fairly nips on. You don't fell a surge of a kick down when you plant your right foot, but the power gauge (RPM) shoots up and drive noise increases and away you go.  

[CPN]

Like Phil, we use winter tyres but in any event, this is why all of Toyota's Hybrids have Traction Control by default which is on by default all the time (along with stability control) owing to this potential for high torque at the wheels. As long as you are gentle on the right foot, the traction control does a good job of coping on snow and ice even on the normal tyres in winter.

Having said that, there has been a couple of times when I have managed to get the traction control indicator flashing on the dashboard (indicating wheel slip) when I've pulled away when the car was unevenly balanced (on an angle).

[CPN]

Oh and by the way Phil, the power gauge is not connected to RPM at all but in fact follows the action and relationship of the ICE, PSD (Power Split Device) and MG1/MG2.

There is a great article on it here http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ but you'll need to view the page on a PC or similar that has Flash installed (Android does not for example) to get the full effect and understanding of what is going on...

[Bomber209]

CPN Hi.

  I know that the 'Power' gauge is not RPM, but just used that as an analogy. But to you being a Yorkie  it's a big word (I'm a Lanky by the way).

[m456an]

11 hours ago, Bomber209 said:

CPN Hi.

  I know that the 'Power' gauge is not RPM, but just used that as an analogy. But to you being a Yorkie  it's a big word (I'm a Lanky by the way).

I do not own a hybrid  but they are more complicated that is why I am.... anyway I did find some equations that may be helpful in ref to previous post:

• MG1_RPM = 3.6 * ICE_RPM - 2.6 * MG2_RPM

• MG2_RPM = (3.6 * ICE_RPM - MG1_RPM) / 2.6

• ICE_RPM = (MG1_RPM + 2.6 * MG2_RPM) / 3.6

[CPN]

CPN Hi.

  I know that the 'Power' gauge is not RPM, but just used that as an analogy. But to you being a Yorkie  it's a big word (I'm a Lanky by the way).

Yes, I was born in Yorkshire but went down south when I was 8 so it's a bit of a stretch to refer too me as a "Yorkie" now! ;-) Other than that, I'm not too sure of what you are referring to by "it's a big word" lol! ...

 

Given what it shows and how it operates, I would have thought that the "Power" gauge is more analogous to the indication shown by the old Vacuum Guage that used to be available as an add-on... It behaves in an almost identical fashion even though it's not actually driven by the inlet manifold's negative pressure on the engine side of the throttle body...

 

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[Mick F]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:08 AM, CPN said:

Given what it shows and how it operates, I would have thought that the "Power" gauge is more analogous to the indication shown by the old Vacuum Guage that used to be available as an add-on... It behaves in an almost identical fashion even though it's not actually driven by the inlet manifold's negative pressure on the engine side of the throttle body...

Yes, that's the way I've always thought about it, and it does indeed behave like one ............ but the other way round. I had a vacuum gauge many moons ago on my Hillman Hunter in the 1970s.  I had to remove the manifold and drill and tap a hole for the brass connector.

BTW, I was born in North Wales, brought up in Wigan, then joined the RN at going on seventeen in 1969.  Married, and moved up and down the country finally settling in Cornwall 33 years ago.

Mick.

[Mike J.]

11 hours ago, m456an said:

I do not own a hybrid  but they are more complicated that is why I am.... anyway I did find some equations that may be helpful in ref to previous post:

• MG1_RPM = 3.6 * ICE_RPM - 2.6 * MG2_RPM

• MG2_RPM = (3.6 * ICE_RPM - MG1_RPM) / 2.6

• ICE_RPM = (MG1_RPM + 2.6 * MG2_RPM) / 3.6

These figures maybe applicable to the old Prius, but our cars have the newer CVT gearbox (3rd gen I believe) and when the ICE rpm is zero, the MG1 rpm is around minus the MG2 rpm and not 2.6 times the minus figure. For more info, watch this video: Toyota hybrid CVT info. Check out the other videos from WeberAuto - lots of good info on EVs and hybrids.

[CPN]

6 hours ago, Mick F said:

Yes, that's the way I've always thought about it, and it does indeed behave like one ............ but the other way round. I had a vacuum gauge many moons ago on my Hillman Hunter in the 1970s.  I had to remove the manifold and drill and tap a hole for the brass connector.

Been there! Done that lol! (but on a different car)

6 hours ago, Mick F said:

BTW, I was born in North Wales, brought up in Wigan, then joined the RN at going on seventeen in 1969.  Married, and moved up and down the country finally settling in Cornwall 33 years ago.

Mick.

Wow! Sounds like we lived parallel lives on different tracks. Born in North Yorkshire, family moved to the south coast (Hove), when I was 8, on Dad's promotion. Lost my broad Yorky accent during my teenage years down there and joined the Royal Signals when I was going on 17 in 1966. First posting after training was a dream ticket (then) to Cyprus then back home, married in Scotland (where my son was born) then more training, back to Cyprus (not so good - after the troubles) then BAOR and finally back to UK on completion. Bit of globetrotting after that for 10 or so years (Telecommunications/Networking) before settling in Central Scotland then eventually moving back down to a place in my home county where we can afford to live! (as opposed to my home town which is WAY out of reach!)

[Mick F]

This seems like a bit of thread-drift here!

Mum and Dad were Lancastrians.  Mum from Coppull and Dad from Wigan.  Dad had a travelling salesman job after the war and was based in Chester.  They moved out to a small house west of Wrexham up in the hills - Gwynfryn - and I was born there.  Big sister went to Gwynfryn school, but we moved back to Wigan when I was three.

Joined the RN in '69 and did 27years.  I was going to work one morning in Devonport and sort of had a mid-lfe crisis and decided there and then to hand my notice in. In just over a year, I was out aged 42 with a service pension of course.  Had a driving job locally for five or six years, then retired completely.  Never been happier than I am now.

Aged nearly 66 and still have a northern accent but not lived in Lancashire since 1969.  Been living in Cornwall since 1985.  45 years happily married and we've two grown-up daughters who were both born in Scotland - one Dunfermline, the other Edinburgh.

After training - I was an electronic engineer working on weapon systems, radars, communications, and computers - I joined a ship and sailed out to the Far East and Oz for twelve months, then came home and met the love of my life.  We were posted to Rosyth, Fife where we lived of six years, then Devonport for a few years, then back to Scotland to Clyde Submarine Base where I worked in the Communication Centre on cryptographic equipment, then back down to Devonport.  Mainly lived in married quarters but bought our first house in Balloch on the shores of Loch Lomond.  Sold up there and bought a house in Gunnislake, Cornwall when the girls were young.  Moved to this bungalow in 1997.

Ships: HMS Achilles, Gurkha, Ambuscade, Sirius, Marlborough, Argyll.   Shore bases: HMS Raleigh, Collingwood, Cochrane, Neptune, Drake.

Potted history of me!

Mick.

[CPN]

Got to pop out just now but in the interests of maintaining the thread, check your private mail later on! [emoji6]

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[YarisOAP]

I had a test drive in a Yaris hybrid icon tech was very impressed with the drive train

so put one on order for September delivery 

[Graham47]

I was originally looking at Excel but told nothing until at least October but Icon tech availability about a month.

problem was p/ex was way too low + not fully committed yet.

May go to another dealer next week and try for better p/ex plus see if they will honour their carwow price.

[YarisOAP]

Don't think you will get more for your car than webuyanycar try that see what it comes out at

[Graham47]

I have....there is £2000 difference, hence why I’m trying another dealer.

[m456an]

19 hours ago, Mike J. said:

These figures maybe applicable to the old Prius, but our cars have the newer CVT gearbox (3rd gen I believe) and when the ICE rpm is zero, the MG1 rpm is around minus the MG2 rpm and not 2.6 times the minus figure. For more info, watch this video: Toyota hybrid CVT info. Check out the other videos from WeberAuto - lots of good info on EVs and hybrids.

Good video so the third generation uses no chain so it is more reliable. I did not know that some Russian inventor gets royalties from this. He will be very rich if he can also sue the other car giants.

[YarisOAP]

 I have to own upto I thought you had to plug the hybrid in

no doubt a lot of people thought this, their adverts need to be better.