Exhaust modification

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Guys...i really need some help here please.

Basically, as some of you may already be aware of, ive had an issue with excessive smoke from my exhaust and very high fuel consumption since ownership of my tiny Aygo in January 2017, its always niggled me as to what the problem was, some forumsters recommended a rolling test but i cant afford one, we’ve already installed a brand new genuine toyota cat and 2 sensors thinking that was the problem, and prior to that had our centre tte backbox welded in a few places, which slightly imprived things but recently we seem to be back to square one, especially with the fuel issue, currently getting 45 miles a notch.

Anyway, booked my car into my local Kwikfit this morning for a free backbox check, my hearts been telling me for awhile that it is the backbox causing my problems, only at 450.00+ for a new tte one i definitely cant afford that. The kwikfit guy confirmed the backbox is definitely shot and leaking in many places.

So, i need to replace it. I figure i have 2 options:

1. I could buy an after market Sportex exhaust off eBay 140.00...its centred in the middle, twin pipes, no idea how it’ll sit on or within the tte lower skirt we have, but it sounds terrible on the youtube vids specifically fitted to an Aygo like mine.

2. I buy a normal Aygo backbox, and modify it, by chopping the end pipe off both boxes and welding my tte end back onto the new box, hence voiding any warranty AND AND AND finding a way around the difference in diameter of the pipes because im almost certain the tte box has larger pipes.

Woooh...so what do you guys think? Im desperate to get this fixed prior to any snow falls soon🤯

[Planemo]

I still dont think its your back box causing the mpg issue (unless someone has stuck a potato up it) but if you need to replace it....

Easiest and cheapest way is to get a standard back box and take it to one of the custom exhaust places. They will do whatever is needed to attach the TTE tailpipe to the stock box, and they will line it up to fit the bumper. Different pipe sizes between both boxes wont be a problem as they will sort that. Maybe £50 to £100 labour at a guess.

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Planemo...1st in...cheers mate.

Def no patato's or bananas up it lol...did that to my dad back in the day.

I agree...that is the cheapest option...and 1 i prefer i think. Have you heard the sportex box on youtube by any chance?

Ill have to work on the labour chargers!

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

P.s if not the box...what do you think it could be? I recon if you drove her you'd agree with me maybe.

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Update people...i paid my welder friend a visit this evening...couldnt help myself...put my car on the ramp...found 1 tiny leak of water at a previous weld he did some months ago...he reconed its definitely not the backbox as Planemo stated...he touched up that tiny leak for me anyway...and tgen noticed the excessive white smoke as i reversed out and recommended i take it to a reputable mechanic for diagnosis.

So now im back to square 1...what is the issue? Now my hearts telling me the engine is a duff...maybe the last owner ran it solely on redex treatments. Maybe i should change the engine??? Seen a recon for 600.00...not bad. I just want a car that drives smooth...no eratic idling or smoke and a good fuel consumption. 

P.s ive ordered a new compression tester which should arrive next week...lets see what i find after the test.

My brain hurts🤪

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Now im thinking...head gasket...cracked cylinder head...etc. Ive bought a lemon. Feeling low about this. So far its cost me a cat and 2 sensors but im not too fussed at 135.00 loss on those items. But i really dont want to be chucking more money at other things that arent the cause.

P.S...she pulls beautifully, i can handle the notchy gears, she’s fun to drive, its just the white smoke and 200 miles on a full tank that get me down...she’s well cared for and serviced by us with genuine parts. I just dont get it

[Planemo]

Sam

I suggested a sniff test to check the head gasket back in April, along with a rolling road diagnostics. Both would have likely cost less than the £135 you have spent already.

 

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Sam

I suggested a sniff test to check the head gasket back in April, along with a rolling road diagnostics. Both would have likely cost less than the £135 you have spent already.

 

You most certainly did...i put my hands up...and i said i couldnt afford a rolling test...truth be told my late father was a mechanic of 60 years and damn good 1 too bless his soul...and i never saw him carrying out a rolling test on any vehicle...what im trying to say is maybe i like the old fashioned way of diagnosing things.

 

Hey tell me more about this sniff test again please...how does that work??

 

Cheers again Planemo.

[kisbell]

Sell it and get a newer one. Is it worth all the hassle. 

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

24 minutes ago, kisbell said:

Sell it and get a newer one. Is it worth all the hassle. 

You just said exactly what my loving hubby said an hour ago...he said...darling...let her go and 'll buy you a brand new 1...and an auto to make my life easier.

But i cant let go of her...i hate quitting...come on guys...id like to save her...shes only done 53k.

[kisbell]

👍Sounds like you should visit toyota then.  Part exchange you old one. 

[mrrusty]

old school diagnosis, white smoke was nearly always said to be water vapour in exhaust.

most probable cause was head gasket failure!! is your water level level dropping over time??

you need a proper diagnosis and a good toyota dealer.!

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

2 hours ago, mrrusty said:

old school diagnosis, white smoke was nearly always said to be water vapour in exhaust.

most probable cause was head gasket failure!! is your water level level dropping over time??

you need a proper diagnosis and a good toyota dealer.!

Mrrusty...thank you.

I checked my coolant level just this morning. Pink and fully topped up with no oily residue.

If it were water vapour surely it would have burnt off after a 100 miler trip no?

I recon it is head gasket failure. Ill be guessing forever.

Im still yet to do 2 tests...compression AND coil packs...its just too damn cold out there these days.

And to top EVERYTHING i noticed my heater vents are running much much cooler in the last 2 days...prior it would blow DAMN HOT AIR so much so id open my window...now its luke warm...

And so i give up for now

[Planemo]

On 11/17/2018 at 5:25 PM, SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS said:

my late father was a mechanic of 60 years and damn good 1 too bless his soul...and i never saw him carrying out a rolling test on any vehicle...what im trying to say is maybe i like the old fashioned way of diagnosing things.

Hey tell me more about this sniff test again please...how does that work?

Oddly enough a sniff test IS old school. Been used for many years. A sample of vapour is taken from the coolant header tank and passed through a detecting liquid which changes colour if exhaust gas is present. There shouldnt be any, and if the colour changes then exhaust gas is getting into the coolant system somewhere and thats usually the head gasket but could be a cracked cylinder head, block or any number of locations where the coolant could meet cylinder gases.

As for you comment re 'liking the old fashioned way of doing things',  thats a very valiant statement but the problem is that we are not talking about diagnosing old fashioned cars. Carburettors have been replaced with injectors, fuel pumps and regulators. Points and condensors have been replaced with coil packs and ECU's. Plain old exhausts have been replaced with numerous O2 sensors, EGR systems and fuelling being continually controlled by them on the fly. The list goes on. Even the injectors on the Aygo are sequential, unheard of until relatively recently as it needs a fair bit of ECU processing power. Not forgetting crank angle and cam phase sensors, 3D ECU maps for all load conditions and knock sensors. Just one problem on any of these will cause issues.

Give all this to an 'old fashioned' mechanic and they will either generally have a meltdown or bluff their way through it (at your cost).

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Guys...a quick question

Lets say my issue is the headgasket...that i have a small leak hence the white smoke even after warm up...high fuel consumption...rough idle etc...but no drop in oil or coolant...blah blah blah

Would i get away with using say the following and repair the issue...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/K-Seal-Permanent-Coolant-Repair-Head-Gasket-Radiator-Stop-Leak-K-Seal-Matrix/142863714517?hash=item21435748d5:g:aNAAAOSwt2pasXUD

[Wolds Warrior]

Its not a permanent repair just a stop gap and clogs the water jackets up from what ive seen.

Also eventually clogs up the cooling system (radiator etc), so it would need flushing out very well if you ever get it fixed and keep it.

Id say avoid to be fair.

[mrrusty]

you could try it, but the ten pound is better spent on a compression test!

[Planemo]

I agree with Chopstick. It's a bit like the old skool method of chucking an egg in the radiator to cure seals. A temporary repair which ruins everything it touches. Modern engines also have carefully designed water ways (unlike the old days) which vary in cross-section from the fairly large to the incredibly small, in order to keep water temp uniform throughout the block and head. Adding anything to the system which is designed to 'block' is incredibly risky at best. A 'get you home' method I grant you, but the reality is that I would consider the engine to be scrap in the long term.

As an aside, don't forget that you don't need to be losing water to have a blown head gasket. I had a Kawasaki 500cc twin a few years back which presented some head scratching - it would run 100% with no smoke nor loss of power but whenever it was in the 7000-9000rpm bracket under full load it would start to overheat, quickly as well. If it was kept in this rpm range you could actaully see the temp needle climbing. Come back out of this rpm and it would return to normal. It ran like this for about a year before I had enough. I pulled the head and confirmed that the head gasket was blown, but barely noticeable. It had failed between a bore and a very small waterway. This was not enough to allow the low pressure water to pass into the bore, but was enough for the high pressure combustion at high rpm to pass into the water system, pressurizing it and thereby reducing the efficiency. Luckily it never blew the header tank but it was a pain in the neck to diagnose because I couldn't use a sniff test as I couldn't recreate the symptoms whilst stationary. A new head gasket sorted it.

Due to the above, in conjunction with a sniff test and the fact that the Aygo doesn't have a temp gauge, it might be worth hooking up the Torque App via the OBD and running a data log of the coolant temps for a day, under all driving conditions (including long static idles and fast motorway work). Mine runs pretty much bang on 84 to 88 degrees no matter what the conditions. If it's outside of this it would be a good indication...

[alan333]

When a head gasket fails there are three things which can mix: coolant, oil and combustion gases.

If coolant is going anywhere it shouldn't then the coolant level will drop... unless it's being replaced by oil, in which case the coolant will be oily/dirty.  If it's mixing into the oil then the oil level will rise and there's a white smudge residue often evident on the inside of the oil filler cap etc.  When lots of coolant mixes with oil it turns a milky grey colour.  If it's mixing into the combustion chamber it gets burnt off along with the petrol/air mix but produces steam (appearing like white smoke) from the exhaust.  

If oil is going anywhere it shouldn't then the oil level will drop...unless it's being replaced by coolant, so the drop in level might not be evident...but the drop in coolant will be.  If oil is mixing with combustion gas it gets burnt off along with the petrol/air mix but produces blue smoke from the exhaust.

If combustion gas is getting into the coolant it'll bubble/boil it and turn it dirty/smelly (and the gas will show up on a sniff test of the header tank).  If combustion gas is mixing with oil there will be pressure when you remove the oil cap, but often not enough to be noticeable.

 

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

12 hours ago, alan333 said:

When a head gasket fails there are three things which can mix: coolant, oil and combustion gases.

If coolant is going anywhere it shouldn't then the coolant level will drop... unless it's being replaced by oil, in which case the coolant will be oily/dirty.  If it's mixing into the oil then the oil level will rise and there's a white smudge residue often evident on the inside of the oil filler cap etc.  When lots of coolant mixes with oil it turns a milky grey colour.  If it's mixing into the combustion chamber it gets burnt off along with the petrol/air mix but produces steam (appearing like white smoke) from the exhaust.  

If oil is going anywhere it shouldn't then the oil level will drop...unless it's being replaced by coolant, so the drop in level might not be evident...but the drop in coolant will be.  If oil is mixing with combustion gas it gets burnt off along with the petrol/air mix but produces blue smoke from the exhaust.

If combustion gas is getting into the coolant it'll bubble/boil it and turn it dirty/smelly (and the gas will show up on a sniff test of the header tank).  If combustion gas is mixing with oil there will be pressure when you remove the oil cap, but often not enough to be noticeable.

 

Just what i needed. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Paid a visit to yet another mechanic today...came highly recommended by a friend...thought id give it ago...he looked over my engine n levels etc...then moved to the back box...blocked the tail pipe...asked me to rev it...n said yup my love...def the back box...reconned it was blowing leaks all over the place...hence high fuel consump with me having to rev more to compensate etc added to the rough idling and blowing sound.

Soooo...ive ordered the exhaust buts from Euro today...will fit it all at the weekend...new mid pipe...then back box...new clamps etc...the cat n sensors are brand new anyway...after that to the welders to have it modified to add my tte centre pipe...voids any warranty but at 30.00 for a new back box who cares.

Fingers crossed

[Wolds Warrior]

11 hours ago, SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS said:

Just what i needed. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Paid a visit to yet another mechanic today...came highly recommended by a friend...thought id give it ago...he looked over my engine n levels etc...then moved to the back box...blocked the tail pipe...asked me to rev it...n said yup my love...def the back box...reconned it was blowing leaks all over the place...hence high fuel consump with me having to rev more to compensate etc added to the rough idling and blowing sound.

Soooo...ive ordered the exhaust buts from Euro today...will fit it all at the weekend...new mid pipe...then back box...new clamps etc...the cat n sensors are brand new anyway...after that to the welders to have it modified to add my tte centre pipe...voids any warranty but at 30.00 for a new back box who cares.

Fingers crossed

Fingers crossed!

For what they cost, especially for a full system, its worth doing to rule it out.

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Evening All

Picked up my new exhaust today....yay...yeah right lol.

Its a Klarius. The back box, mid pipe, and a clamp...i should have bought 2 new rubber mount thingys but the old ones look ok...i prefer new but my other half said nope no need!

Now he’s saying...rather than modify this newxback box to attach my tte centre pipe...we should leave the new exhaust as is...maybe mesh out the centre shape on the rear lower skirt...

Im wondering whether the new exhaust would sit safely behind the skirt though...yes it’d be hidden...but im sure it’d probably touch...maybe not if the tail end pipe bends downwards...i dont know.

All i do know is we start the job tomm at 9am...on a sunday!!!

Will keep you all posted!

[Wolds Warrior]

I’d just fit it and see if it sorts the issue out and worry about the looks later on. 

It wont touch the skirt as there is loads of space under there. 

 

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Afternoon All.

Ok...so we've fitted the new back box and mid pipe. Not an easy job...freezing Sunday...working at the road side! But we managed it...yay!

A quick moan first...we weren't  too impressed with the Klarius brand ..where the mid pipe meets the back box pipe...the original Toyota mid pipe had a longer sleeve to slide into the back box pipe before it gets clamped...a good 3 or 4cm sleeve...whereas the Klarius brand only had a cm if not less. It went on and clamped up ok. Had a slight water leak at first hence we had to undo the clamp and move it a little. Seems to have stopped dripping at that point...for now!

Moving on to the important bit..well its still smoking as it did before...i know i know...like 6 various mechanics reconed it was the back box that was causing my high fuel consumption and possibly the smoke. Im still yet to have my centre TTE tail pipe chopped off the old box and welded onto the new one!

Anyway...im still yet to fill up and see what miles i get after fitting this new exhaust system. I Currently have 2 notches left and covered 140 miles...crazy!

Moving on again...At this point we thought we'd check the spark plugs and do a quick coil pack test again. From the right side looking at the engine bay...the 1st spark plug thread seemed pretty clean...but the 2nd and 3rd threads looked black...no idea if they were oily...was hard to tell if it was oil. Wish i had taken a pic now. All the tips of each spark were light brown of which i believe is a good sign. Saying that it pours with water at the tail pipe which is also supposed to be a positive...god knows!

Upon removing 1 coil pack at a time with the engine running...the engine slightly stumbled at first and carried on running. I assume the coil packs are okay.

We then removed the oil filler cap...wow...ive been checking this regularly but Its the first time that i actually witnessed some mayo...not so much...but its present...and inside the engine looking down into it.

So...NOW im thinking...if its still smoking (we're unsure what my fuel consumption is going to be like post the new back box etc)...could it be the head gasket or piston rings in the end that need replacing...or something worse!

Does the maf sensor play any part in any of this i wonder.

Cheers for any input guys. I really dont want to give up on her by getting rid hence i Appreciate your patience.

My mot is due in March i think...bit stressed if i cant find a fix and the tester sees smoke and fails me!

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Gosh i said quite a bit earlier looking back at it...i am so sorry to bore you guys.

Anyway...just been out on a test drive...drives a zillion times better, im impressed, much smoother. Like a new car literally.

Also i see no mayo under the oil cap anymore.

However, the exhaust sounds a bit blowy, im gona try to attach a vid ive just taken.

Also theres a nasty smell from the exhaust, is it because its new maybe?