Newbie MMT question

[Necro]

I bought a 2010 MMT today with no experience of them or indeed any kind of automatic. The guy I bought it off (private sale) said to park it in N and start it in N and moving the gear stick while the car is off will destroy the gearbox. Having read the manual I now know to either park it in E or R, but it will only start in N. Will moving the stick to N without the car being on damage the gearbox, as he said? Is there something obvious I’m missing here?

[Mike169]

Hi Claire.

How do I put this?

Many people think the MMT gearbox is probably the worst gearbox Toyota have ever made.

My personal advise is part exchange it for another Toyota with either a manual or a fully automatic gearbox and suffer the financial loss.

To get it repaired you are looking at over £2k and then there is no g'tee it will be OK.

Sorry hun my advise would be to get rid of the car and if you get another Toyota that has not got a MMT gearbox fitted or a different make altogether.

Sorry mate, that's the best advise I can give.

The fact you bought it privately I am unsure where the legal side of things are.

I wish you well, Mike.

[sproutdreamer]

It is correct that you can only start the engine when the gear is in park. You can only put it into gear reverse or forward with your foot on the brake. It does not sound that anything is wrong just that you are unclear about how it works? The previous owner is correct that you MUST not put the car into park until the car has stopped otherwise damage will be caused.

[Necro]

5 minutes ago, sproutdreamer said:

It is correct that you can only start the engine when the gear is in park. You can only put it into gear reverse or forward with your foot on the brake. It does not sound that anything is wrong just that you are unclear about how it works? The previous owner is correct that you MUST not put the car into park until the car has stopped otherwise damage will be caused.

Yes I think I’m unclear how to use it. If for example I park on the downhill slope in reverse gear and turn off the car, how do I then get it back to N to restart? Can I shift the gear stick without the car being on and if I can’t how else can I do it?

[PeteB]

Just to be clear, there is no P (Park) position on the Yaris (or Aygo) MMT selector.  It will only start in N, but the manual recommends leaving it in R or E (for Easy - same as D[rive] in a normal auto) when parking on a slope - use the one that would go uphill - so if facing uphill use E, facing downhill use R - this is to safely support the handbrake as there is no Park function.  The picture below shows the left hand drive version, on a right hand drive the - M + manual positions would be closest to the driver's knee.

The only way to get to N from E or R is to turn the ignition on, foot on brake, and move the lever.  Never caused any problems on our 2 cars with MMT, nor on that of a friend's wife who has the other 2008 Aygo.

Many people do criticise this transmission, but also many on various Aygo and Yaris sites claim to love it.  Two people I know who have them (one a 2008 Aygo, the other a 2011 Yaris 1.33 that was mine for the first year) are in the love it category.  The Yaris, now 8 years old and owned by my ex-partner has done nearly 40,000 miles (including the 17,000 I did in the year I had it) and is still running just fine.  Before that she had a 2008 Aygo MMT for 4 years and 38,000 miles, again never put a foot wrong (a different person to the one mentioned above)

They give some of the benefits of automatic in that there's no clutch pedal and you can leave it to manage things on it's own (E position), and the advantages are that it's cheaper to buy when new than a normal auto and tends to give the same or slightly better mpg than the manual.  If the driver wishes, the selector can me moved to M (Manual) and use the + to change up a gear or - to change down (the car ignores you if the engine won't support that gear at the current speed).  Some models also have paddles behind the steering wheel (marked + or -) that you can pull to change gear.  I don't think either of these ladies have ever used the manual change, and I hardly ever used it myself when I had the Yaris.

Yes, they can be expensive to repair if they go wrong, but so can any transmission, especially a conventional auto.  Certain amount of luck and how it's been looked after.

[mrpj]

Pete has already said this but a copy and paste off t'internet

"Parking: Unlike an automatic car, the P gear is absent in a MMT car. The car should be parked in the following fashion. In an up-sloping incline, put the gear to M1, or E, apply handbrake, and switch off the engine. In a down-sloping incline, put the gear to R, apply handbrake, and switch off the engine. On level ground, put the gear to R, apply handbrake, and switch off the engine. R or E/M1 substitute the P function in a full automatic. "

Yes, as he also says, footbrake applied and select gear desired. Footbrake also, if memory serves, to start.

I've owned one, Claire, a 2010 car too. I have to agree with Mike this has to be the worse transmission I've ever driven, or tried to drive. Toyota realised their error and used a CVT with the Mk 3 Yaris. If you can afford to "trade up" a year then do so. I took a financial hit with the one I had, it was that bad. A shame really because it was an excellent car otherwise. Added to the fact it is now 9 years old and could well be requiring attention in the not too distant future. That will be potentially very expensive.

[Necro]

Unfortunately I can’t take the hit to trade up. I’ve had to borrow to buy this one as I don’t work due to health issues. It was get some sort of automatic or give up driving altogether. On the plus side I won’t be putting an awful lot of miles on it so hopefully it will behave.

[Gerg]

I have driven only a few cars with MMT transmission, and none for very long, just as courtesy cars basically.

They are not unique Toyota design, other makes of small cars were fitted with a similar design, e.g. Vauxhall (Opel).

If you are using this car as transport, rather than a car to enjoy the dynamics of (!), then this isn't necessarily a bad choice, all the more so if you aren't doing many miles.  And the (lower?) secondhand price you paid may reflect the fact that the gearbox's unusual means of operation do not appeal to everyone.

I would expect the clutch plate to be an item that can wear quickly in this type of gearbox if you are a 'spirited' driver, but that doesn't sound like you?

Does anyone on here have experience of what driving styles can cause excessive wear and are best avoided? 

e.g. What to do with the selector when at red traffic lights? 

[PeteB]

1 hour ago, mrpj said:

...Footbrake also, if memory serves, to start...

Your memory is correct.

[PeteB]

Like I said, there is divided opinion about whether the MMT system is 'nice' to use, so get used to it and make your own mind up.

I was very happy with my Yaris during it's first year, and had I not got the chance to buy a 3rd generation Prius Hybrid for a very good price I would have kept it much longer, but in the event I sold it cheap to my Ex who remains delighted with it.  I used to drive her Aygo MMT a fair bit and enjoyed that too.

The MMT system is still used in the current Aygo, and I requested one as a loan car a year or two back while mine was being serviced, and found they had made the gear changes slightly smoother since the Mk 1 Aygo.  The system certainly works better in the Yaris though, as the Aygo is lighter and less able to soak up the odd jerky change.

My friend's wife bought her 2008 model about 4 years ago, not sure what mileage, but has been trouble free ever since.

One thing, it might be worth checking with a dealer whether the rear window recall has been done - if not, they will do it free of charge, to prevent a very small risk of the rear windows' bonding failing and them falling out.  It was recently done on my friend's wife's car and personally, I find it reassuring that Toyota is prepared to do preventative work like this on an 11 year old car. 

Otherwise, if you or someone you know is ok with web sites, you can sign you to MyToyota and see a service history for your car which should tell you if it's been done.

[PeteB]

10 hours ago, Gerg said:

...Does anyone on here have experience of what driving styles can cause excessive wear and are best avoided? 

e.g. What to do with the selector when at red traffic lights? 

Sorry, missed the bottom line on my phone - 

For those used to Toyota Hybrids (like Germ) you might expect the MMT cars to be no more clever with the handbrake than the Hybrids, but actually while the handbrake is applied, the MMT keeps the clutch disengaged (or open) when in E, M or R.  There is no harm leaving the car in E, M or R for a minute or so while the hand brake is on, for example at traffic lights or brief traffic stops, but any longer it's best to select N with the handbrake applied.

Pressing the brake pedal firmly to hold the car for a minute or so seems to disengage the clutch too, but again, more than this best to use N+handbrake.

The manual warns against holding the car on the throttle while in gear on an incline as this will cause the clutch to get hot, and if it gets too hot, the car will throw a wobbly, display one or more warning lights (any maybe make some sounds) and prevent gear selection for several minutes, perhaps even up to 20.  This could be inconvenient to say the least, but you'd have to be very hard on the MMT to provoke this, and I've never experienced it.

Creeping slowly in traffic will possibly wear the clutch a little but no more so than a conventional manual.  

[mrpj]

I hardly experienced the "jerky" gear change that many complain about. I personally think it's a matter of getting used to this transmission e.g. trying to predict when the gearchange is  going to happen and adjusting the revs. just like with a "conventional" manual. Also it is possible to force a change up(sometimes)by easing off the accel. pedal.

My biggest complaints were - The stupidity of the control module, e.g. changing up a gear when ascending a hill when a lower gear was needed, not changing up from first when pulling away, this caused more than one trouser change moment at roundabouts/junctions! When that happened and selecting "M" the gear wouldn't change up even then. I ended up driving in "M" mode all the time which sort of defeats the object.

The concept is good but the application is dire. It was a futile attempt to achieve a lower emission band and a better than the fully manual consumption figures, in my opinion.