Verso VVT1 T3 S-A - problems already!

[Jeff in Pembs]

3 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

The 'article' was written in August 2015, whereas the act came in October 2015, and is encouraging dealers to buy this firm's pre-delivery inspection pads. So not impartial.

Sorry, I did reply to this earlier but it seems to have disappeared into the ether as they say! Not impartial - yes but untrue though?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Well, as a longstanding Which? member, I am inclined to go by the Which? information, which is impartial, not trying to sell something (which lawgistics are), and was compiled when the Act came into force, rather than an article written two months before the Act became law.

At the end of the day, the choice has to be yours.

[Jeff in Pembs]

Catlover - thanks for the link. The critical bit is: - if your used car has a significant fault that was present when you bought it (as opposed to developing afterwards) you can reject the car within the first 30 days and get a full refund. I believe the onus is on us to prove that the fault was there when we bought the car but there seems to be some confusion about this on this forum and on another which I've been looking at. I'll be calling the Consumer Standards helpline again in the morning for a definitive answer.

Unfortunately we did not discover the fault when we did the test drive but only later when the car had thoroughly warmed up and encountered stop/start traffic. This was after a total of about 6 hours driving. The journey home from the dealer (about 4.5 hours) was 90% on motorway/dual carriageway with no hold-ups and the last 20 miles was on single carriageway in the evening in quiet west Wales so no problem. It was then not driven for nearly a week. Then after a 14 or so mile drive the problem occurred whilst queuing for a traffic light in town (autobox goes into neutral and car can't move and not possible to select D). The car has also a tendency to hesitate when pulling out from a side road or onto a roundabout which is dangerous rather than merely inconvenient.

Regarding Toyota. I've had another nagging worry and that is, will they be considered to be impartial technical experts if we end up in a Small Claims Court? In my opinion the only people who should really understand their semi-automatic gearbox must surely be them or should I be looking for a truly independent organisation like DEKRA or the IAEA?

[Jeff in Pembs]

11 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Well, as a longstanding Which? member, I am inclined to go by the Which? information, which is impartial, not trying to sell something (which lawgistics are), and was compiled when the Act came into force, rather than an article written two months before the Act became law.

At the end of the day, the choice has to be yours.

OK, thanks.

[Catlover]

20 minutes ago, Jeff in Pembs said:

Catlover - thanks for the link. The critical bit is: - if your used car has a significant fault that was present when you bought it (as opposed to developing afterwards) you can reject the car within the first 30 days and get a full refund. I believe the onus is on us to prove that the fault was there when we bought the car but there seems to be some confusion about this on this forum and on another which I've been looking at. I'll be calling the Consumer Standards helpline again in the morning for a definitive answer.

Unfortunately we did not discover the fault when we did the test drive but only later when the car had thoroughly warmed up and encountered stop/start traffic. This was after a total of about 6 hours driving. The journey home from the dealer (about 4.5 hours) was 90% on motorway/dual carriageway with no hold-ups and the last 20 miles was on single carriageway in the evening in quiet west Wales so no problem. It was then not driven for nearly a week. Then after a 14 or so mile drive the problem occurred whilst queuing for a traffic light in town (autobox goes into neutral and car can't move and not possible to select D). The car has also a tendency to hesitate when pulling out from a side road or onto a roundabout which is dangerous rather than merely inconvenient.

Regarding Toyota. I've had another nagging worry and that is, will they be considered to be impartial technical experts if we end up in a Small Claims Court? In my opinion the only people who should really understand their semi-automatic gearbox must surely be them or should I be looking for a truly independent organisation like DEKRA or the IAEA?

I understand that most solicitors will give you half hour interview in which they/you can decide whether to persue deeper. I would check this out, and go for it if deemed advantageous. You use the term "I believe", it doesnt matter what you believe or not believe.... what matters is the law and arguably the only one that will know the intricies of law is one who is qualified in it.

The start of your 2nd para may be one such case. Its as if you are rejecting the 30 day rule because you had a short test drive, took the car and it was "only later when the car had throughly warmed up and encountered stop/start traffic". For all you know this may well be admissible for a successful claim, you dont know that, but a solicitor would. In 30 minutes free with a solicitor you can get through the detail like you shown in the 2nd paragraph.

Is it worth a 30 minute interview with a knowledgable person? or keep trying forums which are full of amateurs (no disrespect to anyone). If you keep going on the forums, no doubt you will find someone who agrees with your thinking and bingo!..... they are right, I just give up and accept this lemon of a car.

[Jeff in Pembs]

Catlover - I suppose I am a pessimist by nature whereas my wife is the eternal optimist thankfully and keeps me fighting on!

I used the expression "I believe" because there are completely contradictory statements out there. One phone phone call to the Consumer Standards helpline in the morning will sort it.

I have tried one of those free solicitors (the first call was free anyway) and basically she advised that I contact the IAEA (Institute of Automotive Engineer Assessors). I did and spoke to a friendly guy there who is based about 10 miles from the dealer. He thinks we have a strong case. I haven't discussed fees with him yet. There is also an organisation called DEKRA who offer the same kind of service but I haven't had a chance to contact them yet. Actually on the two forums I have found the opposite to be the case - everyone tells me to go for it and not be fobbed off rather than just give up and accept a lemon! However it's easy to be a "keyboard warrior" isn't it?

The dilemma is that we are pouring more money into pursuing this case but I have just found out that we can include these additional expenses in our claim to the Small Claims Court, so not quite as bad as I first thought.

Thanks for your input - much appreciated.

Jeff

[Master of disaster]

Hello Jeff.

I'm jumping up and down!! There is one person who will solve this for you : the previous owner of the car who probably traded this lemon in to the dealer. 

You need to do some detective work.If you still have the "Log Book" The red front page of it  should have the previous owners name and address at the bottom of it, if hasn't changed since I bought my Previa in 2016

Try Face Book search first, then 192.com for UK people adress/ telephone search, then if still no joy Contact the DVLA.  The .gov check a cars MOT history which has the MOT station reference numbers which are lkely to be in that area ish could help.I once bought a car from a Dealer aquaintence who got it for me from an auction with no service history.Using the original number plates from new, (always a good sign of no front of rear end damage) I contacted the fleet company (pre internet), and they were happy to send me all the service history.

Check the first 2 letters of the Registration for the first place it was registered.That can give you an Idea of its movements too.

When I came to Wales my wife's best friend since infant school, 40 odd years, had a cousin who owned a local garage, and when a friend in England wanted a van I said I would get one down here as prices are slightly lower and bring it up.So I got Sian to arrange it  picked it up in the dark, new MOT.didn't bother to look too closely because of their connection, and set off, started off and the temperature was up after a few miles so went home.Next day, I inspected it and found it was a Death trap, I couldnt believe my eyes underneath was virtually gone and welding and spraying when I was younger I had seen a few sights.When I took it back to him he refused to take it back and told me I had an attitude problem! the Obvious solution to that, would have seen me behind bars, so I drove it to the MOT place and they gave me the money back plus costs.

So I sincerely hope your continuing Saga ends soon.I only came on here to see if someone has a readable Wiring Diagram for a 2003 Estima!! Best of luck.

 

[Jeff in Pembs]

MofD - I have already tried this but thanks for the suggestion. I only have the tear-off section of the V5 document. The new V5 will not have the previous owners details any more thanks to the new Data Protection laws. I doubt if the DVLA will divulge anything to me for the same reason. I tried the garage in London where the car was serviced (details are in the service book) and MOT'd but apparently they had a computer crash sometime last year and customer records were lost.

Anyway things have taken a new twist today which has given us a welcome morale boost but I don't want to reveal any further details at this point in time. I should be able to report back middle or end of next week.

[Master of disaster]

Fingers crossed then.The Laws protecting Consumers of all products, services and anything else in this country are so poor, and after the last three years, I think people will be realising exactly why that is.It's just a Diabolical Disgrace.

Really hope it works out for you.Goodnight

 

[Heidfirst]

10 hours ago, Master of disaster said:

Fingers crossed then.The Laws protecting Consumers of all products, services and anything else in this country are so poor, and after the last three years,

they are higher than in many countries . Imo it's not the laws so much as the enforcement i.e. cost of taking legal action.

[Jeff in Pembs]

Do any of you know if there was ever a recall of Verso's with the semi-automatic MMT please? I can't find any anything on the web but it may have happened too far back. I have found other Toyota recalls about airbags but nothing connected to the MMT.

[Heidfirst]

Have you come across this in your search? https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=97184

Apparently there may have been a Customer Service Campaign (not a recall).

[FROSTYBALLS]

Use Toyota's recall checker, which should also cover customer service campaigns - https://www.toyota.co.uk/owners/vehicle-information/recall-checker-info#/iframe/https%3A%2F%2Fforms.toyota.co.uk%2Frecall-checker

[Jeff in Pembs]

3 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

Have you come across this in your search? https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=97184

Apparently there may have been a Customer Service Campaign (not a recall).

Yes I have, thanks. Wish I had seen this before buying the car! Easy with hindsight. Will definitely send in a report to DVSA as this fault is not just inconvenient, it is downright dangerous.

[Jeff in Pembs]

3 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Use Toyota's recall checker, which should also cover customer service campaigns - https://www.toyota.co.uk/owners/vehicle-information/recall-checker-info#/iframe/https%3A%2F%2Fforms.toyota.co.uk%2Frecall-checker

Just tried it - got the following reply:

We are pleased to confirm that your Toyota is not affected by any voluntary customer service campaigns or outstanding safety recalls and no further action is required!

[Jeff in Pembs]

Update: the car has been checked over by the Toyota garage and an independent automotive engineer. The computer check found an error code which indicates a problem with the clutch actuator and associated kit. Cost to repair: £2400. The engineer says that it is highly improbable that the fault developed within just 6 hours of driving and the balance of probabilities is that the fault was present when we bought the car. The dealer has agreed to refund our money subject to receiving a copy of the engineer's written report, which should be middle of next week. I'll update then. We will still be heavily out of pocket due to all the expenses we have run up but I will just have to put it down to a learning experience, albeit a somewhat harsh one.

[Mike169]

Hi.

I have been on this forum and I am chatting to another person about a car he is considering buying. Over the years the MMT gearbox keeps coming up as a bad gearbox and an expensive one to repair. The standard silky smooth automatic gearbox in my opinion gets the best reports, (I have one) and the manual is a fairly good gearbox but some models seem to jump out of 5th gear and clutches are expensive to replace, I hope this helps.

Mike.

[Jeff in Pembs]

Thanks Mike169. I have owned 5 "proper" automatics over the years (Nissan Micra, Nissan Sunny, Renault Megane, Honda Jazz [2 off] ) and have never had any trouble with the auto gearboxes. In the light of the current experience I will never consider a semiautomatic of any description again! Our problem is finding a 7 seater, auto petrol version, - these are pretty rare.