3rd gen Prius oil consumption / head gasket issues?

[Kupuntu]

I've noticed the US based forums often talk about the high oil consumption and head gasket issues. However, I have not noticed much talk about that here. I'm looking to buy a 2013 Prius with roughly 75k miles on it. The only thing I'm not sure about is the possible head gasket issues or oil consumption I've heard of on the internet. Is it really as common as the US forums say?

[Catlover]

I had a gen3, 2010 model, bought with 100k miles, sold 6 months later with 105k, and during that time used no oil. My wife has an Auris hybrid 2010 model, presumably same engine, now done about 78k miles (bought with 65k miles approx. 2 years ago) and again no oil used. My research before buying these two cars didn’t throw up any issues with oil burning BUT my friend bought a 2010 Prius  14 months ago with about 65k miles and it was a shocker for oil usage, though no blue smoke and no leakage. He bought it from a Toyota dealership (at top retail price), and in the end they stripped the engine and replaced rings, not sure if they rebored. But that is the only occurrence I know of.

Maybe you think why did I sold the gen3 after only 6 months/5k miles. I bought the Auris hybrid for myself late May 2017, but really wanted a Prius. Bought the gen3 Prius late Jan 2018 and passed the Auris to the wife (selling a Yaris diesel). Loved the gen 3, really going well, but decided to go for Gen4 and keep for a good few years. So late July 2018 bought a 21 month old Prius Exel with 20.5k miles, in Hypersonic red and 15” wheels - exactly the spec I wanted. No oil problems with that engine.

[PeteB]

Historically, Gen 1 & 2 Prius often started to use a little oil at around 100k (miles).  A gen 1 I had for 9 years used none until then, then started to use a little, but with no signs of leaks on the drive nor visible exhaust smoke.  By the time I sold it at 163k, it went from Max to Min in about 7,000 miles, and adding 1 litre saw it to the next service well above the min mark.

My last Prius was a Gen 3 which had done 60k when I traded it for my current Gen 4, and the dip stick didn't drop at all between services.

My current Gen 4 Prius will not have reached 40k by the time my new RAV4 Hybrid arrives (hopefully late June if not sooner) and unsurprisingly consumes no oil at the moment.

Back the in 1970s/80s, using less oil than 1 litre every 10,000 miles would have been wonderful on most brand new cars! (and they probably wouldn't still be going at 100k!).

[Kupuntu]

Thanks for the replies. The lack of issues on this forum made me think it'd mostly be an issue in the US but that wouldn't make much sense, considering that they use the exact same cars (to my knowledge?) there. However, this makes me more confident in buying the Prius.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Kupuntu said:

.... considering that they use the exact same cars (to my knowledge

As far as I'm aware in previous years the US had different emissions standards to the EU. The US used to be stricter on NOx emissions and particulates, whereas the EU were stricter on CO and CO2. There were also differences in how the emissions were measured.

So there will have been differences between US market vehicles and EU market vehicles. As to whether these make a difference in engine wear, etc is anyone's guess.

[kithmo]

And they have a tendency to change their oil too frequently, which doesn't help the rings bed in when new.

[PeteB]

3 hours ago, kithmo said:

And they have a tendency to change their oil too frequently, which doesn't help the rings bed in when new.

yes, now that you mention it, I remember US Prius owners saying their oil change was required every 5,000 miles.  I don't know if that's still the case these days...

[Kupuntu]

43 minutes ago, PeteB said:

yes, now that you mention it, I remember US Prius owners saying their oil change was required every 5,000 miles.  I don't know if that's still the case these days...

They seem to do this with every car in the US. I don't understand why but apparently even European/Japanese manufacturers recommend much shorter oil change intervals there.

[TonyHSD]

In the hot regions cars engines are working under higher temperatures and leaving same oil for a long time cause a lot of sludge buildup and premature engine failures, that’s most common reason. Since gen 3 Prius I think anywhere around the world oil change is 10k miles or 12 months, and again depends on personal circumstances, if the car driven only occasionally and on short journeys two oil changes per year can help keeping engine cleaner and prevent stuck oil rings. Also using 0w20 oil is important too. 

[QuantumFireball]

I wonder if the different fuel affects the piston rings differently? "Regular" petrol in the US is the equivalent of 91 RON, so is lower octane than the 95 RON we get over here. I've heard that the piston ring design was modified some time around 2015, so any 2ZR-FXE engine up until that point (Gen 3 Prius, Auris Hybrid, CT200h, Prius+) could potentially run into oil consumption issues.

Regarding head gasket failures, I've seen evidence on PriusChat that a blocked EGR cooler can lead to this due to excessive heat. Some suggest cleaning out the EGR valve pipe and cooler around 100k miles. Again, I've only heard of this in the US.

[Gerg]

30 minutes ago, QuantumFireball said:

I wonder if the different fuel affects the piston rings differently? "Regular" petrol in the US is the equivalent of 91 RON, so is lower octane than the 95 RON we get over here.

I'd always thought the same as you do, that US spec engines ran on lower octane petrol, and to back that up, cars and motorcycles often had lower quoted compression ratios and BHP figures than the equivalent models sold in Europe.

But then, a while ago, I stumbled across this information (not from this link - I've just googled this to put on here!):-

https://www.economist.com/babbage/2012/09/17/difference-engine-who-needs-premium

In the middle of this article it says,

"In Europe, the octane rating on the pump is simply the RON figure. America, by contrast, uses the average of the RON and the MON figures, called the AKI (anti-knock index). Thus, 97 octane “super unleaded” in Britain is roughly equivalent to 91 octane premium in the United States."

When did that come about, eh?  I'm happy for this to be disputed, of course

I've cleaned out a secondhand Prius gen 3 EGR cooler that had 55,000 miles on it (it was claimed), it didn't look very bad, I could still see daylight through the matrix easily, but the carbon build-up was going a bit '3-dimensional'.

 

[Gerg]

Re: head gasket failure, if you have the time to spare (quite a lot), then this US posting on the topic of detonation, pre-ignition etc. is quite useful, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

This was from a light aircraft magazine, in that field,  EGT (exhaust gas temperature) seems to be an essential reading to have as a measure of the correct engine operation.

http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html

For what it's worth, I have seen dynamometer operators using the 'tin ear', exactly as described by the author, whilst trying to remap a Camry (yes!) V6 engine that was being tuned at Lotus cars in Hethel for use in an Exige, if I remember correctly.  Basically, I believe they were slimming down all the Toyota built-in safety margins in the map, with the aim of improving throttle response and top end power, so efficiency, arguably. 

In the Prius engine I think in the goal of efficiency (outright mpg this time), they have reduced the safety margins to the extent that detonation is possible if the engine is not running with an effective EGR system.  But then I think you already knew that!

[QuantumFireball]

30 minutes ago, Gerg said:

"In Europe, the octane rating on the pump is simply the RON figure. America, by contrast, uses the average of the RON and the MON figures, called the AKI (anti-knock index). Thus, 97 octane “super unleaded” in Britain is roughly equivalent to 91 octane premium in the United States."

When did that come about, eh?  I'm happy for this to be disputed, of course

Yes, it's always been like that, the yanks have to be different, as usual 🙂 

Though those numbers are a bit off:

"Regular" there is 87 AKI, which is about the equivalent of 91 RON, as I said. And that's what Toyota recommend for the Prius in countries where it's available.

The standard "Unleaded" in the UK and Ireland is 95 RON, which is around 90-91 AKI.

The fancier petrols (V-Power or whatever) in the UK are usually 98-99 RON, which is around 93-94 AKI.

[Gerg]

Ah, I see!

I've never seen the AKI listed as a measure before, just the RON.  I wonder if these units often get swapped around (incorrectly) by journalists?

[AisinW]

Auris, Prius, Corolla hybrid 2010-2012 has older head gasket design (prone to leak at around 150k miles/ 240k Km).  They also tends to use/burn oil if you do not change it every 5000k miles/6 months.   If you always use 0W20 full synthetic oil, the problems are not that common in europe. In USA many Prius owner go to $20 oil change station that put whatever oil there.   

2013 Toyota revised the head gasket design (much less failure after that)

2014 Toyota revised the piston

2015 Toyota revised the piston rings. 

2016 4th Generation Prius engines with higher efficiency, better EGR valve (after the catalytic converter), better transmission design/more compact and use giant wires in the transmissions. 

[drives]

I've just done an egr cooler inspection/clean on our Prius- 2010 and 103000 miles. Always run on Shell (95 ron) fuel and largely motorway miles, for reference. As previously said, the bulk of the info/concern regarding this and head gasket failure is on the US forum so I wondered if there was a link to fuel, or whether in general in the US they rack up the miles more quickly.

Based on the way mine looks that's just come out, I can't see any difference between it and those posted on Priuschat, in that it doesn't look great. Daylight can just about be seen through it in small parts but you can clearly see the build up of carbon on the fins that is blocking large parts of it. Personally speaking, I'd say it needs to be done. What I did was bought a second hand one from eBay (around £50) so I had it ready and pre-cleaned. If I hadn't have tackled it myself, I think this would be the best way to do it and then you could just ask the garage to change the part (let's face it, I doubt they would want to do the cleaning part), and potentially clean the egr pipe whilst they are at it, which is far simpler and requires just a bit of carb cleaner. I used the oven cleaner and jet wash method on the cooler which to be honest made pretty light work of it.

DIY- wise, I did it at the same time as the spark plugs, and removed the wipers, motor and cowling etc. This gives a lot more access but it's still a bit of a pain. If a garage charged just to change the part, it's taken me 2 hours to drain off a bit of coolant and very slowly dismantle everything so probably half a day and well worth peace of mind if you plan to keep your car and run the miles up, as we intend to, I would say...

[AisinW]

There is TSB about reprogram the ECU for the EGR valve mechanism and intake manifold cleaning/replacement in 2015 including the EGR valve kit part number which is cheaper than EGR alone (funny pricing) if your EGR motor is faulty.    Basically you need to clean the EGR pipe elbow from EGR valve to intake manifold and clean the intake manifold EGR holes.  The EGR cooler only need to be blown with air, no need to be removed as long as it is not clogged.  It is exhaust and always dirty anyway.   

 

The head gaskets in 2010-2012 has smaller lips than 2013-up and potentially more prone to head gasket leaks cyl1 to cyl2 especially for people who drive exclusively in the city like UBER or taxi driver. Usually it starts giving problems at around 150-200k miles.  Just watch your coolant level regularly if you have 2010-2012 Prius or Auris hybrid.  

[AisinW]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:40 AM, Catlover said:

I had a gen3, 2010 model, bought with 100k miles, sold 6 months later with 105k, and during that time used no oil. My wife has an Auris hybrid 2010 model, presumably same engine, now done about 78k miles (bought with 65k miles approx. 2 years ago) and again no oil used. My research before buying these two cars didn’t throw up any issues with oil burning BUT my friend bought a 2010 Prius  14 months ago with about 65k miles and it was a shocker for oil usage, though no blue smoke and no leakage. He bought it from a Toyota dealership (at top retail price), and in the end they stripped the engine and replaced rings, not sure if they rebored. But that is the only occurrence I know of.

Maybe you think why did I sold the gen3 after only 6 months/5k miles. I bought the Auris hybrid for myself late May 2017, but really wanted a Prius. Bought the gen3 Prius late Jan 2018 and passed the Auris to the wife (selling a Yaris diesel). Loved the gen 3, really going well, but decided to go for Gen4 and keep for a good few years. So late July 2018 bought a 21 month old Prius Exel with 20.5k miles, in Hypersonic red and 15” wheels - exactly the spec I wanted. No oil problems with that engine.

You can minimize the oil consumption by doing 6months/8000 miles oil change unless you drive mostly highway and always 10 miles or more each trip.  Toyota will replace the whole short block (the whole assembly of piston and cylinder wall), never re-bore the engine. 

[drives]

11 hours ago, AisinW said:

There is TSB about reprogram the ECU for the EGR valve mechanism and intake manifold cleaning/replacement in 2015 including the EGR valve kit part number which is cheaper than EGR alone (funny pricing) if your EGR motor is faulty.    Basically you need to clean the EGR pipe elbow from EGR valve to intake manifold and clean the intake manifold EGR holes.  The EGR cooler only need to be blown with air, no need to be removed as long as it is not clogged.  It is exhaust and always dirty anyway.   

 

The head gaskets in 2010-2012 has smaller lips than 2013-up and potentially more prone to head gasket leaks cyl1 to cyl2 especially for people who drive exclusively in the city like UBER or taxi driver. Usually it starts giving problems at around 150-200k miles.  Just watch your coolant level regularly if you have 2010-2012 Prius or Auris hybrid.  

That is an interesting watch and good to get the perspective of a Toyota technician. I don't doubt that- if it's simply 'soot' on the cooler fins no dramas. Parts of mine were definitely clogged, and clumps of carbon were coming out of it when I cleaned it. Even then I'm sure it would have been serviceable for many more miles

[AisinW]

18 hours ago, drives said:

That is an interesting watch and good to get the perspective of a Toyota technician. I don't doubt that- if it's simply 'soot' on the cooler fins no dramas. Parts of mine were definitely clogged, and clumps of carbon were coming out of it when I cleaned it. Even then I'm sure it would have been serviceable for many more miles

Yes, if you have time, clean it is better but do not worry too much. As long as it is not clogged, it is fine. Problems start when the Valve is clogged and the passages on the intake is not balance/partly clogged. 

[drives]

3 minutes ago, AisinW said:

Yes, if you have time, clean it is better but do not worry too much. As long as it is not clogged, it is fine. Problems start when the Valve is clogged and the passages on the intake is not balance/partly clogged. 

I think an inspection/clean every 100,000 miles probably counts as not worrying about it too much :). Yep next step for me is to take the inlet manifold off. Again, once every 100,000 miles/10 years seems to make sense with these components unless any issues crop up in the interim.

[AisinW]

https://www.scribd.com/document/516261309/156381-2010-Toyota-Prius-Repair-Manual-maintenance-EGR

you can always use prius 3rd gen as the guidance in many parts of auris hybrid