DPF warning

[cumbrialass]

Today a DPF warning message came up on my 64 reg RAV 4.  I checked the handbook and it said to drive consistently for 20 30 minutes at 40 mph. I drove for 40 minutes and kept the speed at 40 / 50 when I could and a few blasts at 60. The lights still on.

The nearest Toyota garage is 50 miles away.. i phoned just befor closing and was told to drive the car for " about 50 minutes at 50mph and don't go above 4th gear.

I'm not sure this is right for the engine.

I've only done 26000 miles and it had a full service at the end of August, so surely the filter was checked then? It's still under warranty.

Is this a common fault ? 

I'm phoning the Toyota garage again tomorrow... to book a time for them to check . The light may go off if I can keep the speed up.. but I'm doubtful. 

Will it damage the engine if I keep to 4th gear but drive at 50 mph?... for about 50 miles?

[Heidfirst]

The system needs to get really hot for the DPF to regenerate so a longish period of operation at high (2,5000 >) rpm is necessary. Tbh I didn't know that the RAV4 had a specific check DPF warning light.

It's usually not so much a fault as a consequence of using the vehicle in a way that a diesel is not really suitable for e.g. lots of short journeys where the engine/system never really achieves the necessary temp. or is unable to complete regens. due to being shut down early. It's common to all DPF-equipped diesels not just Toyotas.

https://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-dpf-understanding-your-diesel-particulate-filter

[cumbrialass]

Thanks for the  link.. we've not driven far in the last few weeks..averaging 30 or less  Note to self,  once this is sorted,  to give it a good run more frequently. 

Nb it's not a warning light.. it was a message on the display

"DPF full, Refer to Owners manual"

Saying that, I 've had the car since Sept 2014 and this is the first time this had happened

[Mike169]

Hi Scott.

So if a DPF collects nasty chemicals and of course acts as a filter, when the engine regen's does that not mean it just blows all the bad stuff out the back just re-polluting the atmosphere onto the car behind you?

Hope this makes sense.

Regards, Mike.

[Catlover]

As Scott has said, it’s a problem with diesels when they don’t do much mileage, and 5.5k miles per year is low mileage for a diesel. IF the cat is full it could be expensive, though I think there are companies that claim they can clean them. How successful I don’t know. 

I have had diesels for over 24 years, mainly for good mpg, but got to a time I was only doing 6k miles. Didn’t like the thought of low mpg of a petrol only car so turned to Toyota hybrids. Love them, wife has an Auris hybrid (first hybrid I got for myself), I moved on to Prius,  with a Gen4, which is brilliant to drive,and now the warmer weather here I regularly get mid 70mpg and sometime into low 80’s. I don’t do lot of M-way miles, mostly A and B roads, and got to know how to use the roads to good advantage. Cumbria may well be good fro a hybrid, Keith.

[Heidfirst]

2 hours ago, Mike169 said:

Hi Scott.

So if a DPF collects nasty chemicals and of course acts as a filter, when the engine regen's does that not mean it just blows all the bad stuff out the back just re-polluting the atmosphere onto the car behind you?

Hi Mike,

DPFs collect both soot & ash. When they regen. they run very hot & burn (using diesel fuel) the accumulated soot off but leave behind a small amount of ash that gradually accumulates until it fills up the unit. This is why diesels with DPFs require "low ash" oil (C1/C2/C3 grades) or the DPF fill up quicker.

[cumbrialass]

Off to Morecambe ( Toyota) so hopefully the 50 mile journey at a good speed will help. If not I hope they can sort it. 

When we got the Rav in 2014 the 4x4 were only in diesel..so Hobson's choice.  We still need a 4x4..( country tracks , safer in bad weather etc) We'll be doing a lot more milage over the next 6 months...but maybe we need to rethink very carefully what our next car will be.

 

[Mike169]

12 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

Hi Mike,

DPFs collect both soot & ash. When they regen. they run very hot & burn (using diesel fuel) the accumulated soot off but leave behind a small amount of ash that gradually accumulates until it fills up the unit. This is why diesels with DPFs require "low ash" oil (C1/C2/C3 grades) or the DPF fill up quicker.

Hi Keith.

Even though I have many, many years of mechanical experience I had to quit 12 years ago on medical grounds and Cat's on cars hadn't been out long on the scale they is now, hence my inexperience with Cat's, DPF's etc etc. so I thank you for your explanation. When I bought my 2012 Rav the government were pushing us into diesels hence why I bought one, now they are trying hard to get us all out of them. My personal Rav, a 150 D-Cat has yet to reach 17K so a petrol would suits me better but it's a perfect car so am reluctant to part with it as the money I would get for it I feel it's better to keep it, incidentally I have no idea if it has ever re-gen but it runs perfectly and does at least one good run every week, my wife is out in it to day, a 60 miles round fast trip.

Thanks again, Mike.

[Mike169]

10 hours ago, cumbrialass said:

Today a DPF warning message came up on my 64 reg RAV 4.  I checked the handbook and it said to drive consistently for 20 30 minutes at 40 mph. I drove for 40 minutes and kept the speed at 40 / 50 when I could and a few blasts at 60. The lights still on.

The nearest Toyota garage is 50 miles away.. i phoned just befor closing and was told to drive the car for " about 50 minutes at 50mph and don't go above 4th gear.

I'm not sure this is right for the engine.

I've only done 26000 miles and it had a full service at the end of August, so surely the filter was checked then? It's still under warranty.

Is this a common fault ? 

I'm phoning the Toyota garage again tomorrow... to book a time for them to check . The light may go off if I can keep the speed up.. but I'm doubtful. 

Will it damage the engine if I keep to 4th gear but drive at 50 mph?... for about 50 miles?

Hi Kath.

I have read a post on here where a car was saying it's needs a re-gen. Literally the Toyota technician from a main dealer took it for a test drive holding the car in 3th or 4th gear at between 50-60mph until the car re-gen itself keeping the rev's up so not it's highly doubtful you will do any damage, it's called 'An Italian Tune Up' and he did something like 50 miles, a long journey in 3rd or 4th gear until the car re-gen's, oh and yes it is quite a common fault, consider it like getting you chimney swept at home years ago but you need to let the car do the work.

Mike.

[152bobby]

Yep, I had this a few years ago and the Toyota technician took it for a forced regen on the motorway using the method mentioned above.

Luckily for me it worked (on the return journey) or I would have been looking at a very expensive repair.  Instead, I only got charged one hours labour.

A diesel car with a dpf is a strict no no if you don't put in the mileage  and or do lots of short journeys.

I personally hate seeing the regen in progress and seeing the plume of smoke at the rear of the car and annoying the drivers behind me, but that's how it works.

I still have my Rav, it's a great car , however, it's my final diesel no matter what make it is.

[Mike169]

10 minutes ago, BobbyMcLeish said:

Yep, I had this a few years ago and the Toyota technician took it for a forced regen on the motorway using the method mentioned above.

Luckily for me it worked (on the return journey) or I would have been looking at a very expensive repair.  Instead, I only got charged one hours labour.

A diesel car with a dpf is a strict no no if you don't put in the mileage  and or do lots of short journeys.

I personally hate seeing the regen in progress and seeing the plume of smoke at the rear of the car and annoying the drivers behind me, but that's how it works.

I still have my Rav, it's a great car , however, it's my final diesel no matter what make it is.

Hi Bobby.

I 100% agree with your comment especially the last few words.

Regards, Mike.

[dreamingandscheming]

Ditto last post...Paul

[cumbrialass]

When I got there the "dpf full" message was there. They suggested a motorway drive to force regeneration but they said they couldn't do it straight away..not for at least 3 hours and then it would take 1 and a half hours. The also said even if the regen didn't work I'd still be charged £90.. ( would have used a lot of fuel too..at my expense) 

They suggested a manual clean.. but they didn't do it. ..I'd have to find someone. 

I then spoke to the manager who suggested another try driving the 50 miles home. ..keeping the speed consistent . 40 + mph but keeping the revs to 2000.. don't force the engine.  I pointed out that this was the direct opposite of what I was told that morning.  

But..I drove home ,  normal use of gears and was able to maintain an average of 49 mph. Car drove like a dream. When I got home and checked, the 'dpf full '  message had gone. 

Fingers crossed when I start the engine tomorrow the message has still gone.

If not... There's a reputable garage in my home town who say they can do manual filter clean "No problem"

Subject to it all being ok.. note to self to do a few longer runs.. shouldn't be a problem at this time of the year .

Wish someone had warned about the possibility of this happening.

[FROSTYBALLS]

37 minutes ago, cumbrialass said:

Wish someone had warned about the possibility of this happening.

Given the modern diesel engine's emission controls, similar issues can occur with the DPF regardless of vehicle manufacturer.

[Heidfirst]

6 hours ago, cumbrialass said:

Wish someone had warned about the possibility of this happening.

Millions of people have bought/been sold diesels when they don't have the appropriate driving pattern to keep them functioning properly. The information is all out there but, yes, ideally, they should have had things explained to them about what could happen & how to avoid it.

 https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/diesel-particulate-filters-everything-you-need-to-know/n1182 

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2017-10/everything-you-need-to-know-about-dpfs/

 For the future - a 2wd on appropriate tyres (M+S) will actually grip better in mud/snow etc. than a 4wd on typical road tyres. The new RAV4, of course, is hybrid (petrol) only even for 4x4.

N.B. If your garage remove the DPF to clean it make sure that you get paperwork or else you may have issues getting it through the MOT next time.

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

Millions of people have bought/been sold diesels when they don't have the appropriate driving pattern to keep them functioning properly. The information is all out there but, yes, ideally, they should have had things explained to them about what could happen & how to avoid it.

 https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/diesel-particulate-filters-everything-you-need-to-know/n1182 

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2017-10/everything-you-need-to-know-about-dpfs/

 For the future - a 2wd on appropriate tyres (M+S) will actually grip better in mud/snow etc. than a 4wd on typical road tyres. The new RAV4, of course, is hybrid (petrol) only even for 4x4.

N.B. If your garage remove the DPF to clean it make sure that you get paperwork or else you may have issues getting it through the MOT next time.

There's also a fair amount of misinformation out there ... 

Useful references to the trials and tribulations of having a DPF equipped diesel ... 🙂

Kath's RAV is 4wd and came equipped with M&S tyres from new - Toyota fit them as OEM kit - and will do better in off-road conditions than any 2wd car. Unfortunately, Toyota fit summer compound tyres and the M&S marking merely refers to a chunkier tread pattern - it has no formal definition. On ice (or compacted snow) drivers are better off on tyres certified for cold weather use with the 3PMS (3 peaks mountain and snowflake) symbol. A car equipped with cold weather tyres will certainly stop much better in wintry conditions than one on summer tyres with or without the M&S symbol. As to whether a 2wd car on cold weather tyres will provide more of less traction than a 4wd car on summer tyres will depend on the exact conditions of the test - the 4wd, having four driven wheels, inherently has twice the chance of finding traction than a 2wd vehicle.

I run cold weather tyres certified with the 3PMS symbol through the winter - not so much for the extra traction they offer but for their improved ability to stop on the ice ...

[philip42h]

22 hours ago, cumbrialass said:

Off to Morecambe ( Toyota) so hopefully the 50 mile journey at a good speed will help. If not I hope they can sort it. 

When we got the Rav in 2014 the 4x4 were only in diesel..so Hobson's choice.  We still need a 4x4..( country tracks , safer in bad weather etc) We'll be doing a lot more milage over the next 6 months...but maybe we need to rethink very carefully what our next car will be.

 

I'm pretty sure that throughout the life of the RAV 4.4 it has been available in AWD form powered by the well-proven 2.0 VVTi petrol engine. That configuration is probably a better bet than the 4.4 hybrid in off-road conditions and given your low annual mileage the additional fuel costs would be pretty irrelevant over the long term. While it's way too late to say that you should have bought a different car (sorry 😉) a trade-in swap may be worth considering ...

As to living with what you already have you now know that you need to take it on regular longer outings to allow the necessary regen cycles to complete - a 50 mile cruise at motorway speed is certainly sufficient and whether you need to do that once a week or once a month will very much depend on your profile of journeys the rest of the time.

In addition, you really ought to treat it to premium diesel - the expensive stuff with extra additives to make your engine run more cleanly. Again, with a low annual mileage the additional cost will be small compared with the potential additional maintenance costs.

And finally, it may be worth running a tankful with a DPF cleaning fuel additive (Wynns, Forte etc.) as you give it a good blast over the next few days ...

Good luck 🙂

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

Kath's RAV is 4wd and came equipped with M&S tyres from new - Toyota fit them as OEM kit - and will do better in off-road conditions than any 2wd car. Unfortunately, Toyota fit summer compound tyres and the M&S marking merely refers to a chunkier tread pattern - it has no formal definition. On ice (or compacted snow) drivers are better off on tyres certified for cold weather use with the 3PMS (3 peaks mountain and snowflake) symbol. A car equipped with cold weather tyres will certainly stop much better in wintry conditions than one on summer tyres with or without the M&S symbol. As to whether a 2wd car on cold weather tyres will provide more of less traction than a 4wd car on summer tyres will depend on the exact conditions of the test - the 4wd, having four driven wheels, inherently has twice the chance of finding traction than a 2wd vehicle.

I run cold weather tyres certified with the 3PMS symbol through the winter - not so much for the extra traction they offer but for their improved ability to stop on the ice ...

Kath didn't mention off-road (although I would agree that if she does need that then an SUV with increased ride height etc. is likely to fair better than most cars. Apparently, at least on the 2019 RAV, Toyota in Europe don't fit M+S tyres as standard even on the AWD version (this is iirc also true of many other SUV manufacturers).

Yes, there is no standard for M+S marking v 3 Peaks where there is an ISO standard but M+S does mean that the manufacturer has declared that the tyre will work better in those conditions than normal tyres.

 but 4x0 does not = 2x1 (where 0=no traction & 1=traction), so 2 wheels capable of getting grip in the conditions are better than 4 incapable.

Yes, it's a grey area ... 😛

.

[philip42h]

38 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

Kath didn't mention off-road (although I would agree that if she does need that then an SUV with increased ride height etc. is likely to fair better than most cars. Apparently, at least on the 2019 RAV, Toyota in Europe don't fit M+S tyres as standard even on the AWD version (this is iirc also true of many other SUV manufacturers).

Yes, there is no standard for M+S marking v 3 Peaks where there is an ISO standard but M+S does mean that the manufacturer has declared that the tyre will work better in those conditions than normal tyres.

 but 4x0 does not = 2x1 (where 0=no traction & 1=traction), so 2 wheels capable of getting grip in the conditions are better than 4 incapable.

Yes, it's a grey area ... 😛

.

🙂 ... oh yes Kath did (even if it's way past pantomine season) - Kath (from Cumbria) said: "We still need a 4x4..( country tracks , safer in bad weather etc)".

While I don't know what comes with a 2019 RAV 4.5 - I haven't got one (yet) - both my previous 4.3 and my current 4.4 came on Bridgestone Dueler H/Ts complete with M&S markings. I'm pretty sure that Kath's 2014 will have M&S tyres fitted as well but we can ask (?). My 4.5, when and assuming I get one, will run on all season tyres with the 3PMS symbol (irrespective of what Toyota try to deliver it on) - but that's an entirely different question ... 🙂

Your equation, while correct, is the answer to the wrong question. The real question is what should drivers of 2wd cars do in winter? They could (a) leave the car in the garage, (b) buy a 4x4, (c) go out and get stuck on the A30 (as so many did last winter) or (d) fit cold weather tyres (as they would be required to do if we were in Germany, for example)? And the obvious, and most cost effective answer is, of course, (d) assuming that one still needs to get out and about in winter (which many of us do, of course). So, yes of course, buy the right tyres for the conditions rather than a 4x4 you don't need.

But a 4x4 on the same tyres will always provide better traction than a 2wd vehicle: 4xt = 2x (2xt) where t represents the traction available to the tyre at any given wheel. And, obviously again, where t=0 you are stuck anyway irrespective of the number of driven wheels! 🙂

[cumbrialass]

Yes I have Bridgestone tyres. Interesting comments re tyres. My 53 reg Rav had Toyo (?) Tyres fitted as standard and they were rubbish at gripping. When I changed tyres ( Dunlop I think) the difference was very noticeable.

The only reason we got our first Rav was we did field archery and my low profile Celica wasn't suitable to park off road ( scraped the exhaust on a rock..and expensive replacement).Which is why we got a Rav.. We rarely get snow as we live on the coast so winter tyres probably aren't necessary.  

[Heidfirst]

3 hours ago, philip42h said:

🙂 ... oh yes Kath did (even if it's way past pantomine season) - Kath (from Cumbria) said: "We still need a 4x4..( country tracks , safer in bad weather etc)".

Country tracks does not  (to me at least) necessarily mean off road nor not car capable - I once took a 2WD Vauxhall Omega estate around a forest MTB track in Speyside much to the astonishment of the cyclists! It wasn't even on M+S tyres but I was trained to drive off road by the Army 😉

Your equation, while correct, is the answer to the wrong question. The real question is what should drivers of 2wd cars do in winter? They could (a) leave the car in the garage, (b) buy a 4x4, (c) go out and get stuck on the A30 (as so many did last winter) or (d) fit cold weather tyres (as they would be required to do if we were in Germany, for example)? And the obvious, and most cost effective answer is, of course, (d) assuming that one still needs to get out and about in winter (which many of us do, of course). So, yes of course, buy the right tyres for the conditions rather than a 4x4 you don't need.

Which is why my Avensis has been on WinterContacts 😉 since November.

And, obviously again, where t=0 you are stuck anyway irrespective of the number of driven wheels! 🙂 

or type of tyres 😛

 

[cumbrialass]

Just a Thanks for the  link.. we've not driven far in the last few weeks..averaging 30 or less  Note to self,  once this is sorted,  to give it a good run more frequently. 

Nb it's not a warning light.. it was a message on the display

"DPF full, Refer to Owners manual"

Saying that, I 've had the car since Sept 2014 and this is the first time this had happened

[cumbrialass]

Phil42 h mentioned using a premium diesel, but my local garages only seem to offer one type ( unlike 2 grades of petrol ) 

On offer in my town is diesel from Tesco ( where I've usually gone) Morrisons , Asda or Shell. Is there much difference been the 4?  

[Heidfirst]

out of those I would say that Shell V-power diesel is the best but it will also be the dearest ...

[Mike169]

Hi Kath.

This is basically how it works...……………….

Several petrol tankers turn up at refinery's, Tesco, Morrisons, BP, Shell and on and on.

To start with they all have the same petrol or diesel put into their tankers not forgetting the tankers a sectioned off inside so they can carry different fuels.

Then depending on what fuel they want it to be then they put in the 'extra's' , cleaners if you like hence the higher grade fuel, petrol or diesel.

Now the cleaner itself does not combust but what it does do is keep the inside of the engine cleaner thus this way it increases the power output.

Supermarkets are known to put in the least amount of the cleaners hence their cheaper prices but long term will coke up the engine more.

If you have a vehicle that does short runs then the dearer stuff technically should save you money as it keeps the engine cleaner and more efficient, long runs help blow all the carbon out.

Many people have 3 tankful's of cheap fuel and then one of the dear stuff giving it a birthday present if you like.

Personally I run my Rav on the dearer stuff but my wife uses whatever diesel (Not red) she finds at the pumps so it keeps my engine clean and more efficient and it saves you having to go to Halfords or similar to buy additives in an attempt to clean the engine, but I think if I do it say 3 times a month then it will keep the insides of the engine cleaner but it appears not to increase you mpg, .

Hope this helps, Mike.