Acoustic Vehicle Alert Systems (AVAS) legislation in effect from 1st July 2019

[Haliotis]

Ah, Type Approval. An occurrence in the past has always made me wonder how this works in practice.

When I bought my 54-plate VW Touran (new), I had a tow bar fitted before taking delivery of it.  I noticed it did not have tell tale light or audible signal to show that the caravan indicators were working. Questioning this with the dealership, I was told that the facia bulb failure lamp detected the caravan lights when it was connected, and they demonstrated this to be so.

In club discussions with other caravanners I was fiercely advised that my car was illegal.  My enquiries due to my concern eventually ended with me exchanging info with the office for the Minister of Transport.

It was explained to me that, in theory, my vehicle was not legal.  But the bulb warning light as arranged on my car had become a common factor with cars manufactured in other countries (including those made for export to the UK), and the situation had become acceptable “by the back door”.

So, how rigidly is Type Approval applied in practice?

[FROSTYBALLS]

7 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

So, how rigidly is Type Approval applied in practice

Which is a question for another topic.

[GoneFishin247]

It's very annoying that Toyota (and others) have chosen to ignore the part of UK legislation which states these systems can include a form of temporary disablement. As always it's catering for the lowest common denominator not to include such. They should instead trust the customer to judge when they need these audio systems switched on and when they don't.

Some manufacturers are including on/off functions for their pedestrian warning systems. They default to always on whenever the vehicle is started. Simple. It's worse though for Toyota because their always on implementation on vehicles such as the RAV4 is loud and shrill where it does not need to be. Proven by other models within their own stable being far less obnoxious.

So now we have a new form of noise pollution which is permanently on. If you are lucky enough to live in a lightly populated area then you'll likely not be too perturbed. If you live in a town centre surrounded by traffic and car parks then this will become a greater problem as EV's and Hybrids increase in number. RAV4 and others are loud and jarring. A daily cacophony of them may over time lead to damaged mental health.

Hopefully before that happens Toyota will offer software updates to mellow their AVAS output as well as allowing it to be temporarily disabled as the law affords.

[Paul john]

6 minutes ago, GoneFishin247 said:

It's very annoying that Toyota (and others) have chosen to ignore the part of UK legislation which states these systems can include a form of temporary disablement. As always it's catering for the lowest common denominator not to include such. They should instead trust the customer to judge when they need these audio systems switched on and when they don't.

Some manufacturers are including on/off functions for their pedestrian warning systems. They default to always on whenever the vehicles is started. Simple. It's worse though for Toyota because their always on implementation on vehicles such as the RAV4 is loud and shrill where it does not need to be. Proven by other models within their own stable being far less obnoxious.

So now we have a new form of noise pollution which is permanently on. If you are lucky enough to live in a lightly populated area then you'll likely not be too perturbed but if you live in a town centre surrounded by traffic and car parks then this will become a greater problem as EV's and Hybrids increase in number. RAV4 and others are loud and jarring. A daily cacophony of them may over time lead to damaged mental health.

Hopefully before that happens Toyota will offer software updates to mellow their AVAS output as well as allowing it to be temporarily switched off as the law affords.

When the ice is charging the Battery and you are moving at less than 14mph the AVAS does not sound.

[GoneFishin247]

5 minutes ago, Paul john said:

When the ice is charging the battery and you are moving at less than 14mph the AVAS does not sound.

I've seen that when looking into the RAV4 hybrids but feel it's more a pita workaround than a proper inbuilt function to disable AVAS.

Many people would like to turn if off when parking at home for example, particularly at night. Personally I'd like to switch it off on arrival at lakes and rivers. I'm sure there are other valid scenarios where it's safe and reasonable to turn it off and doubt they can all be met by trying to get the ICE side of the hybrid running. In any case you've then lost what should surely be a benefit of hybrid and full EV running: silence and serenity.

What happens when the majority of our road network is changed to 20mph. Barely fast enough for these systems to turn off. Towns will be a constant drone of spaceship and angel choirs. A fair bit louder than modern ICE vehicles to boot. Is that really what we want. The early MK4 RAV4's aren't even silent when stopped unless you put them into park. ICE vehicles switch their engines off at rest and so are silent.

Surely this stuff has been ill thought out at best. But, a simple software update program could go a long way to improving matters and from what I've seen online would pay for itself via less potential customers being put off a purchase.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Tough I'm afraid, it's here to stay.

[GoneFishin247]

6 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Tough I'm afraid, it's here to stay.

Quite a few are simply disabling the systems which is of course a terrible net result for a safety feature. Again, a simple software update could help stop that.

In general I agree, the situation is what it is. Although Toyota look to have realised the error of their ways because (as I understand it) the newer RAV4's have a less egregious set of tones and volumes and in stop start traffic do go silent at rest.

I'm sure other brands are honing their systems and perhaps more will include an on/off feature. The trouble is even with improvements to later vehicles the early model years will remain on the roads on mass for a long time. As you say, tough bananas seems to be the response.

[Paul john]

13 minutes ago, GoneFishin247 said:

Quite a few are simply disabling the systems which is of course a terrible net result for a safety feature. Again, a simple software update could help stop that.

In general I agree, the situation is what it is. Although Toyota look to have realised the error of their ways because (as I understand it) the newer RAV4's have a less egregious set of tones and volumes and in stop start traffic do go silent at rest.

I'm sure other brands are honing their systems and perhaps more will include an on/off feature. The trouble is even with improvements to later vehicles the early model years will remain on the roads on mass for a long time. As you say, tough bananas seems to be the response.

You seem to have come to your own conclusion . So i guess you wont be buying a Rav4 and joining the club

[GoneFishin247]

13 minutes ago, Paul john said:

You seem to have come to your own conclusion . So i guess you wont be buying a Rav4 and joining the club

I retain some hope Toyota will make a software update to fine tune their early release models. The cost of such is one I'd be happy to pay for club entry. RAV4 hybrids look to be great vehicles in general. Good chance I'll still get one either which way.

[Paul john]

9 minutes ago, GoneFishin247 said:

I retain some hope Toyota will make a software update to fine tune their early release models. The cost of such is one I'd be happy to pay for club entry. RAV4 hybrids look to be great vehicles in general. Good chance I'll still get one either which way.

No chance

[FROSTYBALLS]

26 minutes ago, GoneFishin247 said:

I retain some hope Toyota will make a software update to fine tune their early release models. The cost of such is one I'd be happy to pay for club entry. RAV4 hybrids look to be great vehicles in general. Good chance I'll still get one either which way.

If you read the first post of this topic, you will see that legislation required all new hybrid and electric cars to have AVAS from July 2021 - 3 years ago. So current models aren't early release at all.

There is no fine tuning to be done. The system fitted meets the requirements of the legislation. 

Other manufacturers of hybrid and electric cars also have to meet this legislation. 

[GoneFishin247]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

If you read the first post of this topic, you will see that legislation required all new hybrid and electric cars to have AVAS from July 2021 - 3 years ago. So current models aren't early release at all.

There is no fine tuning to be done. The system fitted meets the requirements of the legislation. 

Other manufacturers of hybrid and electric cars also have to meet this legislation. 

As detailed already, early model, such as 2019, current gen RAV4's have a differing implementation to the latest years such as 2023. All of them meet the legislation but the later models do so in a more pleasant and user friendly way. Other Toyota models have changed their tone types and volumes as well, again all meeting the legislation just in different ways. So there has been some fine tuning. Technically that fine tuning could be applied retrospectively via software updates.

The legislation gives dB readings to work within, 2019 RAV4's go louder in reverse than they need to and they appear to have subsequently lowered the volume.

The legislation does not force the forward made noise to stay on when coming to a stop in stop start traffic. 2019 RAV4's do just that. 2023 models do not.

Although you stated otherwise in an earlier post the legislation permits the use of a temporary disablement of AVAS. BMW have this option built in to their multimedia. Perhaps Toyota will fine tune this aspect in the future.

So yes, fine tuning has already occurred and there is scope for more.

[FROSTYBALLS]

2019 Rav4's weren't required to comply with AVAS legislation, as their Type Approval was prior to July 2019. 

[GoneFishin247]

7 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

2019 Rav4's weren't required to comply with AVAS legislation, as their Type Approval was prior to July 2019. 

That's a moot point really. It's just more irksome they chose to comply with something they didn't need to and in a louder, more shrill and prolonged way than would be required anyway. Then continued that poor approach in subsequent model years up until 2023 when they vastly improved things.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Believe what you want.

[forkingabout]

FWIW I wish the sound was louder as pedestrians ( mainly the younger variety ) ignore it anyway.

[Parts-King]

The third world problems of a noise that switches off at 14 MPH 🙄

[GoneFishin247]

1 hour ago, Parts-King said:

The third world problems of a noise that switches off at 14 MPH 🙄

If you lived somewhere upwards of thirty vehicles manoeuvred at way less than those speeds, all day, every day, you may be less flippant.

[Parts-King]

So because you don't like the sound others with impaired hearing and vision have to toe your line? Marvellous! 

[GoneFishin247]

Well, I'm far from alone in the views I've expressed. And it's not about towing the line but rather proportion, what's effective and reasonable to tackle one issue without becoming the source of another larger issue.

How many people with impairments will be negatively effected by a better implementation of AVAS. A more refined one which achieves it's purpose without causing unnecessary disturbance. None. In fact it will be safer because folk will be less likely to tamper with the systems.

Obviously Toyota agree because refining AVAS is what they've been doing. All I've said is it would be good if they made those refinements available retrospectively via software updates. They should also include a way to temporarily disable the system as UK legislation sensibly permits.

By the way, these systems don't switch off at 14mph. Presumably because Toyota feared a future mandate for them to be active up to 30kph they catered for it from the get go by keeping them on until just over 19mph. That means in towns and start stop traffic, pretty much all the time. Including, in early implementations, while stationary.

[Paul john]

1 hour ago, GoneFishin247 said:

Well, I'm far from alone in the views I've expressed. And it's not about towing the line but rather proportion, what's effective and reasonable to tackle one issue without becoming the source of another larger issue.

How many people with impairments will be negatively effected by a better implementation of AVAS. A more refined one which achieves it's purpose without causing unnecessary disturbance. None. In fact it will be safer because folk will be less likely to tamper with the systems.

Obviously Toyota agree because refining AVAS is what they've been doing. All I've said is it would be good if they made those refinements available retrospectively via software updates. They should also include a way to temporarily disable the system as UK legislation sensibly permits.

By the way, these systems don't switch off at 14mph. Presumably because Toyota feared a future mandate for them to be active up to 30kph they catered for it from the get go by keeping them on until just over 19mph. That means in towns and start stop traffic, pretty much all the time. Including, in early implementations, while stationary.

just curious have you driven a vehicle with AVAS or is rant just created by knowledge you have “researched” ?

Does turn off at 14mph 

Does turn off when ICE is on

Not on whilst stationary (my vehicle type was one of the first to have AVAS)

[Paul john]

8 hours ago, Parts-King said:

So because you don't like the sound others with impaired hearing and vision have to toe your line? Marvellous! 

You don't have to be audially impared for this to be effective.

it is also useful in supermarket car parks where people are distracted and not paying attention. 

[GoneFishin247]

52 minutes ago, Paul john said:

just curious have you driven a vehicle with AVAS or is rant just created by knowledge you have “researched” ?

Does turn off at 14mph 

Does turn off when ICE is on

Not on whilst stationary (my vehicle type was one of the first to have AVAS)

Yes I have driven RAV4 2019. 

No it does not stop making the AVAS noise at 14mph.

No it does not cut the noise when stationary unless applying park or neutral which you're not going to do every time in start stop traffic.

I never said it didn't turn off when ICE is on. People don't want and shouldn't have to try and nudge ICE on to quiet the needlessly obnoxious disturbance of early AVAS.

[GoneFishin247]

11 minutes ago, Paul john said:

You don't have to be audially impared for this to be effective.

it is also useful in supermarket car parks where people are distracted and not paying attention. 

Correct. However a balance needs to be struck between useful, safe and loud to the point of damaging mental health on mass.

Take a drive locally and whenever you see a row of houses next to a set of lights with a permanent queue of cars ask whether 100+ cars there daily, making spaceship and choir sounds at 70dB+ is going to be good for the residents' mental wellbeing. Including those who may be blind and have extra sensitive hearing, as one example.

[Paul john]

35 minutes ago, GoneFishin247 said:

Yes I have driven RAV4 2019.

No it does not stop making the AVAS noise at 14mph.

No it does not cut the noise when stationary unless applying park or neutral which you're not going to do every time in start stop traffic.

I never said it didn't turn off when ICE is on. People don't want and shouldn't have to try and nudge ICE on to quiet the needlessly obnoxious disturbance of early AVAS.

How do you know i have not driven a RAV4 of any generation?

oh and for clarification 14mph as discussed by me here is GPS speed not speedometer speed as that can vary model by model and country by country depending on wheel / tyre configuration…