Motec Ecu

[midmotorsteve]

so once the cars back and i've paid off the tubby conversion, from my reading it seems that really once a free flowing exhaust is on its all down to mapping to get lots of power. (and keeping charge temps down).

Would you see a much better gain by saving and getting a motec ecu, than say a unichip?

[Dame]

In the long run yes - since the Motec is a replacement ECU you can do tons more with it. However, you would also be looking at spending big money on all the other upgrades. As ever my primary warning is watch the insurance, premiums can rise to unacceptable levels with too many mods :(.

[midmotorsteve]

as i was expecting to drive it out the garage with all the work done last monday mines currently insure fully comp for £550

with the following declared:

Coil overs

Strut braces

wheels

samco'd

Blitz filter

hks pullies

hks head gasket

ARP studs

Fast road cams

Oil catch can

Decat

This would go down to :

coilovers

Strut braces

wheels

oil catch can

Turbo conversion

wouldn't have thought it'd be much more, still a UK car after all :)

[Dame]

depends - some companies hate turbo conversions.... you may have to shop around.

[veilside_mr2]

The motec ecu is scandelous prices, been quoted like 3K+ for it.

I really cant see the sense in paying for that unless ur really wantin a BIG BIG power car.

[midmotorsteve]

i've seen them for £800 +vat and mapping

[veilside_mr2]

yeah, its the mappin the charge the stupid prices for, obviously that 3k woz with a very overpriced company, but it will still b touchin 2k im sure.

[pizza boy]

Yea plus its not gonna be a 1 day mapping shesh...prolly more like a week odd...and even then itll come back to iron the odd problem out. All the while the car will be gettin spanked on the RR...the costs are just too much to justify unless your trying to make a race car or are a rich drug peddler like Jimlad! :P

[KiwiMR2]

If your SERIOUS about doing an aftermarket then I can put you in touch with someone who knows HEAPS!!! a GURU with MR2's & Motecs...has at least 3 MR2's and has a couple of motecs, power fc & has tested and handful of ecu's etc. Either motec of power fc in my opinion, however Iv'e seen on here good results with unichip (pizzaboy & Jimlad) but they would get more out of the above i reakon.

Cheers

KiwiMR2

[Jesus]

If you want fully mappable/programmable for less money you could go for the Emerald MD3K ECU.

It has the features that MoTeC has, but for less money. Works out about £550 + VAT, plus you get the software to map yourself (or your intelligent friend) which runs on any 32-Bit Windows platform. Comes with all the 3D graphs etc for easy visual mapping.

I looked into MoTeC not so long back. I believe it was the M400. Costs around £1000 plus rolling road time... or you could take it away for your £1000 with a base map with similar mods to what you've got. Obviously there's no point in doing it this way, because you would almost be better off with stock. Taking it with a base map would just be to get the car in a working state to play with really.

If my mate manages to remap my stock ECU [see previous thread of mine], I shall let people know. Looks good so far. :D

[pizza boy]

Either motec of power fc in my opinion, however Iv'e seen on here good results with unichip (pizzaboy & Jimlad) but they would get more out of the above i reakon.

Its all about the munney Kiwi. The MoTeC I would of course go for...but only if I was running a groupA parts engine heh. MoTeC, imo, is not worth it unless youre planning masses of mods internally etc.

[veilside_mr2]

Either motec of power fc in my opinion, however Iv'e seen on here good results with unichip (pizzaboy & Jimlad) but they would get more out of the above i reakon.

Its all about the munney Kiwi. The MoTeC I would of course go for...but only if I was running a groupA parts engine heh. MoTeC, imo, is not worth it unless youre planning masses of mods internally etc.

yeah i agree, i`m stickin with the unichip, seems like the best value for money.

[KiwiMR2]

Its all about the munney Kiwi. The MoTeC I would of course go for...but only if I was running a groupA parts engine heh. MoTeC, imo, is not worth it unless youre planning masses of mods internally etc.

yeah i agree, i`m stickin with the unichip,seems like the best value for money

Same argument the GURU I mention has already addressed...Im at work so don't have the time to seleclt all the relavant stuff you I'll let you lot read it all :)

Mmm, Boost wrote:

I'm sure there'd be something more cost effective than a Motec though surely

No there isn't. All you cheapskates out there need to learn that the real cost of an item isn't just it's purchase price, and you shouldn't spend the least amount possible to do something. Things are cheap for a reason, it's really a question of how many times you want to do a job. Pay a one time premium or pay over and over again for the same poor quality job.

Cost is defined this way. If you buy something (Link,Haltech,Autronic,etc etc) that isn't capable of doing the job (which IMHO they aren't) then you've just wasted the entire cost of install and the cost of a blown motor as well, and it's still going to cost you the price of doing it properly. If you buy something that is more than capable of doing the job (Motec) then the only money you waste is the difference between something that will do the job and what you paid. Plus you don't have the hassle of a blown motor

Right now I haven't got the time to cover this subject fully, but if I were to detail how I would build a reliable high HP 3S-GTE, then you would see why there is only one ECU that's worth the price of admission. Sure there are other ECU's that can produce the power, that's the easy bit. The reliable part of the equation is what's hard, and for that you need to run a lot of ancillary stuff like Thermo fans, Water injection/spray, Boost Control, Electric Water Pumps, and in the case of the Auto GT-T the transmission, most cheap ECUs don't have the spare I/O's or the capability of running some of these complicated devices.

Oh and BTW how much more expensive do you think the Motec is? You might be suprised just how little price difference the is when it comes down to the total cost of ownership

MarkCL wrote:

All_Fours wrote:

I would like to know what it is about the Motec that is so much better.

Me too - coz basically IMHO it isn't. The Autronic is being used on big HP 3S-GTE's as well as MoTeC. The SMC and SM2 can even have auto-tune options which is something that the MoTeC doesn't do AFAIK?

MoTeC is unquestionably superior, but don't take it from me; have a look for yourself:

www.motec.com.au

www.autronic.com

www.haltech.com.au

Key features to consider include:

Individual cylinder fuel and timing trims

Large number of fully user definable auxiliary outputs (particularly PWM)

Large number of fully user definable auxillary inputs

Full compatibility with stock sensors

Other points to consider: do you really think it's an accident that all 3 cars in the 8 second club run MoTeCs? Apparently even the HKS R33 drag car has an M8 hidden under the dash.

Who won the tender to supply ECUs for all the V8 supercars?

When was the last time Autronic released a new ECU?

Finally, MoTeC have had a form of Autotune that actually works for many years, if it were actually possible to fully automatically tune an ECU they'd offer that feature as well.

Quote:

At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Mark

Does that mean you have hands on experience installing and tuning a MoTeC or Autronic?

BBBrad wrote:

Fivebob, how much is a good motec setup cost? Buy cost, extras, install and tune. If u were setting up a custom street/strip or drag car, would u use a different motec comp compared to if u were just setting up one for a road car such as a caldina?

Would also love to read an article on how to build a bullet proof 3sgte.

In lieu of Fivebob's response, I'm about to install my M48 in my '98 MR2 turbo, I'm not sure how much they are these days, but budget between $3000 and $5000 for the ECU (depending on model and options), wiring harness and connectors. I don't need to add any sensors or triggers as the MoTeC will run with the stock ones. I expect it'll take me about 4 hours or so to install, so say $200-300 for that. This is for an install that can be reverted back to the stock ECU in about 5 minutes (not possible with anything else except a Power FC). Tuning has more to do with the engine and tuner than the ECU so I'd consider that a generic cost.

KiwiMR2 wrote:

Hey Fivebob....what are your feelings about Power Fc's with Rev III 3sgte's as a cheaper option than Motec?? or are they cheaper?? I think they can be had for about $1400-$1500 with a hand controller.

For the Gen III IMO they are the best plug and play option, but you need to add the DataLogit if you're going to do anything with them. However, while they are good and you can make high HP with them, they do not have the necessary features to make a reliable (100,000kms+) high HP (450+) 3S-GTE.

I have one in my stock Gen III, with DataLogit, just waiting on my WBO2 to arrive from the US before I start tuning it. FWIW on the stock settings it runs very well, though I seem to have a problem with the boost only going to 8PSI, not sure if it's the ECU though, and until I get the WB I'm happy to leave it there.

Cost is currently 98,000yen + shipping , works out to around $1700-$1800 + GST if you get caught. I wouldn't bother with the H/C, save your money for the DataLogit instead.

According to my sources there is a Gen II option available, not sure who (apart from Phoenix Power) makes them though.

As I said earlier, I don't have time right now to properly debate this subject, and I already know from the responses I see here that it will be the same argument I've had before which goes like this

"Brand x has the same features as Motec."

"Actually no it doesn't. Does it do .... or ...."

"No, but you don't need those features, and anyway they're too complicated to set up"

"Err, you do need those features, and they're not hard to set up, Motec has a very good user interface"

"There isn't a local tuner that knows Motec"

"You don't need a local tuner, you can do it yourself with Motec"

..... ad infinitum until I get bored with the repetitive and ill-informed nature of the debate and give up and just enjoy my Motec knowing that I have all the ECU I'll ever need (unless I buy an old F1 car).

So now before I start this, I want all who wish to debate (not argue) the merits, or otherwise, of the various systems, to do what I did when evaluating the systems. That is compare all the features, download all the software and manuals, and try to set up the systems for a 3S-GTE from scratch. After doing this you will be in a position to discuss the merits of each system, not just repeat in parrot fashion all the spurious arguments you have seen elsewhere on the internet.

When you've done that (and I've updated myself with the latest software/manuals), then, and only then, will I start by the discussion. Not with the relative merits of each system, but with the topic at hand, the 3S-GTE, it's faults and how to avoid the pitfalls by utilising the ECU's features.

In the meantime if you wish to continue with uninformed discussion on the subject, go ahead, at least I'll know who has an open mind and who to ignore when the real debate begins

Before anyone accuses me of being biased in favour of Motec because I own one, you're wrong, I'm biased towards Motec because I did the evaluation of the software and hardware (which, BTW, is what I do for a living) and IMHO it came out on top, had fewer faults, and had all the features I required. That was before the new windows software came out, and it's a quantum leap from the old DOS based version

If someone can prove to me (by rational debate) that there is a better option then I'll probably go out and buy one to see if it's as good as it's made out to be, I surely have enough cars that need an aftermarket ECU and I'm not afraid to try something different, but I do need to know that anything I use will do the job and continue to do it for many years to come, as I never intend to sell any of my growing fleet of vehicles

Alright now I have some time let me kick off the discussion, and yes MarkCL, by the time we've finished this discussion I will justify my view that the other ECU's are not capable of producing the same HP with the same reliability as Motec

Over the years there have been a few attempts to stop 3S-GTE from failing. However all of these attempts have been solutions for problems that weren’t properly defined. If you don’t know what’s going wrong how can you fix it? This strategy brought about several urban myths about the 3S-GTE, like “you need a Supra fuel pump”, or even “a dual feed fuel rail is the answer”. An answer to what I ask? To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever put a fuel pressure & flow sensor on and logged the data, either before or after these mods. If they had then I doubt these “fixes” would have been done or attained the legendary status that they have. Simple data logging would have shown that there was/was not a fuel supply or pressure problem, and if these mods fixed it. No, they relied on the old “it hasn’t blown so I must’ve fixed it” adage, to which I say “fixed what?” and “Don’t you mean it hasn’t blown yet?”. These mods don’t solve the problem, and there a plenty of people who’ve done them that still blow their motors.

So what next? Well if you’re the typical MR2 enthusiast you find a new miracle cure (Evans Coolant) and invent the problem it solves (micro boiling), of course you provide no data (or you provide data that proves nothing about what you claim to be the problem) and everyone jumps on the bandwagon, cursing the naysayers and hyping up the benefits of this new wonder cure to all that will listen. I must admit to a quiet chuckle when the chief proponent of this particular snake oil blew his motor

What you really need to do is find out why the 3S-GTE is blowing up, and before anyone shouts the D word, I don’t mean the method of failure (that’s pretty obvious), but what causes the detonation to occur in the first place. That is why you need data-logging, along with the tools and skills to set it up and interpret the data. This is where the aftermarket ECU shines, not only can you log he data, but you can change settings and see what effect these changes have.

So now we have identified one of the important features that is required lets have a look at what is on offer from the ECU’s. I’ll stick to comparing the Motec M400/600 (with notes where the M800/880 differs), Haltech E11 & Autronic SM2 but if you have any other ECU’s you’d like to compare please post their features. I apologise if I make any mistakes in the specs for the Autronic/Haltech as I’m not as familiar with them as the Motec, and can only rely on what I can read in their manuals/ find in the software.

Motec - Optional 512kb (M800 = 1mb, M880 =4mb) onboard logging for up to 64 channels at one time (from about 300 possible), logging rate variable for each channel at 1,2,5,10,20,50,100, or 200hz. Remote telemetry option, All ECU channels can be logged at 20Hz using a CAN compatible logger e.g. ADL. Has very good interpreter software for viewing the data, also supports CSV export.

Haltech - 448kb onboard, up to 10 channels from a possible 81, all channels logged at either 1,10 or 200hz, can be RPM activated. Also supports unlimited logging to PC for up to 20 channels (from a possible 60), at 10hz, software only supports viewing in 2 minute chunks very limited graphing abilities, files are CSV.

Autronic - hard to find data about the onboard system, from a search on the net it appears to have only 32kb onboard, 16 channels (out of 44) @50hz enough for about 30secs of 8 channels, no wonder they don’t mention it anywhere. PC logging for 76(?) channels at .2,.5,1,2,5,10,20hz (limited by transmission speed), remote telemetry option. Log viewing software is IMO not very user friendly and has poor interpretation facilities, although it does have XY plots which on the Motec requires the advanced logging option or export to an external graphing solution e.g. Excel.

IMHO Motec is the clear winner in the Datalogging stakes, with the only black mark being no direct PC logging, which IME is not required and this limitation can be overcome if required (I wrote a program to download the log from the ECU every 10 minutes)

That’s enough for a start, any comments?

[KiwiMR2]

MarkCL wrote:

Lanius wrote:

MarkCL wrote:

At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

Could have sworn thats exactly what fivebob said

Not quite - he said if you spend lots of money on a MoTeC then you'll get the results, but if you spend lots on an Autronic/Haltech etc then you won't and you'll have wasted your money etc I tend to disagree, but unfortunately I don't have the depth of technical knowledge to be able to prove beyond doubt that MoTeC, while it is probably the best, is not the ONLY choice you guys & girlz have

I respectfully suggest that if you wish to contribute constructively to this debate, that you don't misquote or misconstrue what I said. I most certainly did not say "if you spend lots of money on a MoTeC" in fact it's just the opposite as we shall find out

If you don't have the technical knowledge and/or are not prepared to download and evaluate the software I suggest that the peanut gallery might like to keep quiet while the rational debate continues

MarkCL wrote:

fivebob wrote:

That’s enough for a start, any comments?

Only that if Rod Millen can manage to build a 1000 horsepower Toyota engine for his Pikes Peak hillclimb record holding car using a Haltech E6K ECU then it can't be all that bad surely?

There you go misconstruing what I said again. Pray tell me why you consider Millens 1000HP, methanol powered, race engine (which by all internet legends is not a 3S-GTE, but let's not start that debate ) to be a 100,000km+ reliable, streetable engine, I must have missed that part in you indepth evaluation

Millen's record is 10:04.06 to get up the hill, not exactly a test in longevity now is it, hmmmm maybe he needed a Motec to break the 10 minute barrier

Now again in language Mark might understand, without feeling the need to comment for the "cheap seats", I ask...

Any comments about the datalogging capabilities of the above mentioned ECU's or anything constructive to add about other ECU's ?

MarkCL wrote:

Cheap shot, and unecessary. At no point have I belittled you.

Cheap shot, maybe. Unnecessary I'm not so sure, you seem to have missed where I stated earlier

Quote:

So now before I start this, I want all who wish to debate (not argue) the merits, or otherwise, of the various systems, to do what I did when evaluating the systems. That is compare all the features, download all the software and manuals, and try to set up the systems for a 3S-GTE from scratch. After doing this you will be in a position to discuss the merits of each system, not just repeat in parrot fashion all the spurious arguments you have seen elsewhere on the internet.

To my mind you weren't prepared to pay the full price of admission to this debate, i.e. downloading the software & manuals, doing a proper evaluation of the products and engaging in rational debate about the subject, hence you were commenting from "the cheap seats". If I am mistaken then I apologise, if not then how about contributing to the debate in a sensible manner.

Quote:

I've had my GT-Four now for four years, had it running 360 horsepower on stock internals and met a lot of professional tuners. Not one of them has been quite so arrogant as you in their opinions though when it came down to engine management. I just thought people would be a little more open minded is all, my mistake. I'll get me coat...

Care to reveal the mods that made you 360HP, if that HP at the wheels then it's certainly a respectable figure from a ST205.

Arrogant, maybe it appears that way, perhaps though it could just be I get sick and tired of people saying that Brand X is as good as if not better than a Motec for less cost, which simply is not true as you will see. BTW the cost difference in the base price of the 3 systems I compared is around $100 in Australia not much more to pay for those extra features is it now?

As to whether I am open minded or not, perhaps that is best answered by the fact that since I purchased and installed the Motec for my MR2, I have also purchased a Power FC for another of my MR2's, Kalmaker software for my Holden and even dare I admit it, recommended to a good friend that they buy an EManage or Link (not for a 3S-GTE) because that was what their budget allowed.

So for the record I will state now that I consider that almost any aftermarket ECU is better than stock, it's just that some are better than others.

Don't go leaving this thread because I've offended you by my brash, boorish manner, stick around, but please try to stay on topic and contribute constructively to the debate, not just snipe with comments that add nothing.

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you'd get far more respect from me if you pointed out why the features of the Motec that I am expounding are not required for a high HP reliable 3S-GTE.

MarkCL wrote:

. . .and met a lot of professional tuners. Not one of them has been quite so arrogant as you in their opinions though when it came down to engine management. I just thought people would be a little more open minded is all, my mistake. I'll get me coat...

Mark

In my experience "professional" tuners nearly always have an agenda when it comes to ECUs as they are often agents for a particular brand or have a bias or familiarity with a particular brand. Fivebob is a consumer who is prepared to back up his choice with exhaustive and reasoned argument, AFAIK he has no agenda.

I used to be a little more open minded myself when it was Autronic SM2 vs. MoTeC M8. When I chose my MoTeC several years ago I carefully evaluated all options, pretty much as Fivebob has described, and narrowed my choice to Autronic and MoTeC; I decided the MoTeC was better and since it was about the same price, it won. Over the last few years though, MoTeC has advanced the game by an order of magnitude whereas Autronic appears to have done very little if anything.

Akane wrote:

The question I have is, I believe there are a few things that the stock ECU have, but the MoTeC don't have, like the speed sensor for power steering, or am I thinking something else that's wrong?

Just want to know, if one purchases a MoTeC ECU, what function of the stock ECU is the buyer have to be prepared to lose out on?

I'd guess an M800 can do everything, but with an M4 or M48, the easiest way to retain all the stock functionality is to piggy back off the standard ECU. This is easier with a gen III as it is MAP based, but with a gen II you just need to run a flying loom for the extra sensors. This way the stock ECU still handles all the boring stuff, idle control, power steering swtich on, AC idle up etc, and the MoTeC controls the engine.

Wolf_Tm250 wrote:

Could you please explain me why I'll have to buy DataLogit ?

Sorry, but I have not understand what I'm not able to tune in my Power FC without it, and I think you could explain me cause you have it.

Datalogit isn't available for the ST205 so you're stuck with the commander of finding someone with the Apexi Software to tune it for you.

Datalogit provides access to all the maps and settings which the commander doesn't. Also provides the ability to log all the parameters and to interface and log additional sensors like wideband O2. Without datalogging you are going to have difficulty tuning the PowerFC properly. It's possible but not easy to do with the limited logging from the commander.

Quote:

And why you're saying you can't tune a reliable high hp 3sgte with it ?

My definition of high HP & reliability (450HP & 100,000kms+) is not easy to achieve. There is no datalogging on the standard Power FC, and only limited logging with the Datalogit. Also with the lack of spare outputs for running things like water injection, thermo fans etc and only basic compensations available in the PowerFC I doubt you get the HP & reliability using this ECU. Should be OK to around 350, maybe even 400HP, but IMO any more than that and reliability becomes a bit of a lottery.

All_Fours wrote:

fivebob - firstly, thank you for the very informative post about the logging abilities of the various ecu's. You keep saying that the motec isn't much more expensive than an Autronic or Haltec. From what I've heard, you can pick these up for around $2,500-3,500, depending on where you're buying from, whereas I thought the motec was around the $5K mark. If a motec can be had for only $100 more than an Autronic or Haltec, then it is definately worth the extra, so where can you buy a motec for the low prices you speak of?

Prices in AUS are $2700 for the Autronic, $2800 for the Haltech and $2800 for the M400 ($3400 for the M800)

In NZ try the local agents, price for the M400 is around $3200 but you'll need to add the basic loom to that, and cable if you want to program it yourself.

The major cost is not the ECU itself, but the installation and tuning. Which if you're at all mechanically inclined, and more importantly approach the tuning logically, you can do it yourself. I did it completely from scratch, ie no base maps, and while I made some mistakes by taking a careful approach I avoided doing damage to my motor. Though I did blow a knock sensor by running 96 when I'd tuned it for 98 octane

[midmotorsteve]

so basically motec kicks *****

lot of cash tho, girlfriend gave me lots of hassle just spending 3/4 what her 2 year old 'warm' hatch cost on 'a mod'. But I'm in agreement the MOTEC is best, the dastek does sound particularly good for toyotas tho, scooby net people hate it as they all say its an a1 toyota mod but it kills their cars. Lot of dastek mapping talent here too.

One question that wasn't adressed in the huge paste was, why does mapping cost so much if the interface etc is so easy, unichips get really well mapped by ex rally team mappers for about £40 an hour and it takes about 3, but motec mappers seem to want £400 for basic setup and then 8 hours mapping at £60 an hour, thats the big motec turn off :(

[Bibbs]

That's the main problem in the UK ..

Plenty of chips for Saxo's .. but the RR time for a good ECU on a Jap car is SO expensive that it almost makes the MoTec insanly expensive ..

I think I'll get a SAFC with my AVRC and leave it at that ..

[veilside_mr2]

yeah the motec is better, of course it is.

but, i can get a reliable 350bhp mr2 spendin £350 mapped with the unichip...or get the same power.....and pay 2k.

It doesnt seem logical to get the motec unless im gonna be takin it drag racing and makin it a racing car.

Plus i couldnt afford the new turbo or intercooler if i got the motec, so it would be complete overkill neways.