Engine management computer

[robint]

Im writing on behalf of my neighbour who recently bought a Rav 4  ca 6 years old  w 80k on the clock otherwise in good nick.  Problem was that it was very sluggish and poor performance and juddering engine above 60mph.  She took it to the garage under warantee and to be fair that garage has been faithful to the cover.  It has been a nightmare to fix. 
First diagnosed with faulty injector, replaced - no better, even got the tech experts down from Toyota HQ and they couldnt find out what was wrong.  Went to a diesel injector specialist who said all the injectors were faulty.  Costs a grand to replace, still no good.  The EMS needs to be reprogrammed every time you do something or it gives an error light.  Eventually after 6 weeks and new injectors it was narrowed down to a complete reboot and reprogram of the EMS (which takes 4 hours and needs a very special Toyota HQ device to do this).  It turns out that the car had been run with poor injectors for a long time and the EMS had "learnt" the characteristics and reprogrammed itself accodingly to run on a bad engine.  The new injector set made the car run properly for the first time but the EMS couldnt recognise these new habits and stayed with the old history.  Sorry if this is techically garbled but we are not savvy here only living with a very poorly perforimg RAV for 6 weeks.

This root and branch reprogramming taking 4 hours seems absurd and hasnt yet been completed so the warning light doesnt come on (fail mot)

Has anyone else heard of this disastrous set of affairs?  - and the fact the HQ boffins didnt spot this straight away.  This car in otherwise vgc cost £8  and nealy £5k has been spent on warranty labour and spares

We are going to make a claim against Toyota for the time and stress caused by their negligence of their experts

I am a great support of Toyota (I have an Aygo - little treasure)  but this has dented my faith

 

Comment advice pls

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

To be honest, the contract is with the garage who sold the car, not the manufacturer. 

Has the warranty covered all of the repair costs?

[Heidfirst]

6 yeasr old so outside the time limit in England for a claim against the manufacturer. As Frosty says your claim should be against the selling dealer.

What's the service history like (possibility of goodwill)?

[robint]

Misread my post - this is not a dispute with the seller, they have honoured their part 100%.  Problem lies with Toyota and their negligence in sorting out their own - clearly complex EMS. The car was xfered to a main Dealer and their own specialist couldnt sort it, so they call in HQ That is the essence of my posting

[robint]

1 minute ago, Heidfirst said:

6 yeasr old so outside the time limit in England for a claim against the manufacturer. As Frosty says your claim should be against the selling dealer.

What's the service history like (possibility of goodwill)?

Wrong again - read before posting from your armchair.  Toyota HQ sent their own boffins down to the local main dealer and even then couldnt sort it and walked away.  Lets see how well that sits with Toyota Board and their reputation.  I am hoping someone else might know of something similar and know about these adaptive EMS.  Its a diesel so we know from VW what dirty tricks can be programmed

[FROSTYBALLS]

I certainly haven't mis-read the post.

The contract is between the seller and the customer, and any legal action will be between these.

You didn't answer whether the warranty covered all repair costs - so has it??

4 minutes ago, robint said:

Wrong again - read before posting from your armchair.

If you want responses from forum members, modify your attitude and don't be patronising. Further posts in a similar vein may result in warnings or temporary suspension from the site.

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, robint said:

Wrong again - read before posting from your armchair.  Toyota HQ sent their own boffins down to the local main dealer and even then couldnt sort it and walked away.  Lets see how well that sits with Toyota Board and their reputation.  I am hoping someone else might know of something similar and know about these adaptive EMS.  Its a diesel so we know from VW what dirty tricks can be programmed

No, I am right. As it happens I am not in an armchair but where do you post from, mid-air?

Afaik pretty much all modern common-rail injection systems adapt for wear on injectors. Replace the injector(s) & you need to recalibrate the system for the new injector(s) which it doesn't seem like your injection specialist did.

You still haven't said what the service history is like.

[robint]

I am a simple user and relied on the service of experts, I can only report on what I experienced.  It seems the experts let me down, after all injectors?  its a known quantitiy. And the EMS again a somewhat unknown quantitiy to mere mortals but it all combined to defeat the Toyota HQ specialists with their own diagnostics - thats whats ****** me off. They walked away - i dont forgive that

(Mod edit - swearing removed) does it take 4 hours to reboot the EMS?

Toyota charges £170/hr

[FROSTYBALLS]

You still haven't said whether the warranty covered all the repair costs. If it did, it is irrelevant that the labour costs were supposedly £170 per hour.

[Heidfirst]

& service history - so far I am reading into that as not maintained to Toyota standards, resold by a non-Toyota garage, looked at & work done by a 3rd party injection specialist before finally ending up at a Toyota dealer.

As it was recently bought it would still be under Consumer Rights Act 2015 https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 hours ago, robint said:

Im writing on behalf of my neighbour who recently bought a Rav 4  ca 6 years old  w 80k on the clock otherwise in good nick.

 

1 hour ago, robint said:

i am a simple user and relied on the service of experts, I can only report on what I experienced.  It seems the experts let me down, after all injectors? 

As it was your neighbour who bought the car, surely, if anyone has suffered, it is your neighbour and not you.

[robint]

All costs so far have been born by the re-seller and not disputed as I said in my posting above.  I dont know about the service history but will ask.  Yes I am frustrated with the response on this forum because all posts have skirted around the real issue which is why this kind of problem with the EMS/injectors can occur and how is it that Toyota specialists sent down to the Local main dealer didnt flag up this issue.  The local injector specialist is the real deal not some mickey mouse back street jobber.  This has been going on for 6 weeks with extreme frustration by the reseller / local Toyota agent/my neighbour. It was getting to the stage where my neighbour wanted her money back as the car performance was very poor almost undriveable.

Can we please have a post from someone who might have experienced a similar EMS issue - and not be distracted by the warranty issue.  Our painful experience may well help another hapless user who has poor performance from a Toyota EMS.  Are these injectors so tempremental?  Why does it take 4 hours to reboot an EMS to factory default

 

BTW my neighbour is not connected  that why I am posting so we can all understand how this disastrous situation can occur

[robint]

I should have gone straight to Google

The correction code printed on each injector must be programmed into the engine DCU every time one or more injectors are replaced.

When to Program

This operation must be carried out if:

• One or more injectors have been replaced.
• The DCU has been replaced (a new DCU must always be reprogrammed with the codes for all the injectors).

Note: Every injector has its own individual correction code. The code has 30 characters printed on top of the injector. If the correction code programmed in the engine DCU is incorrect for the injector, the engine may stall and run very badly at idle. The engine may also break down and have a reduced service life.

A simple response to a layman that explains why this can happen

[IanML]

Doesn't say why 4 hours to reboot!

Even a Windows 10 update is faster than that.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Your original post asked for comment/advice - so the subsequent comments on the intention to claim from Toyota, etc were pertinent to the topic. Your posts were not clear on whether your neighbour had borne some of the costs mentioned, whether the car had a full service history, etc, hence clarification being sought.

12 hours ago, robint said:

I am a simple user and relied on the service of experts, I can only report on what I experienced.  It seems the experts let me down

Also posting phrases as quoted above is misleading to members, as it was your neighbour who owns the car and was supposedly let down, not you! 

Presumably now you have found an explanation for coding the injectors, that is an end to the topic.