Electric vehicle recharging - the way to the future?

[wass]

On 7/5/2019 at 8:45 AM, alan333 said:

Re car charging... if electric cars used some form of universal battery with a quick release mechanism then maybe swapping a flat one for a fully charged one could be a simple two minute operation at a petrol filling station.

That would require joined up thinking. I suspect that profit motivation would creep in to kybosh the idea. Margins would be smaller and there would be less room for, shall we call them "industry passengers"? Parasitic hangers on plague the petrochemical industry and some of them wield a great amount of influence.

[toshtosh]

On 7/9/2019 at 11:43 AM, Catlover said:

Batteries will get smaller, charge times will decrease, new technology in the next 10 years will see lot more changes then over the last 10 years. Thats progress.

Whilst you are undoubtedly correct the fundamental issue will still be getting the power into the Battery - To get 80kWh (400 miles range) into a rep mobile (The equivalent of 24 hours on a domestic charger) will still take 24 hours and even the largest capacity domestic units would take overnight. Although even a 50% reduction in weight per kWh would still leave the Battery weighing a couple of hundred kilos.

As for the so called "fact" that most EV journeys are only a few miles, surely that is simply because potential BEV car owners are range terrified until there is a reliable public charging network. Our daily use pattern of the PHEV is 4 days commuting (all BEV) and then a touring weekend of between 200 and 500 miles (mixed EV and hybrid miles)

Even with a 200 mile range I couldn't do a day trip to either of my in-laws in a BEV without recharging.

 

Cheers

Tony B

 

[kithmo]

21 hours ago, toshtosh said:

As for the so called "fact" that most EV journeys are only a few miles, surely that is simply because potential BEV car owners are range terrified until there is a reliable public charging network. 

IIRC I think the "fact" you're quoting was actually referring to all cars, not just EVs, which is where they get there justification for going over to BEVs.

 

[paul9]

Mis-posted. Mods, please remove this post.

[Cjohnston1982]

On 7/11/2019 at 1:51 PM, toshtosh said:

Whilst you are undoubtedly correct the fundamental issue will still be getting the power into the battery - To get 80kWh (400 miles range) into a rep mobile (The equivalent of 24 hours on a domestic charger) will still take 24 hours and even the largest capacity domestic units would take overnight. Although even a 50% reduction in weight per kWh would still leave the battery weighing a couple of hundred kilos.

 

Absolutely right. It doesn’t matter how small, light or power dense the batteries become, it’ll still need the same amount of power to move almost 2 tons of car for 400 miles which will then need to be recharged again quickly.

Therefore like I’ve said before, hydrogen is the only sensible solution for the masses.

[johalareewi]

On 6/25/2019 at 7:53 PM, TP49 said:

Yes, as you say the best compromise. They come up with these ideas but never have the infrastructure in place for it to work properly.

It was dreadful when petrol cars first came out. 😉

 

[johalareewi]

On 6/26/2019 at 6:11 AM, Mick F said:

This is the trouble.

3p per mile isn't much less than a petrol car doing 60mpg.

Round figures: 4.5L per Imp Gallon for 60miles x (4.5 x £1.28) = 9.6p per mile

Mick.

 

It might not look much but 6.6p times the number of miles travelled adds up to some serious wonga if you drive a lot. And petrol/diesel is going up faster then electricity.  Also there are free EV charging points.  I don't know any free petrol stations.

 

[johalareewi]

On 6/25/2019 at 4:02 PM, toshtosh said:

 

And this is where the limitation on the growth of EVs becomes apparent - public charge points.

There is a multitude of providers, physical connectors, fees and charge rates. Many of the current points are poorly signed, often occupied by non-EV cars and frequently out of action. You also get EV users who simply connect and leave the vehicle for several hours, especially when linked to free parking - the connectors lock in place until released by owner. So in a town with only a couple of connectors your chance of finding one available is poor.

Tony B

Spot on and the rates charged by some networks make electricity more expensive than petrol/diesel.  

[johalareewi]

On 7/9/2019 at 8:05 PM, wass said:

Parasitic hangers on plague the petrochemical industry and some of them wield a great amount of influence.

Vested interest is always a tough nut to crack and as long as there is demand for crude oil, there will be petrol and diesel as part of the refining process.

[Mick F]

1 hour ago, johalareewi said:

Also there are free EV charging points.  I don't know any free petrol stations.

 

Where are these "free" charging points?  They're not free if you have to drive miles to find one, but at least the petrol stations are nearby and plentiful.

At this present moment in time, owning an EV is an expensive and inconvenient way of owning a car.

Mick.

[Cjohnston1982]

38 minutes ago, Mick F said:

Where are these "free" charging points?  They're not free if you have to drive miles to find one, but at least the petrol stations are nearby and plentiful.

At this present moment in time, owning an EV is an expensive and inconvenient way of owning a car.

Mick.

Totally agree. I think the public will move towards plug-in hybrids then ultimately hydrogen. Yes there is a market for full EVs but I can’t see it being the most popular choice 

[HSDish]

3 hours ago, Mick F said:

Where are these "free" charging points?  They're not free if you have to drive miles to find one, but at least the petrol stations are nearby and plentiful.

At this present moment in time, owning an EV is an expensive and inconvenient way of owning a car.

Mick.

I live in Sweden and here it's still quite common with free chargers. In our small city (about 35.000 people in town) here is at least 20 free charging points (and guaranteed "clean current" ) in an 5 km(about 3 miles I think) range/area/radius.

[PeteB]

In this part of the East of England there are still very few places to charge away from home, and I still wouldn't have chosen a Tesla with a 300 mile range because although the situation has improved very slightly, it's still going to be a major challenge to do some of my longer trips, especially if a charging point I plan to rely on is unavailable.

In fact, on one of the 250 mile round trips I do once or twice most months, several charging points have actually ceased to exist since demise of Little Chefs (which are now a mixture of Burger King/Greggs shared sites, McDonalds or Starbucks).

The 4th Gen Prius that I bought just over 3 years ago more or less cured me of a desire for an EV since I could fill it with unleaded from almost empty for about £45 and then do over 600 miles before refuelling again.  I had expected to keep this car until developing health issues see my driving licence revoked, but reckoned without the lowness of the car causing severe hip pains that started spreading to knees and back due to the strain I put on them getting in and out awkwardly while to try to minimise the pain.

My new RAV4 will also do about 600 miles on a tank, thanks to a much larger tank that takes about £60 to fill 🥺.  It still goes further on each gallon than a tiny 600cc Fiat 126 I owned in the 1970s, despite it's weight, 2½ litre petrol engine and aerodynamics akin to a house brick towing a parachute!  Plus, my hips are now 80-90% better and I no longer need the 8-10 strong painkillers I had been taking daily.  This car had definitely better be my last!

[Ten Ninety]

On 8/3/2019 at 11:48 PM, Cjohnston1982 said:

Absolutely right. It doesn’t matter how small, light or power dense the batteries become, it’ll still need the same amount of power to move almost 2 tons of car for 400 miles which will then need to be recharged again quickly.

Therefore like I’ve said before, hydrogen is the only sensible solution for the masses.

I do not understand this argument, at all. Who are these people who need to drive 400 miles and then recharge within 5 minutes? Just because that's possible with traditional fuels or hydrogen, doesn't mean that anyone actually ever does it! Hydrogen has a lot of positives, but it is absolutely not 'the only sensible solution' for the masses when you look to the future. Nobody in their right mind would choose to visit a filling station every week when there's a better alternative.

Range and charging time are already solved problems for BEVs. There are certainly other problems remaining, not least the energy generation question already discussed which is an equal problem for hydrogen. Purchase cost remains excessive, but falling rapidly. The current public charging system is undeniably pathetic, but it will gradually get up to speed as consumer demand ramps up. Really, the only significant longer-term barrier to universal adoption of BEVs is the minority who can't get easy access to home charging because they don't have a garage or drive. Even then, as the public and workplace charging infrastructure builds out, that will be less of an issue. A substantial chunk of people living in those types of homes will be younger, and will increasingly choose not to own a vehicle anyway. And once Level 5 autonomy is a thing, the car can just tootle off and charge itself at the nearest charge point.

Would it be sensible for people without home charging facilities buy a BEV now? Of course, not. But in 10-15 years it will certainly be a viable choice. And, in 15-20 years, quite probably the only choice. 

I like hydrogen. It's got a lot going for it. But despite the handful of flag-wavers in the industry who believe in it, it already seems to have missed the boat. The current BEV charging infrastructure is appallingly shoddy and unfit for purpose, but it's still incomparably advanced compared to the virtually non-existent hydrogen refuelling infrastructure. Similarly with the vehicles themselves - production hydrogen models are still low-volume and prohibitively expensive, whereas BEVs are already starting to dip down to affordable levels. BEVs have too large a lead now for hydrogen to ever catch up, and as Battery technologies continue to improve range and decrease charge times, hydrogen is surely destined to remain a minority interest irrespective of its many merits.

[Heidfirst]

3 minutes ago, Ten Ninety said:

 Really, the only significant longer-term barrier to universal adoption of BEVs is the minority who can't get easy access to home charging because they don't have a garage or drive.

I don't think it's a minority.

[Catlover]

Any one watch Formula-E, the alternative to F1 petrol driven cars (although they have a Hybrid system). Formula-E, all electric F1 type cars, came on the scene about 4-5 years ago. They race mostly in cities, not race tracks, around the world ie Rome, Paris, New York etc.  When F-E started, drivers had to pit about half way through to change cars. Their batteries would not last a full race and stopping to charge is not a viable option. SO, a spare car with a full charge had to be available.  When a driver pitted was up to race strategy built on how well the driver had "looked after" his Battery.   This year a car can, and does, a full race on one Battery.  You see, technology has advanced to make batteries smaller and more powerful. That technology in F-E is transferred to road cars.

Further, a race driver can choose if he wants, to run (race) over a different part of track to normal racing line, and pass over a booster station within the road surface. SO, he gets a Battery boost meaning he can put his foot down more, because he has extra energy available in the car to do it.  Going off the racing line will cost him time, so he has to weigh up the advantage of an extra power boost, against the disadvantage of taking a second or two longer.

Point is, the battery charge came from a "charging station" under the road surface.  Thats where F-E is today - that technology will be available in electric road vehicles "tomorrow", its there, being tested and refined in racing situations where reliability is key to being successful, its not fairy story, its real.  

Just think where that technology could be............  M-Ways (inside lane?), approaching roundabouts (cars slow enough to pick up large chunk of charge), entrance to supermarket car parks (extra slow speed, bigger charge picked up).  How would that suit the house/flat holder with no drive and no easy prospect of using a "home" charging point.? Problem solved.

The start of the industrial revolution is what, less than 200 years ago.  Just imagine what will be done in the next 20-40-60 years. Mind boggling

[furtula]

With increase in electric car production, i doubt the network of chargers will be able to keep up, as far as i know, there is still no unified charging port.

Imagine in 10 years, when there will be substantial people with all electric, trying to reach some tourist destination during summer holidays.

They will all leave around 6-7 pm on a friday, all be needing to recharge at around the same time, hopefully by that time the average charge will take few minutes, otherwise i can imagine people queuing up.

19 minutes ago, Catlover said:

The start of the industrial revolution is what, less than 200 years ago.  Just imagine what will be done in the next 20-40-60 years. Mind boggling

Sadly, i am not that optimistic,  50 years ago a man landed on the moon, and what progress have we made so far? Everything in our society is profit driven, but if they can sell us the same product over and over with a bit nicer face, why invent something better? They are all trying to cust costs to be competitive, and spending an awfull lot on new engines is not really profitable.

Look at modern cars, as compared to 90's, maybe people then thought how we will get 200Kw with 2l engine and 200 mpg.

27 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Point is, the battery charge came from a "charging station" under the road surface.  Thats where F-E is today - that technology will be available in electric road vehicles "tomorrow", its there, being tested and refined in racing situations where reliability is key to being successful, its not fairy story, its real.  

Just think where that technology could be............  M-Ways (inside lane?), approaching roundabouts (cars slow enough to pick up large chunk of charge), entrance to supermarket car parks (extra slow speed, bigger charge picked up).  ow would that suit the house/flat holder with no drive and no easy prospect of using a "home" charging point.

Wireless charging for now is still a gimmick, with around 60-80% efficiency at best, the rest is lost and converted into heat, and it's slower than cable.

I hope popularity of F1 helps fix these issues, but it would be more beneficial to have big parking lots outfitted with charging ports instead of wireless charging pads, esp considering the vast amount of electricity lost due to inefficiency.

But how clean are electric cars? The power still comes from a dirty source, and considering the higher costs for batteries, is it actually cleaner?

I find it funny that you have the western world trying to be all nice and clean, "saving" the world we destroyed, feeling so good about ourselves, while still pumping out a ton of pollutants from other sources,  with rest of the world just plows on, negating our reduction.

[toshtosh]

A quick check on wireless charging indicates that the car needs to be parked during charging and takes similar times to charge as wired connections. (Qualcomm Halo).

https://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/files/wireless-charging-for-electric-vehicles-faq.pdf

It seems as if it will be a viable alternative to the current stand up poles in car parks and in home domestic chargers - Once car manufacturers add them into the original build.

So under roads topping up your charge seems science fiction.

Cheers

Tony B

 

[Ten Ninety]

20 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

I don't think it's a minority.

In England it is, as 66% of all properties have garages or off-street parking. Not sure about the other parts of the UK. To be fair, you'd be right to point out that it is a significant body of people, but that just makes it more likely that the solutions are going to come.

7 hours ago, furtula said:

Imagine in 10 years, when there will be substantial people with all electric, trying to reach some tourist destination during summer holidays.

They will all leave around 6-7 pm on a friday, all be needing to recharge at around the same time, hopefully by that time the average charge will take few minutes, otherwise i can imagine people queuing up.

Based on the current EVs for sale and the current charging infrastructure, you'd have a point. However, in your ten-years-out scenario, BEVs will be getting hundreds of miles off a few minutes' charge and consumer demand (a.k.a. your profit motive) will have ensured the charging infrastructure will be sufficient to supply the power. Yes, if you're daft enough to go on a long-distance holiday on a busy summer weekend without charging up beforehand, you'll be paying surge-pricing for your electricity and you'll probably have to queue at a charge point for a bit. Exactly like you would now for petrol or diesel in an overpriced motorway service station! 

7 hours ago, furtula said:

But how clean are electric cars? The power still comes from a dirty source, and considering the higher costs for batteries, is it actually cleaner?

You're right that BEVs are not going to solve climate change, but they do solve the equally-important problem of localised vehicle pollution and its very real effects on health. Hydrogen also does this. Either way, reducing the number of polluting vehicles on our city, town and village streets is a worthy ambition.

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, Ten Ninety said:

In England it is, as 66% of all properties have garages or off-street parking.

Off-street parking doesn't mean a drive & most certainly doesn't mean that it would be suitable for/have access to charging. (I take it that you are using figures from the 2010 English Housing Survey Homes 2010 "In 2010, 40% of dwellings had use of a garage, 26% had other off street parking"?

& up here at least they are building developments/flats with fewer parking spaces than apartments - technically you could say that they have use of off-street parking available, just not for 100% of the building at any 1 time ... & that is assuming only 1 vehicle per apartment.

[Catlover]

6 hours ago, toshtosh said:

A quick check on wireless charging indicates that the car needs to be parked during charging and takes similar times to charge as wired connections. (Qualcomm Halo).

So under roads topping up your charge seems science fiction.

Watch the next Formula E race to see it is NOT science fiction. It’s happening “today”.

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

Watch the next Formula E race to see it is NOT science fiction. It’s happening “today”.

Not in the way that you think - they drive through an "activation zone" which unlocks an extra power setting in the car for a certain period of time - they don't actually garner any extra charge.

[Catlover]

Ah, ok

[toshtosh]

Certainly underfloor wireless charging seems a viable way forward for those without access to plug-in options at home. Car parks could easily be modified, pads placed outside your house with restricted parking signage ( much as dedicated disabled bays) and power taken from nearby street furniture. 

No trailing cables to be stolen or fallen over, efficient rates of transfer and easy to make Smart.

In addition just think how many bays supermarket and service stations could install.

Cheers

Tony B

[MyOpinionIsWorthless]

On 6/25/2019 at 6:29 PM, Catlover said:

Hybrid is the best compromise at the moment.

Just spent a week on holiday in and around Gloucester, didnt see one charging point.  Good job I wasnt 100% electric, I was happy using little fuel yet going lots of miles on hybrid.

Bringing this discussion forward a couple of years. 
services on M4 1613 parking spaces. 4 charging points.  I’d like to raise another question to all the Prius PHEV owners. 
how many time do you find yourself relying on the petrol hybrid rather than the electric motor?