Engine Rattle When Starting From Cold (See Video)

[hambleton1]

Hi All,

My 2009 1.33L Yaris has started to make a noise when starting from cold (see video attached). This only happens after it's been left for a few hours, i've done an oil and filter change with genuine parts and it has made no difference. Also it usually lasts a second or two longer than what i've recorded in the video, maybe it's better now because of the warm weather. What do you think could be causing it?

Ross.

[Mooly]

It sounds for all the world like hydraulic tappets that take a moment to fill with oil and pressurise... does the 1.33L have hydraulic lifters? One source does say it does:

Quote

There are hydraulic lash adjusters and roller rockers in the valvetrain mechanism. "Indian" motors have old-style adjusting tappets.

1NR-FE

[hambleton1]

5 minutes ago, Mooly said:

It sounds for all the world like hydraulic tappets that take a moment to fill with oil and pressurise... does the 1.33L have hydraulic lifters? One source does say it does:

1NR-FE

If that's the case, would replacing them fix this issue? Why would they start to fail to begin with, and what happens if I do nothing?

[Mooly]

I wouldn't like to advise on that tbh as there can be other reasons other than the lifters. It was always said many years ago that hydraulic tappets can see the oil drain from them over time and so be initially noisy at start up, particularly if the car has stood a fair while... and in that case no cause for concern.

One thought, and I don't know if this applies here is the old question of non original oil filters and non return valves that stop oil draining back to the sump. The 1.33L as far as I know uses a replaceable element rather than a traditional spin on cartridge that would have such a valve fitted.

 

[hambleton1]

1 minute ago, Mooly said:

I wouldn't like to advise on that tbh as there can be other reasons other than the lifters. It was always said many years ago that hydraulic tappets can see the oil drain from them over time and so be initially noisy at start up, particularly if the car has stood a fair while... and in that case no cause for concern.

One thought, and I don't know if this applies here is the old question of non original oil filters and non return valves that stop oil draining back to the sump. The 1.33L as far as I know uses a replaceable element rather than a traditional spin on cartridge that would have such a valve fitted.

 

I'm leaning more towards it being the lifters, because as well as the noise on startup the engine ticks when idling.

[Mooly]

Modern fuel injectors 'tick' as each one fires and that can sound quite loud at idle but its a different sort of noise to valve train problems. 

[scannerman]

if you notice the oil pressure light stays on for a second or so as the car starts, it goes out as the rattle stops. I had this but it stayed on for longer.

I got some oil flushing fluid,(engine flush), added it to the oil, ran the car for about 15 minutes, then drained and replaced the oil and filter. problem gone.

Oil pressure light goes out immediately when started with no noises. Old sludgy oil can block oil ways inside the engine.

[hambleton1]

1 hour ago, scannerman said:

if you notice the oil pressure light stays on for a second or so as the car starts, it goes out as the rattle stops. I had this but it stayed on for longer.

I got some oil flushing fluid,(engine flush), added it to the oil, ran the car for about 15 minutes, then drained and replaced the oil and filter. problem gone.

Oil pressure light goes out immediately when started with no noises. Old sludgy oil can block oil ways inside the engine.

I've tried engine flush, new oil and filter but it didn't make a difference.

[mrpj]

On 7/10/2019 at 8:44 PM, Mooly said:

One thought, and I don't know if this applies here is the old question of non original oil filters and non return valves that stop oil draining back to the sump. The 1.33L as far as I know uses a replaceable element rather than a traditional spin on cartridge that would have such a valve fitted.

That would surely depend on the location of the filter and housing. Top or high up on the engine, then yes. The oil would drain back to the sump if there wasn't a n/r type v/v fitted.

The, i.e. my, 1.33 does indeed have a replaceable "paper" element oil filter at just about the same level as the sump. The oil doesn't drain back to the sump, the element housing remains full of oil. In fact new filter elements, I can only comment on genuine, have a plastic housing drain tube to use - if desired - prior to unscrewing the housing.

[hambleton1]

Could the timing chain be at fault?

[furtula]

Doubt it, chains are made to last as long as the car, and there are no checks involved in owners manual regarding the chain.

Regular oil changes is how you keep your chain in good working order.

[hambleton1]

1 minute ago, furtula said:

Doubt it, chains are made to last as long as the car, and there are no checks involved in owners manual regarding the chain.

Regular oil changes is how you keep your chain in good working order.

What do you think is most likely to be the cause?

[furtula]

Oil seeping down to the sump and top of the engine not being properly lubricated until restarted and the oil is circulated around.

 Maybe try a bit heavier oil if it annoys you that much, but i don't know how much this will help and it might go away with colder weather.

If you check a bit, a lot of cars have this issue, but if the sound goes away after few seconds, i would not worry about it.

 

[hambleton1]

9 minutes ago, furtula said:

Oil seeping down to the sump and top of the engine not being properly lubricated until restarted and the oil is circulated around.

 Maybe try a bit heavier oil if it annoys you that much, but i don't know how much this will help and it might go away with colder weather.

If you check a bit, a lot of cars have this issue, but if the sound goes away after few seconds, i would not worry about it.

 

But what has changed for it to start making this noise? Some component must be on the way out.

[bathtub tom]

I had an Almera before my current Yaris, It had a sump capacity of 2.7L and a cam chain. I made sure the engine oil was changed every 10K/year. I treat the Yaris the same.

Does the OP know the service history?

[furtula]

9 hours ago, hambleton1 said:

But what has changed for it to start making this noise? Some component must be on the way out.

Have you started using different oil for service,or brand of filter?

If you check the web for similar problems, you will find loads of them, some people tried to fix it spending bunch of money only to return in a week, or a month, some just live with it.

Considering the car age, personally i would just live with it, i doubt any long term harm will come to the engine if the issue goes away in a second or two. As said before, maybe try using heavier oil.

As for the chain tensioner, it should be spring loaded, not hydraulic, so should not be affected by the oil pressure.

[Gerg]

I think you may well be correct about the valve lifters being the likely cause.

In your video the odometer shows 40,000 miles covered.  Does this means the car has been doing plenty of short journeys?

If so, this can lead to the rocker cover/camshaft/tappet area getting a bit crudded-up as the engine and its oil doesn't get properly up to temperature.  And running the engine at normal temperature certainly helps in keeping the engine insides clean, the rocker cover is especially prone to running cold and getting condensation inside etc.

This engine has hydraulic tappets, they would normally 'pump up' upon engine start up, as you know.  The holes that allow the oil to enter the tappet (and thence adjust) are quite small and may be slightly obstructed by deposits, perhaps.  In which case they would take longer to settle to their correct level, hence the noise?

Whilst the badly adjusted tappet(s) sound a bit rough, it's best to remember the old confucian wisdom 'a loose tappet is a happy tappet', especially if it's just at start-up, anyway.

As a suggestion, you could try using another engine flush (different brand? Wynns do one specifically for noisy lifters, for example), or if you want you could replace the hydraulic lifters themselves (aggravation/cost alert!), but just because they are noisy at start-up doesn't necessarily indicate impending failure - your car could go for years or more like this.  I would leave it as it is.

For more insight into the camchain (if you haven't googled it enough already) you could watch bits of these two Youtube clips - just dive in randomly, no need to watch the whole lot.  Top marks to this bloke for videoing this, even if he is a bit heavy on the silicone sealant!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcQSwaxDZI

 

[Mooly]

13 hours ago, hambleton1 said:

Could the timing chain be at fault?

Finally found the old thread I kept think back to although I still don't think your problem is chain related:

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/186757-timing-chain-noise-comming-back-after-replacement/

[Mooly]

And the original:

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/181587-useless-dealership/#comments

[hambleton1]

8 hours ago, Gerg said:

I think you may well be correct about the valve lifters being the likely cause.

In your video the odometer shows 40,000 miles covered.  Does this means the car has been doing plenty of short journeys?

If so, this can lead to the rocker cover/camshaft/tappet area getting a bit crudded-up as the engine and its oil doesn't get properly up to temperature.  And running the engine at normal temperature certainly helps in keeping the engine insides clean, the rocker cover is especially prone to running cold and getting condensation inside etc.

This engine has hydraulic tappets, they would normally 'pump up' upon engine start up, as you know.  The holes that allow the oil to enter the tappet (and thence adjust) are quite small and may be slightly obstructed by deposits, perhaps.  In which case they would take longer to settle to their correct level, hence the noise?

Whilst the badly adjusted tappet(s) sound a bit rough, it's best to remember the old confucian wisdom 'a loose tappet is a happy tappet', especially if it's just at start-up, anyway.

As a suggestion, you could try using another engine flush (different brand? Wynns do one specifically for noisy lifters, for example), or if you want you could replace the hydraulic lifters themselves (aggravation/cost alert!), but just because they are noisy at start-up doesn't necessarily indicate impending failure - your car could go for years or more like this.  I would leave it as it is.

For more insight into the camchain (if you haven't googled it enough already) you could watch bits of these two Youtube clips - just dive in randomly, no need to watch the whole lot.  Top marks to this bloke for videoing this, even if he is a bit heavy on the silicone sealant!

 

Thank you for that, the car had done 98,000 miles. The odometer is on a trip setting hence the 4,000 mile reading.

Something else that happens which may give you more information is that when driving, particularly under 2500rpm there is a metallic rattly sort of noise which is very evident without the radio on. When I depress the clutch pedal it totally stops. It also can't be heard when idling. 

You mentioned the rocker cover, the gasket on mine has failed and has caused a slight oil leak. Would a bad gasket exacerbate the problem?

[scannerman]

If the noise goes when you push the clutch peddle I would serious suspect the clutch thrush bearing or pressure plate. If it's on its original clutch, 90K is within its possible end of life. When the car is idling, the flywheel is rotating relatively slowly as will be the clutch assembly, so if this is where your problem is, the noise will be less. In general the clutch is more likely to have problems at 90K than the engine.

Take it back to the dealer and tell them about the noise going when pushing the clutch pedal, if they don't investigate the clutch they shouldn't be allowed to own spanners.

[xxjunaiddadonxx]

On 7/16/2019 at 5:28 PM, hambleton1 said:

Thank you for that, the car had done 98,000 miles. The odometer is on a trip setting hence the 4,000 mile reading.

Something else that happens which may give you more information is that when driving, particularly under 2500rpm there is a metallic rattly sort of noise which is very evident without the radio on. When I depress the clutch pedal it totally stops. It also can't be heard when idling. 

You mentioned the rocker cover, the gasket on mine has failed and has caused a slight oil leak. Would a bad gasket exacerbate the problem?

Hi, I have the exact same noise. I have seen the video you linked with the engine startup rattle. Were you able to find the solution? Id hate to spend on things that wont fix the issue. 

[TonyHSD]

40 minutes ago, xxjunaiddadonxx said:

Hi, I have the exact same noise. I have seen the video you linked with the engine startup rattle. Were you able to find the solution? Id hate to spend on things that wont fix the issue. 

Very likely to be a timing chain tensioner., or vvti sprocket. Depending on engine, miles, history etc. You will need to start from there. First thing is to remove valve cover and inspect the timing chain tension when crankshaft is at 10° , if you a familiar with that matter if not better find a trusted mechanic and ask for opinion and to check for you. If not sure don’t swap or change parts to find the problem. Vvti solenoid also can cause similar rattling noises.