MPG issue after service and tyre change.

[kithmo]

Blame it on Brexit, like everything else. 😒

[Gerg]

7 hours ago, birdseye said:

I've taken great interest in the mpg on my Prius which is fitted with 15" wheels, for me that was the whole point of buying it. We do more or less the same local trips each week so I know more or less what each trip mpg will be allowing for the weather. 

Once a month I go to a coin fair at the Motor Museum near the NEC, Its 25 miles from where I live and there is a long stretch of the M42 that is level and slight sloping down. The first year of owning the car I got 75- 82mpg going and around 70 coming back. After the 1st service I struggled to get 70 going. Its 2nd service was late November, last Sunday I went as usual and it just turned to 60mpg as I pulled in to park so something definitely not right there.

I'm sure this is a case of teaching my grandma to suck eggs, but just in case, as you're mpg chasing, how about these long shots....

Have the servicing dealer dropped the pressure in your tyres at the service (maybe you were running them at slightly elevated pressures or your gauge doesn't agree with theirs)?

Has the tracking moved out of spec. after a pothole etc.? (I believe this is checked during a major service, (but adjustment is an extra cost), so should be good).

Have you got the heating controls set differently to how you had them when the car was new?

Does the hand(foot) brake feel like its been adjusted during the service (i.e. could it be dragging sightly)?

FWIW, the 'factory-fill' oil could be from a different manufacturer to the Toyota dealer supplied oil in Europe, although this must surely be of miniscule relevance.  But it could benefit the cars during official emissions testing and road tests if a slightly thinner (or running-in?) oil was used during the original build.  Just wildly speculating here!

 

[birdseye]

14 hours ago, Gerg said:

I'm sure this is a case of teaching my grandma to suck eggs, but just in case, as you're mpg chasing, how about these long shots....

Have the servicing dealer dropped the pressure in your tyres at the service (maybe you were running them at slightly elevated pressures or your gauge doesn't agree with theirs)?

Has the tracking moved out of spec. after a pothole etc.? (I believe this is checked during a major service, (but adjustment is an extra cost), so should be good).

Have you got the heating controls set differently to how you had them when the car was new?

Does the hand(foot) brake feel like its been adjusted during the service (i.e. could it be dragging sightly)?

FWIW, the 'factory-fill' oil could be from a different manufacturer to the Toyota dealer supplied oil in Europe, although this must surely be of miniscule relevance.  But it could benefit the cars during official emissions testing and road tests if a slightly thinner (or running-in?) oil was used during the original build.  Just wildly speculating here!

 

Tyres are as normal,  heating is as we always have it at 17.5, not sure about the parking brake but I would think that would overheat the pads if it was not running clear. I think you may be right about the factory fill being different to what is used in UK.

  Another thing I noticed was after the 1st service was the car took longer to warm up till the engine cut off, seems worse now even allowing for cold weather.

When sitting in traffic and the engine is off it will come on either to charge a low Battery or keep the engine temperature up, it seems to be going full pelt when it does that and I've actually noticed the mpg of the current trip start counting down while I'm sitting there, is that normal ?

  After shopping last week we went back to the car and pulled out just 100 mtrs to a queue at traffic lights,  the current trip mpg read as 14 and started counting down and got to 7 before the engine cut off. i don't recall anything like that happening the 1st year, I'm wondering if the fuel/air ratio is out of sync or the cold start enrichment is not set right.

[PeteB]

Have you checked what the climate setting is on?

Mine is on ECO most of the time, but if I cycle to FAST using the AUTO button, the engine comes on a lot more with a corresponding hit on mpg.

[birdseye]

15 minutes ago, PeteB said:

Have you checked what the climate setting is on?

Mine is on ECO most of the time, but if I cycle to FAST using the AUTO button, the engine comes on a lot more with a corresponding hit on mpg.

Always on Eco,  the  Auto  button starts the fans on full blast so we prefer to do our own settings,  does your car do anything similar to what I've written above re the mpg counting down when not actually moving?

[PeteB]

32 minutes ago, birdseye said:

...does your car do anything similar to what I've written above re the mpg counting down when not actually moving?

sure does.  All four versions of the Prius I've driven since 2002 will do that.  In cold weather I can get down to 1 mpg when driving around the village between the chemist, local shop, post box etc.

If there's enough charge, I try to select EV mode (setting speed limiter to 24 to avoid it kicking me out of EV mode) so that I'm minimising the short hops on cold, and try to save the warm-up period for when I'm on the dual carriageway.  When it's very cold though, even just tickling the accelerator provokes the "excess acceleration" message and drops me out of EV.

Occasionally, if I park by the beach for some "chill time" and it's cold, I'll leave the car READY and can watch the mpg figure drop (quite considerably if I've only done a few miles - I reset trip A each morning, and B at each tank fill).  [BTW - I reset the 'lifetime' mpg, EV% & average speeds each time the car is serviced by selecting ODO and holding the TRIP button in for a few seconds].

I always used to set my Climate temperature to 18°C, but since going onto so called blood thinning pills I feel the cold more and nowadays have it on 22/23°C even with my coat on! (plus heated seat, something I used to hate).  Can't be helping my economy.

[kithmo]

1 hour ago, birdseye said:

Always on Eco,  the  Auto  button starts the fans on full blast so we prefer to do our own settings,  does your car do anything similar to what I've written above re the mpg counting down when not actually moving?

The fan starting on full blast in Auto sounds odd, mine doesn't start blowing anything until the engine has been running for a few minutes in Auto. The windscreen demist button starts the fans blowing straight away.

I have noticed my mpg is down on last winter, but I put it down to using Shell V-power for the last couple of tankfuls, as I seem to get better mpg on standard unleaded. Going back on to Shell fuelsave next tank.

[birdseye]

Finally got around to changing the oil, the dipstick pump was a failure, clearly the Prius has a very narrow tube, I got a 6mm tube from B& Q, went out to the carpark to make sure it fitted part the way in and it appeared to be o.k. Got home and tried it again and halfway down it went very tight , I was aware of what would happen if it got stuck and decided to take it back and get a 5mm tube but non in stock.

I decided yesterday to raise the car and drain it from below, I saw a Youtube video of a Gen 4 having it's oil changed from off small ramps, without me having ramps anymore I hit on the idea to cut an old 30mm plank into suitable pieces, jack up the wheel, push the board under, lower the jack, put another board under the jack and raise the wheel to get a second board under the wheel.  Doing this repeatably on both wheels I got 4 pieces under each and it was completely safe, nothing could collapse.

Underneath it's easy to reach the 3 X10mm  bolts holding the little plastic cover, then the 14mm drain plug is clearly visible, I ran the engine to warm back up, switched off and drained it into a container. I left the filter as I wanted to tip the oil out but it is more awkward to reach and needs a special tool .

Refilled to the original factory spec of around 7-8mm below the top mark on the dipstick and set off to test it.  ( I did check the level the day I collected the car)

We've been out on one of our regular local trips today and it seems to be vastly improved like it was the first year we had the car. Clearly my car was not filled with  0W-20 by Listers and combined with 5mm of overfill cannot be trusted to do a simple oil change,  just shoddy careless work. I'm going to cancel the service contract so not only will they lose my custom for servicing but also my next vehicle will not come from them either.

[Byzii]

Glad you got it working, but what is this about filling oil 7-8mm below the top mark?

That's a very strange method of filling oil, there's usually a very precise amount listed in the manual for both dry fills and service fills, and with or without filter change. On every car I've heard of filling exactly the service fill amount leads to oil being right on the top mark. Heck, 7-8mm below top mark is almost low mark.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Under Block Exemption, Toyota cannot insist dealers use a particular grade or type of oil when servicing cars - hence the wording 'preferred oil' used in owners manuals, etc. 0W-20 is Toyota's preferred oil for both hybrid and petrol engines (petrol from the introduction of Optimal Drive) in the UK.

[birdseye]

1 hour ago, Byzii said:

Glad you got it working, but what is this about filling oil 7-8mm below the top mark?

That's a very strange method of filling oil, there's usually a very precise amount listed in the manual for both dry fills and service fills, and with or without filter change. On every car I've heard of filling exactly the service fill amount leads to oil being right on the top mark. Heck, 7-8mm below top mark is almost low mark.

7mm is nowhere near the low mark, it's not even halfway between 2&3, I still work in imperial 😀 and it came to me direct from the factory 1/4" below the top mark so maybe 6mm is closer

Filling to the top mark is clearly wrong! If you look in the cars handbook page 127 it shows a diagram of the dipstick numbered 1,2 & 3  (1) is marked as low,  (3) which is the top spot on the dipstick is marked as excessive.

From that you can presume that the correct level is somewhere between 2 & 3,  certainly not on the excessive  mark and definitely not 5mm above it as was done to my car and many others from what i have read here, so how can a precise amount result in that? clearly something is wrong at the dealers and the engine is not warmed up so they drain cold oil and don't wait for it to finish trickling out

,

[wass]

22 hours ago, birdseye said:

 

We've been out on one of our regular local trips today and it seems to be vastly improved like it was the first year we had the car. Clearly my car was not filled with  0W-20 by Listers and combined with 5mm of overfill cannot be trusted to do a simple oil change,  just shoddy careless work. I'm going to cancel the service contract so not only will they lose my custom for servicing but also my next vehicle will not come from them either.

I found this 5w30 trick was happening on every service. So much that I would deliberately travel around 200 or so miles after the (dis) service and then change the oil for the correct grade in order to get the car running on the right specification of oil. There's nothing you can do about it . If you change your own oil and cancel the service regime you commit the mortal sin of not having a FSH.Its a no win situation which i have been at a loss to fathom. One has to pay for a clever ***** to service the car with the wrong oil and then stamp the service book and then one has to carry out the service oneself in order to ensure everything is done properly.I once refuse to buy a 2nd hand car on the grounds that it had a FSH completed by a certain dealership. The salesperson even offered sizeable discounts however, I knew most of the guys who would have been "completing" the "service".This was a certain Jaguar dealership.

[Catlover]

20 hours ago, birdseye said:

7mm is nowhere near the low mark, it's not even halfway between 2&3, I still work in imperial 😀 and it came to me direct from the factory 1/4" below the top mark so maybe 6mm is closer

Filling to the top mark is clearly wrong! If you look in the cars handbook page 127 it shows a diagram of the dipstick numbered 1,2 & 3  (1) is marked as low,  (3) which is the top spot on the dipstick is marked as excessive.

From that you can presume that the correct level is somewhere between 2 & 3,  certainly not on the excessive  mark and definitely not 5mm above it as was done to my car and many others from what i have read here, so how can a precise amount result in that? clearly something is wrong at the dealers and the engine is not warmed up so they drain cold oil and don't wait for it to finish trickling out

,

I dont understand this 7mm below the top marker is correct. After a service I would expect the level to be at the top level, not above it and not below it. Anything above would be over fill (excessive), anything below would be robbing the car and customer of oil. To me it is important after a service to see the oil level at the top end of normal. During use a car may use some oil, if that is so then anything in the "normal" zone would be acceptable, BUT if I was about to start any journey of significant mileage I would defo make sure the oil level was at the high level at the start of the journey AND be checking it during the journey to make sure it didnt drop significantly towards the bottom of the "normal" area. As well as a lubricant, oil is a coolant...... the more of it (up to the max mark) the better IMO.   

[birdseye]

33 minutes ago, Catlover said:

I dont understand this 7mm below the top marker is correct. After a service I would expect the level to be at the top level, not above it and not below it. Anything above would be over fill (excessive), anything below would be robbing the car and customer of oil. To me it is important after a service to see the oil level at the top end of normal. During use a car may use some oil, if that is so then anything in the "normal" zone would be acceptable, BUT if I was about to start any journey of significant mileage I would defo make sure the oil level was at the high level at the start of the journey AND be checking it during the journey to make sure it didnt drop significantly towards the bottom of the "normal" area. As well as a lubricant, oil is a coolant...... the more of it (up to the max mark) the better IMO. 

Even though the top mark in the handbook is marked as excessive?? and the vehicle is not factory filled to the top mark?? 

  if the oil was 1/2 way down the dipstick would you panic and think the engine will seize up because the dipstick seemingly shows there is not enough oil in the car?  it's not as though the dipstick goes to the bottom of the sump is it but merely extends around 30mm into the oil bath. 

I've been Googling this and there are large numbers of 'fill er right up' and saying overfilling will not cause any problems etc but there are a few from techies who clearly know what they are talking about. It's made clear that that the two marks on dipsticks are extreme markers, do not go under the lower and do not go above the upper.

I have to ask. you have a Gen4 Prius same as me, are you saying that it uses oil so you have to top it up after a journey?    I didn't notice any drop on the level of mine even after it's first 5000 miles as it went for it's first service so I'm guessing yours maybe is business use and you do a very high mileage?

 

[PeteB]

I read it as Normal (2) = anywhere between and including the two marks.

Above (3) = Excessive, below (1) = Low.

Mine was up to the top mark when new, although it wouldn't have bother me if it was below the top one given my experience with all four generations of Prius not dropping a single mm in oil level between services until around 100,000 on the clock.  A far cry from my early cars (1960s built) that would have only needed a slightly higher oil consumption to be talking about mpg for oil!

[Catlover]

1 hour ago, birdseye said:

Even though the top mark in the handbook is marked as excessive?? and the vehicle is not factory filled to the top mark?? 

  if your the oil was 1/2 way down the dipstick would you panic and think the engine will seize up because the dipstick seemingly shows there is not enough oil in the car?  it's not as though the dipstick goes to the bottom of the sump is it but merely extends around 30mm into the oil bath. 

I've been Googling this and there are large numbers of 'fill er right up' and saying overfilling will not cause any problems etc but there are a few from techies who clearly know what they are talking about. It's made clear that that the two marks on dipsticks are extreme markers, do not go under the lower and do not go above the upper.

I have to ask. you have a Gen4 Prius same as me, are you saying that it uses oil so you have to top it up after a journey?    I didn't notice any drop on the level of mine even after it's first 5000 miles as it went for it's first service so I'm guessing yours maybe is business use and you do a very high mileage?

 

The question in your 2nd paragraph is answered in the sentence starting in line 5 of my post. 

Re the question in your para 4, no where have I stated nor implied my Priuscis using any oil, and to make it clear, no neither my current Gen4 nor my Gen3 before it uses oil, but that’s only 3k miles in the Gen4 over 5 months of private use only - I am well retired.

Years ago dipsticks were marked Min and Max, anything in between was acceptable. But it would be illogical to have a Max line then say but only fill up to a point (not marked! ) 7-8mm below.

If I had originated the diagram you show, the arrow coming down to the top mark I would have shown going up, showing that anything above the top mark is excessive, just as anything up to (or below the bottom mark) is low.

Interestingly, my wife drives an Auris hybrid, and that Owners Manual shows a diagram that says the lower mark indicates “Low”, and the upper mark “Full”.

[jgodfrey]

Had a similar experience with my 2011 Auris. After the service in March the mpg has dropped by about 5mpg from 58 in the summer and 52 in winter to 53 and 48 respectively. All other variables remain the same. Had a silver service carried out and they said that they had used 'hybrid oil'. I strongly suspect that 5w30 oil was used. The sercice and mot was done for £100 so my thoughts are that the cheaper oil was used.

[Catlover]

5 hours ago, jgodfrey said:

Had a similar experience with my 2011 Auris. After the service in March the mpg has dropped by about 5mpg from 58 in the summer and 52 in winter to 53 and 48 respectively. All other variables remain the same. Had a silver service carried out and they said that they had used 'hybrid oil'. I strongly suspect that 5w30 oil was used. The sercice and mot was done for £100 so my thoughts are that the cheaper oil was used.

I had the wifes Auris hybrid 2010 serviced and MOT'd under the Silver Service deal at £100 and I specified when I booked in over the phone 0W-20 must be used, repeated when I went to the service desk. The invoice states 0W-20 oil was used. 

[jgodfrey]

23 minutes ago, Catlover said:

I had the wifes Auris hybrid 2010 serviced and MOT'd under the Silver Service deal at £100 and I specified when I booked in over the phone 0W-20 must be used, repeated when I went to the service desk. The invoice states 0W-20 oil was used. 

Interesting, I didn't ask before it went in but checked when it was collected. I'm not sure what hybrid oil is, but there can't be much profit in that £100 deal. I can't understand why I've seen such a dramatic drop in mpg since March if it wasn't the oil. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota's preferred engine oil used for 'optimal drive' petrols and hybrids is 0W-20.

[wass]

On 12/16/2018 at 1:50 PM, kithmo said:

Blame it on Brexit, like everything else. 😒

The universal answer to everything, good or bad! 🙂

[birdseye]

I've jut done a simple viscosity test and the results are surprising, using the plastic cap of a large aerosol I drilled a hole in the centre. put my finger over the hole & poured in 0W-20 to the top. let it start running and press my kitchen timer. The result to empty the cup was 1 minute 47 seconds. I cleaned the cup & poured in the oil I had removed from my recently serviced car.

After 3 minutes the cup was only half empty so I didn't stand waiting as it had 100% proved my point.   So now I have evidence of their lying because they have denied putting in the wrong oil. Perhaps i should invite the manager to come and view a demonstration.

 

[jgodfrey]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:11 PM, birdseye said:

I've jut done a simple viscosity test and the results are surprising, using the plastic cap of a large aerosol I drilled a hole in the centre. put my finger over the hole & poured in 0W-20 to the top. let it start running and press my kitchen timer. The result to empty the cup was 1 minute 47 seconds. I cleaned the cup & poured in the oil I had removed from my recently serviced car.

After 3 minutes the cup was only half empty so I didn't stand waiting as it had 100% proved my point.   So now I have evidence of their lying because they have denied putting in the wrong oil. Perhaps i should invite the manager to come and view a demonstration.

 

Thanks for this info. I'm thinking that there's virtually no profit in these silver and gold services so they are cost cutting where they can and engine oil is an easy, 'invisible' way to do so. As another poster suggested, I've just bought 5L of Petronas 0w20 engine oil and will give this to the garage to use each time it goes in for a service from now on. At least this way I know what spec of oil goes into it, but to be honest I'd rather pay a little extra for them to use the correct oil!

[QuantumFireball]

On 12/28/2018 at 2:39 PM, wass said:

I found this 5w30 trick was happening on every service. So much that I would deliberately travel around 200 or so miles after the (dis) service and then change the oil for the correct grade in order to get the car running on the right specification of oil. There's nothing you can do about it . If you change your own oil and cancel the service regime you commit the mortal sin of not having a FSH.Its a no win situation which i have been at a loss to fathom. One has to pay for a clever ***** to service the car with the wrong oil and then stamp the service book and then one has to carry out the service oneself in order to ensure everything is done properly.I once refuse to buy a 2nd hand car on the grounds that it had a FSH completed by a certain dealership. The salesperson even offered sizeable discounts however, I knew most of the guys who would have been "completing" the "service".This was a certain Jaguar dealership.

I stopped taking mine to the dealer once the warranty was up, FSH be damned! I still bring it in for the Hybrid Health Check, but I do the oil and filters myself. I try and keep the receipts for the service items, hopefully that'll be worth something to the next owner.

[Catlover]

On 12/31/2018 at 1:24 PM, jgodfrey said:

Thanks for this info. I'm thinking that there's virtually no profit in these silver and gold services so they are cost cutting where they can and engine oil is an easy, 'invisible' way to do so. As another poster suggested, I've just bought 5L of Petronas 0w20 engine oil and will give this to the garage to use each time it goes in for a service from now on. At least this way I know what spec of oil goes into it, but to be honest I'd rather pay a little extra for them to use the correct oil!

Why not state when you book in that you want 0W-20 engine oil. They either will sorry Sir, we use engine oil approved by Toyota but it may not be 0-20, or No problem Sir, or we do have to charge extra for 0W-20 which will be £x. If they offer to put 0W-20 in just make sure when you get their to remind service desk. Basically what I did. If "you and I" simply accept ehat they want to put in they will continue to do it thinking it acceptable, when in my case its not.