Verso VVT1 T3 S-A - problems already!

[Jeff in Pembs]

Picked up this car (06 reg) on Monday. Only 48,000 miles on the clock, excellent condition, with FSH, one owner, and excellent MOT history. Had a test drive and all was fine. Bought the car and then drove it from the dealer to home (approx 190 miles) with no problems. The car stood on my drive until today (Sunday) whilst waiting for my friend to sort out insurance. He did a 30 mile round trip today using auto mode only and apparently found that the car refused to go up a hill - engine revving but car not moving. Also very jerky when changing gear. Sounds horribly like a problem with the auto box. It does have the "Momentum" 6 month warranty and I paid using my credit card.

Any thoughts please? Thanks.

Jeff

[FROSTYBALLS]

Is it the Multi Mode Transmission? Manual gearbox with automated clutch.

[Jeff in Pembs]

Frostyballs: Yes it is, but has been used only in auto mode not the manual mode. The car was last serviced on the 11th March a week before we bought it - is this fault something that would have been picked up then? Just wondering because all previous services were carried by the same garage (but not the one selling the car) but this last service was done by the car dealer themselves.

Does this model have a slightly jerky action in auto mode when changing up through the gears, much more noticeable if you really put your foot down on the accelerator? I was assured by the garage that that is the case.  I have a Honda Jazz CVT automatic as well and that is very smooth with virtually imperceptible changes. Today on closer inspection we can hear a kind of clattering noise from a device which is low down on the right hand side, front of engine. It is about the size of a starter motor and has an electrical connection on the top and a push rod mechanism. I am guessing it is a selector mechanism?

Jeff

[Heidfirst]

If this is an AR10 I thought that this had a CVT rather than MMT?

[Jeff in Pembs]

5 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

If this is an AR10 I thought that this had a CVT rather than MMT?

Sorry, I should have added MMT in the heading as it is definitely this model.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Regardless of the warranty, under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, as you bought the car earlier this month, faults within the first six months of ownership are deemed to be the responsibility of the selling dealer to repair. See 'the first six months' section of:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act?msclkid=05d9673c1471149c9e6e3ba575f08ee5&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=**Consumer Rights Act 2015- Exact&utm_term=consumer rights act 2015&utm_content=consumer rights act 2015

So go back to the selling dealer and discuss the issue. If they aren't interested, seek advice from the CAB or trading standards.

[Jeff in Pembs]

8 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Regardless of the warranty, under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, as you bought the car earlier this month, faults within the first six months of ownership are deemed to be the responsibility of the selling dealer to repair. See 'the first six months' section of:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act?msclkid=05d9673c1471149c9e6e3ba575f08ee5&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=**Consumer Rights Act 2015- Exact&utm_term=consumer rights act 2015&utm_content=consumer rights act 2015

So go back to the selling dealer and discuss the issue. If they aren't interested, seek advice from the CAB or trading standards.

Frostyballs - thank you for your response. Yes, I have been proactive here in that I went to our local CAB yesterday and also spoke to Barclaycard over the phone to clarify the situation. According to the former I can return the car anytime up until the 17th April and have a refund of the money we paid. I do not have to accept a repair apparently especially if I think that is only going to be a sticking plaster approach. I suppose I have been rather naive in that I didn't fully understand what "semi-automatic" means in the context of the Toyota MMT system and having done some research into this I have discovered that the technology behind this is complicated and unreliable. It is basically a robotically operated manual gearbox. I was assured by the dealer that the jerkiness in the gearchange is normal for this type of transmission but I have my doubts now, especially as we are talking about more than just jerkiness - it could be dangerous if the car hesitates when pulling out to join a busy roundabout or motorway.

We were lulled into a false sense of security because the car is in excellent condition otherwise. The engine runs smoothly and quietly and the oil is crystal clear. When I think back now, the journey home was mostly on the flat and 90% of the trip was on the M4 and/or dual carriageway, so very little gearchange activity.

I have booked the car in for a diagnosis on Thursday with our local Toyota main dealer. The 6 months warranty we have is with Momentum and is limited to £1000-worth and I am concerned that if we opt for the repair option we are looking at the possibility of us forking out more money on top of that, as £1000 doesn't go very far on major car repairs these days.

Thanks for the advice thus far. I'll post again after we have the result of the diagnosis on Thursday. In the meantime, if you have any further comments about the MMT system I would appreciate seeing your thoughts.

Jeff

[FROSTYBALLS]

As I said earlier, the selling dealer is responsible for the repair regardless of the warranty. See the following extract:

If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise.

During this time, it's up to the retailer to prove that the fault wasn't there when you bought it - it's not up to you to prove that it was. 

If an attempt at repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund, or price reduction if you wish to keep the product.

The retailer can't make any deductions from your refund in the first six months following an unsuccessful attempt at repair or replacement.

The only exception to this rule is motor vehicles, where the retailer may make a reasonable reduction for the use you've already had of the vehicle after the first 30 days

[alan333]

Return the car and get your money back. We owned a fairly new auris with the mmt box and it’s by far the worst auto box I’ve ever driven. Avoid like the plague. 

[Jeff in Pembs]

Frostyballs - thanks for your latest response. I won't make any decision until after the Toyota dealer's diagnosis report on Thursday. I suspect that the diagnosis will be bad and the repair will cost megabucks. I'm sure both the warranty company and the car dealer (if they are responsible for the repair as you say) will want other quotes. As this is a complicated and rare job there are not going to be many choices of places to get the work done in our remote west Wales neck of the woods. I asked our local friendly mechanic who services my Honda to take a look at it but he declined immediately. In a way this will make the decision easy i.e. return the car for a refund!

[Jeff in Pembs]

2 hours ago, alan333 said:

Return the car and get your money back. We owned a fairly new auris with the mmt box and it’s by far the worst auto box I’ve ever driven. Avoid like the plague. 

Alan333 - thanks for your response. I wish I had known this earlier!

[Catlover]

1 hour ago, Jeff in Pembs said:

Alan333 - thanks for your response. I wish I had known this earlier!

Your very correct there. Few years ago I was looking for a car for the wife, Yaris was on the shopping list and I did test drive n MMT Yaris, but had in my mind all the negatives I had read on this forum. Took it back to the dealer and parked it. Did buy a Yaris, 58 plate diesel, but manual. Really good car, so good I bought myself one about 12 months later.

Shows the benefit of having a forum where the contributors are actual users. 

[Jeff in Pembs]

Frostyballs - re the extract you put in your last post - where did you find that information? I would be grateful if you would post a link or point me in the right direction please.

Thanks.

[Jeff in Pembs]

2 hours ago, Catlover said:

Your very correct there. Few years ago I was looking for a car for the wife, Yaris was on the shopping list and I did test drive n MMT Yaris, but had in my mind all the negatives I had read on this forum. Took it back to the dealer and parked it. Did buy a Yaris, 58 plate diesel, but manual. Really good car, so good I bought myself one about 12 months later.

Shows the benefit of having a forum where the contributors are actual users. 

I have read some users comments on the Toyota MMT system and it seems like it's one of those "Marmite" situations - you either love it or hate it. To those who are critical the general response from those who love it seems to be that yes, it's different and once you get used to it, it's ok. The situation I have is not just a jerky ride, it's the positively heart-stopping inconsistent hesitation plus the failure of the car to go up steep hills!

[Catlover]

Like a lot of things Jeff, if it works well then its fine, but with MMT boxes I heard so many problems it just put me off. A friend is looking for a car, a small auto, and a Yaris would be a good size, but the money to spend take sit to 2010ish and Yaris autos then were MMT (asked the question earlier and Frostyballs has confirmed that), so I cannot and would not recomend a Yaris. Homda Jaz of similar year also has its own version of MMT and that has the same reputation, maybe perhaps not so bad.

Dont understand why it doesnt get up hills, I understand its a manual box with computer controlled linkages. I presume there is then a standard clutch in the package, which could be worn, but as no one else has mentioned that ....maybe not.

Personally, I would return it and put your money on something else.

THe only auto boxes I have experience of are the CVT box in the Toyota Auris and Prius cars..... and they are bullet proof and so good.

[Jeff in Pembs]

Catlover - yes, there was a version of the Jazz which was universally disliked. I think it was the one that had the paddle system. We have the "real" CVT system on my wife's 2014 Jazz and that is really smooth. It also has the paddles but they are never used. She had an 02 automatic Jazz before that and it did over 100K miles with no problems whatsoever. I have an older manual Jazz (07) but drive both cars most days.

I have a tricky situation here with this Verso as it is not for me but for a friend. They are six in the family (4 kids: 12 and under) so he needs a 6/7 seater automatic car. He has very little money. He does not want a diesel for environmental reasons, hence we are extremely limited in what we can find, not helped by living in rural west Wales! Hence buying the Verso from a dealer 190 miles away. It's a shame because the car is immaculate (as described in my original post) but the MMT problem is one huge negative. Even if we did go down the repair route I would always be nervous for him in case the issue returned at a later date when there would be no warranty at all.

[Jeff in Pembs]

1 hour ago, Jeff in Pembs said:

Frostyballs - re the extract you put in your last post - where did you find that information? I would be grateful if you would post a link or point me in the right direction please.

Thanks.

Sorry - just realised the extract is from the "Which" reference that you sent earlier.

Jeff

[alan333]

16 hours ago, Jeff in Pembs said:

I have read some users comments on the Toyota MMT system and it seems like it's one of those "Marmite" situations - you either love it or hate it. To those who are critical the general response from those who love it seems to be that yes, it's different and once you get used to it, it's ok. The situation I have is not just a jerky ride, it's the positively heart-stopping inconsistent hesitation plus the failure of the car to go up steep hills!

I'll elaborate on my earlier carte blanche "avoid like the plague" statement.

We previously owned a Citroen C4 1.6 hdi with their version of the MMT box, Citroen call it an EGS (electronic gear shift).  It ran well, and changed gears reasonably appropriately, although it could get caught out sometimes, often when it wasn't sure whether to choose 1st or 2nd at slow speeds.  You got to learn it’s idiosyncrasies and used the paddle shifters accordingly (and occasionally).  However the car was getting a bit baggy so we decided to change.  We chose a 3 years old, low mileage 1.6 valvematic Auris MMT, expecting it to be similar.

The general gear change pattern is similar, but where the Toyota fails drastically is by its lack of torque.  The punchy diesel C4 had enough torque to 'pull through' when it changed up gears a little early, but the Auris was completely flat on its feet, and would actually change back down after a short while, then up again, then back down, repeatedly.  Sure you can over-rule it with the paddles but I reckon if I wanted to do that then I'd buy a manual in the first place.  It's especially woeful on any hills, and worse again in town at slow speeds.  It'll actually block change from 2nd to 4th on a hill which needs you to hold 2nd.  Or it'll go from 3rd to 5th, then pause while it decides it's actually 4th you need, and then casually takes its time choosing 4th, by which time the car has slowed enough for it to actually need 3rd.  It also doesn't have a hill hold, or enough creep to hold against the slightest incline - you need to use the handbrake.

Seriously, my advice is to hand it back as soon as you can - it'll save you selling it at a loss in a few months when you realise just how bad it is.

On reading that back it reads like we drive like boy racers and expected such performance from the car.  It's quite the opposite tho, we're both happy to dawdle along with the traffic. 

[Jeff in Pembs]

Alan - thanks for your information - very interesting indeed. The car is going into our local Toyota main dealership tomorrow for a diagnosis as the cost of this (or at least part of it) will be covered by the warranty. Maybe I should not do this and simply reject the car now, as the diagnosis may simply say that the car is ok mechanically?

Edited to add: I should have added that this would probably explain why I found the drive back home was generally ok as it was mostly dual carriageway/motorway with only gentle hills and 65 mph cruising?

Edited March 27, 2019 by Jeff in Pembs
additonal comments

[Jeff in Pembs]

One further thought. If it is just hills that are the problem when driving on automatic, what happens if you switch to manually operating the gearstick (no paddles in the Verso)? If I drop from 4th to 3rd to go up a steepish hill will the car respond and hold in 3rd until I decide that maybe I need to drop into 2nd because of the steepness and the engine is obviously struggling (as would be the case with a normal manual gearbox), or will the car override me and do what it thinks best?

 

 

[alan333]

I wouldn't bother with the diagnosis and reject the car now.

It'll stay in whatever gear you select when using manual mode.  I'd assume it'll over-rule you at some excessive point, like for example trying to pull off in 4th or something (but I never tried it).

[Jeff in Pembs]

2 hours ago, alan333 said:

I wouldn't bother with the diagnosis and reject the car now.

It'll stay in whatever gear you select when using manual mode.  I'd assume it'll over-rule you at some excessive point, like for example trying to pull off in 4th or something (but I never tried it).

Thanks for your further thoughts. Early tomorrow morning the plan is to take the car for a test run with the friend that the car was bought for, together with another person (who has not seen the car before) to act as an independent "judge". The diagnosis appointment is not until 1.30pm so that gives me plenty of time to talk to the car dealer and see what his reaction is. We discussed this very point (about the need for a diagnosis) tonight and what it would achieve in reality. If we are going to reject the car anyway it does seem rather pointless and furthermore a waste of the £100 it is going to cost!

[Catlover]

Sounds like this car could become a money pit.

add to that, when the time comes to sell you being out the in Pembrokeshire, you might find lack of potential buyers because a) people are aware of problems with MMT boxes, b) the distance they would have to travel.

I hope your test runs this morning help you make your minds up.

[Jeff in Pembs]

3 hours ago, Catlover said:

Sounds like this car could become a money pit.

add to that, when the time comes to sell you being out the in Pembrokeshire, you might find lack of potential buyers because a) people are aware of problems with MMT boxes, b) the distance they would have to travel.

I hope your test runs this morning help you make your minds up.

I agree. The reason we had to travel about 180 miles to get the car in the first place is that there were literally no 7 seater, petrol, automatics to be had in this neck of the woods as there is is little demand for them here. There are some diesel options in the larger urban areas like Swansea or Cardiff but even these are 60 - 100 miles away! I was not aware of the issues with the MMT system, and I niavely assumed that it was like my Honda Jazz which has the paddle option. Wrong!

Where we road tested the car was a very flat area - had we done this where we live we would not have bought it for sure. I'll post later on today and report back on our progress.

[Jeff in Pembs]

The car had two test runs today - the first with a friend and the second with a guy from the service department of our local Toyota dealer. The latter has confirmed that there is an issue with the clutch and/or selector unit (I think that what it's called). The problem only manifests itself under very specific conditions which Alan333 has already mentioned above. Unfortunately the mechanic cannot be more specific about the cause without dismantling the relevant bits of the engine. The warranty is virtually worthless because of the capped limit of £1000 for labour and parts combined and a cap of £40 per hour for labour. The selector mechanism alone is about £1200. If it turns out to be the clutch linings then these are of course regarded as "fair wear and tear" items so are not covered anyway and I would have to pay for the labour for dismantling and reassembling the clutch if it turned out not to be the clutch causing the problem.

To be fair the dealer has now offered (verbally) to have the car picked up by the breakdown recovery people and returned to him for repair (I don't want to have to drive 180 miles then back again and a further 180 miles each way to pick it up again). I have put all this in an email tonight and said that my preferred option is to return the car for a refund.