2008 DCAT - replacing DPF?

[Dippy]

Hi all

My RAV4 2008 DCAT has thrown a wobbly. After a couple of EGR cleans in the last 4 years, and me cleaning it manually this time, Toyota have diagnosed this current issue (limp mode, check engine, VSC, 4x4) as blocked DPF. They tried to clean a few times but its not having it. So they are quoting me €2300 for a new part and €500 to fit.

Car has just passed 150 000 km.  We live near a motorway, so it usually does 10-15 minutes up the motorway twice a day to take daughter to school, as well as shorter journeys, or max 20 mins down the motorway to visit friends. We venture further afield maybe 4-6x per year, including a drive across Spain (I live in Lisbon) to go skiing in Feb.  I read now that a bit further more often would be better - but also that a DPF lasting that long appears to be quite reasonable.

I’m not interested in deleting the DPF or selling the car. My question is, how to bring the price down as I believe this can be done for 1000.  I first assume they are correct, that it’s the DPF and I need to replace. Google/Ebay suggests parts are available for 4-700 pounds, but a) I don’t know if one make is more reliable than another or all on offer are junk, b) I don’t know if any other parts are required (there’s often a pipe comes up in the search?), c) I don’t know how tricky it is to replace; unbolting a DPF can’t be so difficult but if it starts to involve stuck sensors, fifth injector, damaging XYZ etc then it will be above my pay grade. I am really amazed that no-one has done a How To on this, in all of YouTube, considering that so many are up in arms about the DPF cost issue?

I know also a blocked DPF can be a symptom of other things such as air leak but my main concern now is to get the car back on the road.

Can anyone give me advice on choosing an aftermarket part and fitting it?  I'm currently in the UK (Sussex) for two weeks if it helps, but the car isn't.

Many thanks!

[daveh_rav4]

€2800 for a repair... that has to be a joke or someones nightmare!  I would want a whole new car (used) for that money, and if that's the cost that Toyota dealers are quoting... it would not be a Toyota!

[Pogle]

Brendan,

When you say the dealer has tried to clean the DPF a few times was that by trying to carry out a forced regeneration? If the DPF is actually blocked that has limited chance of success.  There is a company called Ceramex who are specialists in cleaning out DPFs for a reasonable cost compared to a new one. It would mean removing your DPF and sending it off to them. Have a look.....it might just be another option for you to consider?

[Dippy]

Dave, it seems DPFs and official dealerships do have this reputation, that official replacement costs close to the s/h value of the car. 

Andy thanks, I'll look but I imagine a world of complication of me removing it then posting it from Portugal to the UK at a fair cost, to come back and it will happen again in a few months, or those are the expectations I get from reading a few DPF stories on the web. I really don't mind replacing it at this age - just not for 3k! Hoping someone else had had this experience and resolved it to their satisfaction...

[gjnorthall]

Some of the cheaper units are a bit of a gamble but if you go for a recognised brand such as BM Catalysts you'll be fine though this will cost you around £720. You'll also need new gaskets for the inlet and outlet ports - probably best to get these from Toyota. There are various bolts and studs / nuts which secure the unit to the bracket and secure the heat- shields. Some of the fastenings will have seized and the heads spalled so you've got far more chance of removal using a 6 rather than 12 point socket. If you snap a fastener - it's no big deal since the new unit will be equipped with all the captive nuts and the fasteners are standard M8 bolts / studs / nuts which you can match up in length. It makes life easier removing the cat, if you double nut the studs on the turbo outlet and unscrew them from the turbo body. There are two temperature sensors and two pressure impulse lines which need to be swapped over. This is easier done with the cat unit on the bench. Don't use silicon based releasing sprays or sealants - silicon is a catalyst poison.

[Dippy]

G thanks so much, that's very practical advice that I'm looking for! I have seen that brand, so if they are established then I'll go for that. I guessed at gaskets. If Toyota say they washed it (he was talking quickly in Portuguese!) then I'd guess all the fasteners have been loosened - but my wife told me she paid 28 euros to take the car back, which sounds like very little so I fear they haven't, only tried a few forced regenerations at high revs. 

My next question would be where is this on the car, but if you say studs on the turbo outlet then that sounds like it's at the back of the engine bay. Any links to any diagrams, and do I have a snowball's chance of doing this roadside without ramps, or should it go to a garage?

And one more - what is the chance of me getting the wrong one? There seemed to be a few come up when I do a search eg on eBay, I worry they changed something every year and I get one, take it back to Portugal, and then find one bracket is the wrong way round... I don't see how they could have changed the design in 3 years? Same engine surely?

Thanks a lot for all this, it's really helpful (and I hope will also help anyone else searching for similar).

[gjnorthall]

There shouldn't be a problem getting the correct part. In the first instance you can get the Toyota part number corresponding to your VIN from Toyota's online parts list. This will then cross reference to non OE parts. This isn't an easy job and as a minimum you'd need to lift the front of the car on stands or ramps to get access to the back of the engine and then it's a struggle reaching quite far upwards whilst lying on your back. Remember that the DPF weighs around 7Kg so not the easiest thing to manhandle. It's infinitely easier doing the job with the car on a lift.

I would guess that your dealer has done little more than a repeated forced regen. Whilst there are loads of claims for "washing" DPF's it's only successful in a limited number of cases. Professionals who clean DPF's use ultrasonics to remove blockages and then "wash" to flush out dislodged material. There are loads of DIY methods of cleaning DPF's including using oven cleaner, thinners and high pressure water jetting - these methods often result in damage to the filter matrix.

There are a few things you can do to ensure longevity of a DPF. Firstly there's quite a bit of evidence that cars run on supermarket rather than premium fuel suffer more problems with EGR's and DPF's. Secondly, as well as ensuring you stick to a regime that allows the DPF to regenerate - every now and then, give the car an Italian tune up to help blow out any accumulated solids in the cat and DPF. Lastly, manufacturers are claiming that more and more DPF's are failing through use of the wrong engine oil. The viscosity grade may be correct but engines with DPF's require low SAPS (sulphated ash, phosphorous and sulphur) oil to minimise the deposition of ash.

 

[daveh_rav4]

'G'  I am sure your right about all that stuff... but surely a 4x4 vehicle does not need all that complicated, very difficult to repair and at huge cost to drive humans down a road... where is all this junk coming from?  Fourty years ago we used to have vehicles that did not have all this tosh... they were cheap to build, easy and cheap to repair and lasted twenty to thirty years or more.  We have taken a seriously wrong turn somewhere?  The planets resources are being ravaged as we keep throwing perfectly good vehicles away after several years just to scramble for the latest shiny new toy with the latest garnished IC and electronics, d'oh!

[Dippy]

Ok I'm building confidence on this, very many thanks again. I'll make some calls in the next couple of days to see where I can pick up a replacement part. You warn about the sensors and impulse lines - isn't there a fifth injector somewhere in the system? Is that in the DPF, or is it earlier, eg not sure if I saw it at the end of the exhaust manifold?  I have some car crazy friends who do a lot of work themselves, I can see if anyone has a lift I could borrow.  All your advice on longevity of a DPF echoes what I've read already. Yes I'll be more careful with the next one!!

Dave you are right but slightly rose tinted. Many of the cars that were cheap to build rotted away in less than 10 years - my first car was a kit car, whereby a whole industry had build up on respectable mechanics but awful bodywork. My father's 1997 Mondeo was scrapped at 10 years old as the internals were giving out. As Anchorman put in one of the posts in CharleyFarley's thread about this DCAT engine, it is the cream of non-polluting for what is a very dirty fuel. In the various things I've read, all these are great ideas in theory, but someone forgot the practical side in the design, and so we are ending up with headaches. For you guys in the UK it would be worth getting rid, but in Portugal cars are literally double the price of those in UK due to taxes, and so changing it is absolutely not an option for me. I think the last quote I had for its value was 16 000 euros, and it's still a very comfy car for long distances; new it was about 45k, as would be a replacement. If I can spend 1k to keep it on the road for another 5-10 years (estimated DPF life, of course there will be more expenditures) I will happily do so. 

[Heidfirst]

2 hours ago, daveh_rav4 said:

'G'  I am sure your right about all that stuff... but surely a 4x4 vehicle does not need all that complicated, very difficult to repair and at huge cost to drive humans down a road... 

No, they don't as long as you are willing to put up with all the crap that would then spew out of the exhausts & the effect of that on the environment & peoples health ...

 

[gjnorthall]

The picture shows basically what you need to remove. The exhaust connection is top left and you can just see the turbo connection top right. The two impulse lines have been disconnected at the flexible pipes and you can see the connector blocks for the two temperature sensors. 

[daveh_rav4]

13 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

No, they don't as long as you are willing to put up with all the crap that would then spew out of the exhausts & the effect of that on the environment & peoples health ...

 

Aghhh, the same old story the manufactuers spew out about why we all have to have new cars every five or six years... 'the latest low emission pollution saving vehicle'  While they trot off laughing all the way to the bank!  If that is the real reason for having to constantly re-new cars... why don't the manufactuers just develope upgrades to exsisting vehicles?  It would be a much cheaper option from a carbon foot print point of view, and financial cost to the vehicle owner than replacing the whole car!  

See my post on 'New car carbon foot print',  the post is eight down from the top... 

 

Well worth reading every now and again... just to remind you who exactly is benifitting from new car sales... and it's not the envioroment!

[Heidfirst]

9 hours ago, daveh_rav4 said:

Aghhh, the same old story the manufactuers spew out about why we all have to have new cars every five or six years... 'the latest low emission pollution saving vehicle'  While they trot off laughing all the way to the bank!  If that is the real reason for having to constantly re-new cars... why don't the manufactuers just develope upgrades to exsisting vehicles?  It would be a much cheaper option from a carbon foot print point of view, and financial cost to the vehicle owner than replacing the whole car!  

Obviously vehicle manufacturers are businesses so have an interest in selling new vehicles to replace older ones. However, there is no doubt that a forty year old vehicle will be thirstier, dirtier & less safe in an accident than a current production equivalent.

They can't really sell upgrades because of the cost of engineering/manufacturing/certification for a smaller demand (what % would actually take up?) & that assumes that upgrades could be fitted cost effectively - some no doubt would cost more to buy & install than depreciated vehicles were worth & some probably are not capable of being retrofitted at all without a wholesale change to the body or wiring loom.

[daveh_rav4]

Building new cars at the rate we are now with the cost to the environment is not sustainable... sod the manufacturers profit margins; the planets resources and well being are more important.  Their is the engineering capability to make a vehicle last fourty years, but they won't do it because they want to keep selling you new ones and make more money. Obsolescence is built in to products these days because manufacturers don’t want their products to last.  If necessary, government legislation will have to step in and limit the throwing away of perfectly good consumer products just because manufacturers need constant turn over. 

As I say, it is not sustainable; global warming caused by the rise of CO2 emissions will see the destruction of the planet else.  Just this year, record heat waves everywhere are being recorded all over the planet, brush and heath fires like we have never witnessed before are being bolstered by global warming and causing devastation on a biblical scale. 

How many times do we have to be poked in the eye before we wake up!  If I can get round in a twenty year old vehicle... you all can!

Try watching H. G. Well's... 'The Day the Earth Stood Still'  The planet needs to be saved from man!

[Heidfirst]

13 hours ago, daveh_rav4 said:

 If necessary, government legislation will have to step in and limit the throwing away of perfectly good consumer products just because manufacturers need constant turn over. 

Actually a lot of it is being driven by government legislation ...

The planet needs to be saved from man!

I quite agree that Man is the biggest plague on this earth & the greatest threat.

 

[daveh_rav4]

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

Actually a lot of it is being driven by government legislation ...

True... then we need to change the type of governments to none economic based one's; however, utopia is going to be difficult to acheive... 😞

Anyhow, I have managed to do it again... sorry Brendon, I have hi-jacked your thread; I'm outta here....

 

[Dippy]

Slow progress, but my nightmare would be to get the wrong one, it will cost me a fortune to send it back...

Went to trusted motor factors, they put my chassis number into their system and said "computer says no". Couldn't give me any more info, just said their system does all the cross referencing with Toyota part number and aftermarket manufacturer part numbers, and it was coming up with a blank with the suppliers they used.

Spoke to my parents' helpful local garage chap. He did say to double check if a UK part for a RHD vehicle is identical for a part for a LHD vehicle, eg if there is something like a steering column in the way of one and not another. He also showed me the part diagram on his system, it's just the main lump and a couple of gaskets so that's easy. However it did ask the engine code and gave two options. A quick web search finds parts available on Amazon (!?) again questioning the engine code and giving 3 power options, 100, 110 or 130kw.  I think my T180 is 130kw.  

When I select that, it then offers me a "pressure pipe", as though it's a common dual purchase.  I guess I leave it for the moment?

For anyone else looking at this and wanting part numbers, it says

Bm Catalysts

Referencia del fabricante BM11060H

Referencia OEM 25051-26020

 

It seems the part number is the same whether I buy it on Amazon UK or Amazon ES (Spain), so I'll assume there is no difference in LHD/RHD.

 

I'm happy I can get them on Amazon - less happy that they won't deliver to Portugal!  None in stock right now anyway, so I'll ponder my options, or see if I can find a BM Catalyst supplier in Portugal.

[Dippy]

Forgot to add - local garage said I might need some recoding after? Anyone know about that?   I don't know if Toyota dealer would do it - somehow I doubt it - and I've yet to find a decent alternative near me.

[gjnorthall]

You can check for correct part numbers against your VIN at

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota

Check with BM regarding agents nearest to you.

There is no need for any re-coding after replacing the cat.

[Dippy]

The story continues, in a positive vein 😀

I phoned BM.  Very helpful lady was going to give me a BM supplier in Portugal, but came back and said instead she'd give me a UK supplier who shipped to Portugal.   It's a common car spares website (am I allowed to name them here?), who also have an eBay shop. Went on the website, part is 600-odd pounds rather than 700-odd from Amazon.  Good stuff.  Phoned their helpline, very helpful about shipping to Portugal - that will be 24 pounds sir.  Sounds good enough to me. Then went back on their website and fought with it for an hour trying to enter billing address, shipping address... tried on my Mac and on PC...  Finally phoned them up and they said no don't use the website, we've had issues for months, use our eBay site.  So I put the item number he gave me directly into eBay and it came up correct part number and... about £250!  (And, ultimately, £36 shipping).

Just ordered it, fingers crossed...

[daveh_rav4]

Pleased to hear that it is working out for you Brendan... by saving the vehicle you are reducing your CO2 carbon footprint by not buying a new vehicle and doing your bit to save the planet; feel good about that. ^  🙂

[gjnorthall]

Hope all goes well. Usually this cat sells for £580 - around £700. Noticed a while back that a couple of sellers on eBay were at around £270 which was at odds with all other sellers  - presumably this is the one you've ordered. The BM part number etc is correct so this is an incredible bargain!

[Dippy]

Mods to delete if this is advertising, but in the hope that I save my fellow RAVers  some money - shop on eBay is "buycarspares2".  As said, this is the eBay shop of the supplier that BM Catalysts gave me.

[Dippy]

Cat was delivered to me in Lisbon at 9am this morning 🙂 So really prompt service.

No frills packaging (in bubble wrap within a cardboard box), minimum documentation, but the BM model number is stamped on it.  "Free fitting kit"  is two rather strange bolts and three nuts (does that sound right?); no gaskets, which I'm a bit surprised about.  I'd need to go and get gaskets from Mr T.  A generic note about DPFs saying firstly you must identify the reason your old one went, eg any engine defect or air leak that causes rich fueling, and secondly that replacing the lambda sensor may be a good idea.

I'm following another marque (petrol engine) discussion on another forum, where someone's been trying to track down a rough-running car for months, primarily because of an air leak. Having now located the DPF in my engine bay (rear centre) and considering the awful access plus the cautions about air leaks, I've chickened out at least for a bit; would prefer to pay someone 1-200 euros to do it properly who has diagnostics etc.

(This might be a good idea; decided instead to change the chainset on my wife's bike, screwed in the crank extractor, wondered why it wouldn't tighten much to push the crank off; then realised I hadn't taken the nut off the axle first...  🙃  It was 28C last night and I didn't sleep, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...)

TBC...

[gjnorthall]

The BM kits don't always have gaskets - you will be able to match up to the old ones if there is an exhaust fitting centre nearby - but given the cost, I'd simply order from Toyota. The two bolts with long plain shanks are for the connection to the exhaust. They're fitted with springs (use the old ones) to give some flexibility. The three nuts are for the heat shield studs. I'd be inclined to leave the lambda sensors at this stage - if being fitted by a garage, they will be able to check for correct response when the job is done - and in any event you're not experiencing cat issues currently.

With respect to the cause of failure - DPF's do have a finite life. Other causes of failure include inadequate driving regime for regeneration and excessive engine oil consumption.