Hybrid air con regas

[Panthor]

My air con isn’t cold so need to have a regas. I found a good offer for ats 37.99 but unfortunately hybrids are excluded.

has anyone used someone other than Toyota for this with success? My local Toyota prices are starting from £130 for a regas or starting from £170 for cleanse and regas.

 

[Catlover]

The difference with hybrids is the gas they use, and it’s more expensive. It’s important to get the right gas, as I understand if the wrong gas is used then problems could occur some time in the future. Good on arts for knowing the difference and stating it. Out of interest, call another Toyota dealer for a 2nd price.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

The difference with hybrids is the gas they use, and it’s more expensive.

Don't think the early hybrids used any different gas to petrol or diesel cars - basically the R134a gas. 

However from January 2018 (delayed by one year), manufacturers had to move over to R1234yf gas (which is more expensive), as that is supposed to be more environmentally friendly. Some manufacturers adopted the new gas early -  for example Toyota and Hyundai. Both our 2015 Hyundai i20 and our 2016 Toyota Aygo  have the new gas in their air con systems.

[chrisgeary]

Also consider why it needs regassing. These should be sealed systems. Is there a leak somewhere?

[Saxmaniac]

It's not the gas that's different but the compressor oil that goes round with the gas. The compressor windings are saturated in the oil so it has to be correct ir burnout will happen. 

[mrpj]

1 hour ago, chrisgeary said:

Also consider why it needs regassing. These should be sealed systems. Is there a leak somewhere?

They are not 100% sealed and, in spite of what some might tell you, do lose some gas over time. The biggest culprit is the compressor's shaft seal. That's why it is recommended to run the system over the colder months. Even around 10 minutes a week is sufficient.

I had mine "regassed" last year, local garage, and over the four years it had lost about 30g of refrigerant. Capacity and type of gas should be on a plate under the bonnet. UV dye added to the system, a Sniffer" and/or pulling and holding a vacuum will determine whether there are any potential leaks. All done using a dedicated machine which extracts the old gas and oil and adds the correct amount of gas and oil.

My system is essentially tight in spite of the small loss.

[TonyHSD]

The best is to check on the bonnet label, it says what gas and oil and how much needs to be used. You don’t need to have leaks to loose some gas over the time as it’s normal especially in heavy use in some hot climates countries. Auris from 2010 has same gas as any other car and basically when the car is hooked up to the recharging machine the mechanic has to choose the make and model of the vehicle before proceed with the process. The oil ., most important think here it has to be ND - Oil 11 this is the spec oil for electric air compressors and if mixed with other type can cause compressor problems, system malfunction or even electrocutes whoever touch the air compressor while operating. Now I remember when I done my one 2 years ago the mechanic did change some oil containers inside the machine before the procedure. No problems ever since so hopefully he did make the right choice . 

[yossarian247]

2 hours ago, mrpj said:

They are not 100% sealed and, in spite of what some might tell you, do lose some gas over time. The biggest culprit is the compressor's shaft seal. That's why it is recommended to run the system over the colder months. Even around 10 minutes a week is sufficient.

 

I think that is less of an issue with hybrids as rather than being pulley driven the compressor is sealed with an electric motor inside, similar to a domestic fridge. Still plenty of connectors in the system to slowly leak over time though.

[Countrylad]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:50 AM, chrisgeary said:

Also consider why it needs regassing. These should be sealed systems. Is there a leak somewhere?

After nine years it isn't unreasonable to need a regas.  Five years would be considered pretty good on most cars. My wife's VW only managed two years on its first charge! (Although, to be fair, VW did recharge it under warranty ,and it was still good five years later when we sold it.)

The issue, as I understand it, is that the refrigerant gas molecules are small enough to slip through the tiny microscopic pores in every flexible joint, no matter how tightly you seal it. So, over the years, a fair number of them are bound to get away. Nothing particularly suspicious about it.

[ArranB]

On 5/23/2019 at 7:35 AM, Panthor said:

My air con isn’t cold so need to have a regas. I found a good offer for ats 37.99 but unfortunately hybrids are excluded.

has anyone used someone other than Toyota for this with success? My local Toyota prices are starting from £130 for a regas or starting from £170 for cleanse and regas.

I’m shocked at the price! Had mine done at my local Toyota dealer last week, full aircon service and regas for £49

[FROSTYBALLS]

19 minutes ago, ArranB said:

I’m shocked at the price! Had mine done at my local Toyota dealer last week, full aircon service and regas for £49

I'm certain the Toyota dealer quote was for the the later, more expensive R1234yf gas - and that quote is about par for the course for this gas. 

Local Toyota dealers to me are quoting £59 for an air con service and £39 for just a regas - excluding vehicles with the R1234yf gas.

Check the label in the engine compartment which states which gas you have, and if the R134a gas, I'd go back and get a quote for R134a gas.

[Saxmaniac]

Just out of interest, with refrigeration systems I have always had the opinion if it ain't broke don't fix it. My previous Vauxhall astra  never had the aircon touched in 14 years and 170k. I just made sure to use it regularly all year round. Any time a system is opened it is contaminated so I would only do it for a specific reason, certainly never regas as a routine service procedure

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Saxmaniac said:

Just out of interest, with refrigeration systems I have always had the opinion if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The OP thought their air con wasn't  cold, so not seeking a regas as a routine service procedure.

Agreed about using air con regularly all year round. We just leave ours on all the time on both cars and have never had an issue. Using air con in winter together with the car's heater provides faster demisting.

[chrisgeary]

Common wisdom seems to be to run AC all year round, but the problems with that, for me at least, are:
a) that the evaporator is always moist.
b) come winter time below 3-4c the compressor will stop running anyway.

a) That constant moisture on the evaporator is why car AC often starts to smell as its become a breeding ground for bacteria during the warmer months. I avoid this by turning off the AC towards the end of a long journey to dry it out. 

b) Some use the AC to prevent misting in winter. Ironically, it is the constant use of the AC that causes the initial misting in the first place. And when the compressor stops in winter because its too cold, all that moisture on the evaporator starts to evaporate and because the glass is very cold, condensation forms and it becomes very difficult to remove. Some have to resort to wiping by hand or making the cabin into a sauna. Eventually, the heater will deal with it but its pretty inconvenient if you're on a busy road somewhere and suddenly your car mists up.

After a few decades on the road and not using AC full time (but still using it every few weeks for a few minutes to maintain the seals), I've never had AC fail due to perished seals, never had to "bomb" clean it nor had my windows mist up during cold, wet weather. I get to save a little extra fuel and keep a bit more charge in my batteries. Win win win. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

31 minutes ago, chrisgeary said:

Some use the AC to prevent misting in winter. Ironically, it is the constant use of the AC that causes the initial misting in the first place.

Not in our experience.

We've had air con in both cars since 1998, and have used air con plus the heater to demist since then. The air con provides dehumidified air to the windscreen. An extract from an RAC article, where they recommend the use of air con when demisting, in the following topic makes interesting reading, and also doesn't support your theory: 

 

[Panthor]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Will ring the dealer again and check on price for my car.

just for info the car was bought used and it wasn’t working when I had it, so obviously not sure how it’s been used for the previous years. I’ve had regas done on other cars and they have then lasted years with no parts needing changing.

[chrisgeary]

7 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Not in our experience.

We've had air con in both cars since 1998, and have used air con plus the heater to demist since then. The air con provides dehumidified air to the windscreen. An extract from an RAC article, where they recommend the use of air con when demisting, in the following topic makes interesting reading, and also doesn't support your theory: 

 

Yep that's great and all, but in winter, it doesn't work since the compressor doesn't operate at temperatures close to freezing. If the AC has been used constantly up to that time, misting is pretty much guaranteed and hard to shift even with the heater. If AC hasn't been used constantly and the evaporator is dried out, winter misting isn't a problem in the first place. It isn't a theory, it is tried and tested. I just don't understand the wasteful use of full time AC during the cooler months. Try drying out your evaporator, you might find that you don't need to use the AC all the time.

[FROSTYBALLS]

We don't have problems with either car misting up inside - and as we change both cars every three years or so, the experience is across makes such as Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Hyundai and Toyota (13 cars since 1998) and market sectors ranging from a city car up to MPV/large hatchback. We have also had a number of cars with either climate control and manual air con.

The owners manual of our current Aygo and i20 both advise use of the air con to de-humidify the air when demisting the windscreen, and one would assume the vehicle manufacturers know their systems.

[chrisgeary]

Yes, you don't have a problem with them misting up because you're using the AC to make sure that it doesn't. I have also regularly changed cars over the last 2 decades or so, also acrtoss many makes (not that that is particularly relevant since AC is basically the same principle in most vehicles), and I've never had problems with misting by not using the AC full time. It's precisely by not using it full time that prevents the condensation that forms on the cold evaporator does not re-evaporate into the cabin. If the evaporator is dry in the first place, misting is not an issue. So the AC is being used to resolve a problem that the AC itself created. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

No.

[Mooly]

When I had an Audi A4 and used to do a 20+ mile commute each day I noticed that as temperatures hovered around freezing the AC could stop working mid journey to protect the compressor and prevent freezing and then you could suddenly experience misting, particularly if there was rain on the glass chilling it as you drove. That was back in the 90's but the technology is the same now as then. If the incoming air is at or below freezing then you have to have the AC turn off, otherwise the moisture created on the evaporator would just freeze solid.

My Auris compressor seems to cut in at most daytime wintertime temperatures I find, but now I don't do the commute. I suspect a lot depends on the conditions. 70 mile an hour in freezing temperatures is a lot different to around meandering around town where local engine heat affecting the intake could be a factor in helping it keep running.   

 

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, chrisgeary said:

Yes, you don't have a problem with them misting up because you're using the AC to make sure that it doesn't. I have also regularly changed cars over the last 2 decades or so, also acrtoss many makes (not that that is particularly relevant since AC is basically the same principle in most vehicles), and I've never had problems with misting by not using the AC full time. It's precisely by not using it full time that prevents the condensation that forms on the cold evaporator does not re-evaporate into the cabin. If the evaporator is dry in the first place, misting is not an issue. So the AC is being used to resolve a problem that the AC itself created. 

Couldn’t agreed more, but different people has a different opinion, technically your are absolutely right and I always do what you described, never have any problems with any of my cars and trust me I drive quite a bit.  

I did check my last regas and it’s shows on the receipt that 100g of gas been used together with 13ml of oil and 5 ml of die agent. I am also suspicious that my system is contaminated because the machine that been used does not support hybrid air con service and even if the right oil was used there is still a possibility of different oil has been introduced to the system. ., however since that time I had traveled more than 50k miles no problems at all, and in 2017 the car was used for a euro trip and air con under heavy use, outside air temp was nearly 40 degrees most of the times. This winter I had only touch the air con once or twice for a period of 3-4 months, works great so far. This summer will do another regas and will see how it goes. Cabin filter I change every two months due to the higher miles. 

For anyone that has a smelly air con due to a fungus growth here is my tip:

1.First change the cabin filter and make sure that all air vents and outside the car vents are clean and free from water and debris, any blockage needs to be cleaned.

2.Start the engine and let it run until reaches normal temperature 85-95C, for hybrid cars please put them into maintenance mode.

3. Turn the heating ON, select max temp and highest blower speed of the fan, set it blow in the middle and lower part of the dash, keep the engine running like that for about half an hour, the extreme heat will kill the bacteria and you will get rid of he bad smell.

Worked for me on many different cars. 

Regards 

[chrisgeary]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

No.

LOL

 

1 hour ago, Mooly said:

When I had an Audi A4 and used to do a 20+ mile commute each day I noticed that as temperatures hovered around freezing the AC could stop working mid journey to protect the compressor and prevent freezing and then you could suddenly experience misting, particularly if there was rain on the glass chilling it as you drove. That was back in the 90's but the technology is the same now as then.

Exactly!

[FROSTYBALLS]

We've not had any problems either with smells coming from the air conditioning despite having it on all the time, nor needing to have the system regassed. 

[Mooly]

Tbh Frosty, if you change your cars every three years as mentioned earlier, then I wouldn't expect any issues such as needing to regas.

One thought does always occur to me and that is that new vehicles that stand around waiting to be sold (and of course same applies to second hand vehicles) potentially could lose a significant amount of refrigerant due to inactivity. Its a pity that there isn't an easy check on levels at the point of sale.