Avensis 2.0 D4D not starting after head gasket replacement

[Safi]

As a new member Hello to the forum. 

My Avensis is in the garage for head gasket repair due to oil n water mix. The head skimmed replaced gasket etc and all fitted back, mechanic started left running for few minutes, and engine stopped. Now it won’t start , any suggestions he has checked all is fitted correctly. 

Many thanks for your help in advance.  

[FROSTYBALLS]

Welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

Moved to the Avensis club.

[Heidfirst]

has he stuck a code reader on it?

[Safi]

Hi Heidfirst,

Yes he has used the Snapon Computer and also another one cant recall the name , and he cannot get any readings on this for some reason, thats all I know, I was there yesterday, after the initial start last week, and it cut out, he has not managed to start it after rechecking and back tracking... The Engine Cranks up but not fire up. He also used additional Battery to boost the power but hasn't  helped.  I need my Estate back as its loosing me work!!! its now been for over 3 weeks 😞 

[Mike169]

Hi Safi.

Do you know if your engine is cambelt or timing chained driven?

Regards, Mike,.

[Safi]

Hi Mike, 

Its timing Chain

[avetoy]

Do you know if there was any strange noises when engine stopped?  Engine running poorly before stopping, etc...

Is the h-g job done engine in place? If so there may be something loose (wire, hose,...).

It is really difficult to succeed when engine in place. 

[Mike169]

Hi Safi.

May I suggest you check your water level in the header tank and oil level on the dipstick and while you are looking at the dipstick is the oil on it looking normal or does it look light coffee coloured?

Regards, Mike.

[Safi]

2 hours ago, avetoy said:

Do you know if there was any strange noises when engine stopped?  Engine running poorly before stopping, etc...

Is the h-g job done engine in place? If so there may be something loose (wire, hose,...).

It is really difficult to succeed when engine in place. 

Hi Avetoy, 

The Engine was in Place with the Head taken out for Skimming and checking for Cracks etc...  refitted with new H-G etc..it started and ran for few minutes then  suddenly died. After which   not been able to restart, it cranks over i think he said around 500-600 Rpm if am not mistaken.  Yes perhaps its simple as loose wire or hose . He hasn't called me today so I will call him tomorrow to get update and will post .

 

[Safi]

2 hours ago, Mike169 said:

Hi Safi.

May I suggest you check your water level in the header tank and oil level on the dipstick and while you are looking at the dipstick is the oil on it looking normal or does it look light coffee coloured?

Regards, Mike.

Hi Mike, 

In-fact I will go to the garage tomorrow and get him to check the water and Oil .

 Are you suggesting that head has not been fitted correctly.  

When I gave the car for H-G job I did tell him that with 185000 miles it runs so smooth and he also noticed this, there was no missing or out of step mis-fire as I rev'd the engine gently.

He did suggest that the Injectors may have gone but that not possible due to it been very smooth prior to the start of the repair.

There is the 5th Injector which he was going to check today and EGR valve and clean , however this was not an issue before so am not convinced any of these. He did say it probably something simple.

Is it possible  the timing chain go off sync after starting and hence it died?

Thank you all for again for your help and support.

[Mike169]

Hi Safi.

The fact the engine was running  very well before the H/D change suggests to me that all of your injectors are all running OK and on many models they are expensive and have to be tuned into the car, i.e. they are not just bolt in and fitted,

I suggest as a last resort you take it to a main Toyota Dealer and have them do a diagnostic check, may seem expensive at the time but may leave you with a piece of mind as to why your car is not working properly as I am politely suggesting your mechanic may be 'punching out of his weight' and doesn't know the engine inside out.

Like I said check the oil and water levels first and if they are OK carry on from there.

Regards, Mike. 

[avetoy]

Hello Safi!

Local Toyota dealer´s workshop boss told me that they have had several cases where some minor  workshops have tried the h-g job engine in place and after the failure the car was finally brought to them. Avensis engine compartment is so tight that it is very difficult to get it done properly. There is great danger that there will be leaks (seals are not properly inserted, bolts or nuts are loose), etc. I have heard that even new head gasket has been damaged during installation.

Of course you have to let this mechanic try to correct his mistake but if it seems hopeless then you must turn to Mr T.

 

[Safi]

Hi Mike/Avetoy

Thank you both for your messages, He is a good Mechanic recommended to me by several garages locally, he also has done lots of engines including Toyota, hopefully he will sort my car.

I will report back after my visit to him.

Have a great day.

Safi

[Safi]

Hello Gents

So I went this morning , he has tried another set of Injectors yesterdays , this made no difference, as expected,  The timing was rechecked again,  Later he removed the Exhaust connection to the Turbo,  managed to start after some cranking however it very noisy, very rattly and erratic,  of course with lots off smoke as not going through the exhaust outlet as it would normally

Upon leaving later  he was suspecting the Head with valves not opening .... Am not sure of this as the Cylinder Head was taken to a usual reputable company used by the Mechanic for skimming and pressure testing etc..., it came back all good hence he fitted it back.   

 The Compression was tested as ok, , also that by removing each sensor it would show up in the computer and by re-connection no fault codes. 

Tomorrow Morning he will check with the engineering company the details of the skim and pressure . If the Skim was done past the wear limit it would hit the pistons, correct me if I am wrong and potentially damage the valves and pistons. ...

The good thing is Mechanic  agreed that the car was perfect in terms of its running, no prior noises and very smooth other than the Water mixing with Oil.

Any further thoughts?

Many thanks again

Safi

[avetoy]

As far as I know there is 3 different thickness of head gaskets available. The new one should be chosen according to how much they have skimmed. Clearance between piston and head is made with the gasket. So if the new gasket is too thin damages could have happened.

11 hours ago, Safi said:

Tomorrow Morning he will check with the engineering company the details of the skim and pressure .

Is it so that this mechanic has not checked the details of the skim before installing the new gasket?

11 hours ago, Safi said:

managed to start after some cranking however it very noisy, very rattly and erratic,  of course with lots off smoke as not going through the exhaust outlet as it would normally

Sounds bad...

Hopefully you get this issue fixed without the big money loss!

[Safi]

32 minutes ago, avetoy said:

As far as I know there is 3 different thickness of head gaskets available. The new one should be chosen according to how much they have skimmed. Clearance between piston and head is made with the gasket. So if the new gasket is too thin damages could have happened.

Is it so that this mechanic has not checked the details of the skim before installing the new gasket?

Sounds bad...

Hopefully you get this issue fixed without the big money loss!

Good Morning Avetoy,

Yes am concerned about the loud sounds, but he must sort out the problem as it wasn't there when I gave him the Car. 

Keep smiling :)..

Safi..

[Safi]

6 hours ago, Safi said:

Good Morning Avetoy,

Yes am concerned about the loud sounds, but he must sort out the problem as it wasn't there when I gave him the Car. 

Keep smiling :)..

Safi..

Hi Guys,

So  the Head was skimmed and tested, but the Valves were not cleaned and resealed etc...but the Engineering company,  they were just put back I guess. The Mechanic also the fitted the Head as it arrived, ow he will remove the rocker cover and recheck the clearances on all the valves and adjust and refit and try. He seems hopeful I will get the car back tomorrow, lets see.

Does this all make scene now with non starting after shutdown and then very noisy and rattly from removing the exhaust from the turbo.

Regards

Safi

[Kennycab]

I would say you need to find out which head gasket was originally fitted to the car. Can you get the old gasket from the mechanic ? There are a number of notches on the gasket denoting it's thickness, which will have been selected when the engine was built based on how far the pistons protrude from the head when at TDC. My car originally had 3 notches on.

Then you need to find out from the engineers or the mechanic exactly how much was removed from the head, and how many notches are on the new gasket. The new gasket needs to be thicker than the old by at least the same amount as was skimmed off the head to avoid problems.

For example, the head off my car had 0.1mm or 4 thousandths of an inch skimmed off. The old gasket had 3 notches, the new gasket was the thickest one that had 5 notches and is 0.1mm thicker than the original so I was lucky, it just worked out perfectly. However, if the gasket were to go again and the head was in need of skimming again then this would not be possible, I would have to find another head.

If the engine has been reassembled with less clearance between pistons and head than before it could be that the engine started up ok but as it warmed up and everything expanded then there might have been some interference between pistons and valves causing your problem. However, something like this would normally show as low compression on one or more cylinders and you say that compression test was ok.

A silly question but does the car have enough diesel in it and is the fuel filter ok and all pipework correctly connected in the correct way ? Perhaps one of the pipes is reversed and it's not getting enough fuel ? I assume the filter can be primed ok ?

[Kennycab]

Valve clearances are taken care of by hydraulic adjusters but if the rocker cover is removed and the engine turned you should be able to see if the valves are opening and closing ok, if compression is ok then they are probably sealing ok.

[Safi]

HI Kenny

Thank you your response, , the original was 3 Notches and the replacement was also 3 notches, I did raise this with the Mechanic, but he said its ok. 

This morning  I went to the garage the main mechanic is on leave and his other member was putting the rocker cover back after testing the injectors on the bench with and the fuel rail to check for any blockage, there was no blockage as I would have expected. He also confirmed that timing and compression was all ok, though I was not provided any figures.  he was to start later and let me know the progress, but he did call me back, so I guess a trip to the garage in the morning will need to be made.

Any other thoughts?

I appreciate all the guidance provided.

Many thanks

Safi

 

[+robster+]

Sounds a load of incompetence . Trying this and that and what may be a longshot without any facts figures or reason.

No fault codes .. is ECU fried from a wrong polarity jump start?

As above are fuel  feed and return mixed up?

Can they measure rail pressure?

Are the injectors being triggered?

Is crank sensor or pickup faulty.?

Has immobiliser got problems?

Etc.

Of course you won't know as you are getting told bs while they kid on they are throwing parts at it?

Did you see the spare 4 injectors they tried and were they able to code them to ECU?

[avetoy]

9 hours ago, +robster+ said:

Sounds a load of incompetence . Trying this and that and what may be a longshot without any facts figures or reason.

I have to agree. Sounds that this garage really does not know what to do. I think you should soon take the car to Mr T to avoid further damages.

They may want to do the whole job again from the beginning (if they agree to accept your car).

On 6/12/2019 at 10:57 PM, Safi said:

The good thing is Mechanic  agreed that the car was perfect in terms of its running, no prior noises and very smooth other than the Water mixing with Oil.

Payer of  Mr T bill should be this garage. You should only pay the originally agreed amount to the garage. And what about the fact that you have been without a car for a long time; perhaps some rebate?

Hopefully this garage has insurance...

[Kennycab]

On 6/18/2019 at 9:02 PM, Safi said:

HI Kenny

Thank you your response, , the original was 3 Notches and the replacement was also 3 notches, I did raise this with the Mechanic, but he said its ok. 

Did you find out how much was skimmed off the head ? If the head has been skimmed then reassembled with same thickness gasket then this will raise the compression ratio and bring the valves closer to the piston which could be why it is noisy, either diesel knock or mechanical interference between valve head and piston.

 

 

[Mike169]

Hi Safi.

Given with the greatest of respect your mechanic does not know what he is talking about.

Kenny's comment above this one is totally correct in as much as to start with you have a bad engine where the clearance between the cylinder header head and the pistons isn't enough.

Yet your mechanic had the head skimmed with the same thickness head gasket reducing the clearance even further, too far, this is asking for trouble.

You need the thickest head gasket possible for maximum safety as if you are having trouble now it will just get worse especially when you get carbon deposits on the piston crowns.

In my personal opium you need the job redone with the thickest head gasket possible and any internal damage possibly done already, bent valves etc before your engine is safe to use.

Fondest regards, Mike.

[Kennycab]

When I bought the new head gasket from Toyota the guy told me that if they were doing a head gasket then they would always fit the thickest gasket. If it lowered the compression slightly then it would be hardly noticeable and would give a little more margin for it being raised by carbon deposits in future.