Yaris hybrid as a motorhome towcar?

[Lels]

Hi, have had a quick search, but couldn't see the answer to my query. 

We have a 2009 yaris at the moment, but, want to get a hybrid in the next couple of years. This hinges on whether or not we would be able to fit a fully braked A frame to tow it behind our motorhome? Does anyone know if it is possible to do this with the hybrid please 🤔

[stevecrvn]

Lesley . Unless the front wheels are raised You will damage the gearbox / Hybrid system . This what what it says in the handbook

When towing the vehicle

If the vehicle is towed with the front wheels contacting the ground, the drivetrain and related parts may be damaged or electricity generated by the operation of the motor may cause a fire to occur depending on the nature of the damage or malfunction.

If a tow truck is not available in an emergency, your vehicle may be temporarily towed using a cable or chain secured to the emergency towing eyelet. This should only be attempted on hard surfaced roads
for short distances at low speeds.

Hope this helps

 

Steve
.

[Lels]

1 hour ago, stevecrvn said:

Lesley . Unless the front wheels are raised You will damage the gearbox / Hybrid system . This what what it says in the handbook

When towing the vehicle

If the vehicle is towed with the front
wheels contacting the ground, the drivetrain
and related parts may be damaged
or electricity generated by the operation
of the motor may cause a fire to occur
depending on the nature of the damage
or malfunction.

If a tow truck is not available in an emergency, your vehicle may be
temporarily towed using a cable or chain secured to the emergency
towing eyelet. This should only be attempted on hard surfaced roads
for short distances at low speeds.

 

Hope this helps

 

Steve
.

Steve, thank you. 

Helps tremendously, looks like we will keep our old girl a bit longer 

[flash22]

What about using a braked tow dolly ?

[TonyHSD]

As long as driving wheels are of the ground and stationary no problems, but hybrid or EV car should never be towed, once the car is of “Ready” mode automatically goes into P and any movement will damaged the transmission. 

[Lels]

25 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

As long as driving wheels are of the ground and stationary no problems, but hybrid or EV car should never be towed, once the car is of “Ready” mode automatically goes into P and any movement will damaged the transmission. 

Thank you 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Moved to the Yaris club.

[Mick F]

Can you not press the shift lock button and move the gearshift to N?  You can do that without starting the system.

In Neutral, the car is free to move without turning anything ................. is it not?

In Neutral, the car just freewheels ......... yes?

Mick.

 

[TonyHSD]

I am not sure how Yaris is but in Prius and Auris hybrid there is no direct connection with cables between gear selector and transmission, it’s all electronic, no power no gear change. You can try with yours if you have Yaris hybrid, despite looks same as standard auto I think may be electronic like other hybrids. 

Regards 

[Lels]

Thank you for your responses, we are going to keep my old Yaris and have an A frame fitted to her

[Mick F]

11 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

I am not sure how Yaris is but in Prius and Auris hybrid there is no direct connection with cables between gear selector and transmission, it’s all electronic, no power no gear change. You can try with yours if you have Yaris hybrid, despite looks same as standard auto I think may be electronic like other hybrids. 

Regards 

Yes, the Yaris system is the same as the other Toyota Hybrids.

My thought is though, you can turn on the power to accessory and then press the shift lock, then select neutral.  No power on the system.

If the system is completely electronic, what is neutral for?  According to the manual, it says you can tow the car on all four wheels but says it's only a temporary thing and you mustn't go far ............ but that's what they would say, wouldn't they.

Two excerpts from the handbook.

Quote

If a tow truck is not available in an emergency, your vehicle may be temporarily towed using a cable or chain secured to the emergency towing eyelet. This should only be attempted on hard surfaced roads for short distances at low speeds.

A driver must be in the vehicle to steer and operate the brakes. The vehicle’s wheels, drive train, axles, steering and brakes must be in good condition.

Quote

1.  Set the parking brake.

2.   Vehicles without a smart entry & start system:

3. Turn the power switch to the “ACC” position.

   Vehicles with a smart entry & start system: Turn the power switch to ACCESSORY mode.

4.  Depress the brake pedal.

5.  Pry the cover up with a flathead

   screwdriver or equivalent tool.

   To prevent damage to the cover, wrap the tip of the screwdriver with a rag.

6.   Press the shift lock override button.

7. The shift lever can be shifted while the button is pressed.

[Mick F]

I think i got my quote wrong a bit.

Here's the second part.  You can select neutral.  Surely, in N, there's no connection to the wheels?

Mick.

 

Quote

Set the parking brake.

Vehicles without a smart entry & start system:

Turn the power switch to the “ACC” position.

Vehicles with a smart entry & start system: Turn the power switch accessory mode.

Depress the brake pedal.

Pry the cover up with a flathead screwdriver or equivalent tool.

To prevent damage to the cover, wrap the tip of the screwdriver with a rag.

Press the shift lock override button.

The shift lever can be shifted while the button is pressed.

[Mike J.]

1 hour ago, Mick F said:

You can select neutral.  Surely, in N, there's no connection to the wheels?

From what I have 'read', the traction motor is directly connected to the CVT epicyclic ring gear which is directly connected to the wheels (via the differential).My guess is that going into neutral 'lifts' the parking pawl. D and R connect the Battery to the motor (via inverter and with reference to accelerator, etc.). I suggest watching stuff I posted a while back:

https://youtu.be/dLNDGUISTYM

[Mick F]

Thanks.  Seen it before some time back.

I  suggested that nothing would turn in N.  This is obviously wrong.

However, the MGs may turn but not produce any electricity, very much akin to being in D going down a long long hill and having a full Battery.  The system switches off the power to the Battery and the MGs turn by dint of the car still descending a hill and do nothing.

There is no limit to how fast or how far you can go like that.  I would expect that you can descend the same long long hill in N because in N the power is switched off from charging the Battery.

What is N actually for?  Is it not for use when being towed?  Nothing that I can see in the handbook says anything what N is for.

Mick.

[flash22]

With the wheels turning the diff is turning a chain drive into the gear box, the hybrid is not a standard CVT due to the planetary gear set and the start and charge system, you shouldn't tow any automatic on its drive wheels as the fluid is not under enough pressure to lubricate the gear box correctly irrespective of the power or gear selection, unlike a manual that has its gears in a bath of oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

 

[flash22]

2 hours ago, Mick F said:

Thanks.  Seen it before some time back.

I  suggested that nothing would turn in N.  This is obviously wrong.

However, the MGs may turn but not produce any electricity, very much akin to being in D going down a long long hill and having a full battery.  The system switches off the power to the battery and the MGs turn by dint of the car still descending a hill and do nothing.

There is no limit to how fast or how far you can go like that.  I would expect that you can descend the same long long hill in N because in N the power is switched off from charging the battery.

What is N actually for?  Is it not for use when being towed?  Nothing that I can see in the handbook says anything what N is for.

Mick.

The wiki says it all

Neutral gear (equivalent): Most jurisdictions require automotive transmissions to have a neutral gear that decouples the engine and transmission. The HSD "neutral gear" is achieved by turning the electric motors off. Under this condition, the planetary gear is stationary (if the vehicle wheels are not turning); if the vehicle wheels are turning, the ring gear will rotate, causing the sun gear to rotate as well (the engine inertia will keep the carrier gear stationary unless the speed is high), while MG1 is free to rotate while the batteries do not charge. The owners manual^[22] warns that Neutral gear will eventually drain the Battery, resulting in "unnecessary" engine power to recharge batteries; a discharged Battery will render the vehicle inoperable

[TonyHSD]

What I think is that keeping the car in accessories mode will drain the small 12V Battery and the car won’t be operational after that, and if you turn off accessories mode the transmission automatically will go into P mode so not able to tow. For the oil pressure here it’s not a problem because lubrications in that type transmission is principally same as manual gearbox, same service drain and refill only. Very interesting to read all posts. Thanks   

[flash22]

IIRC the Yaris does have a physical shifter cable, either way I would not tow a Yaris hybrid due to the way HSD operates as it still has a shaft driven fluid pump, its not a standard cvt with a steel belt and pulleys

[Mike J.]

5 hours ago, Mick F said:

What is N actually for?  Is it not for use when being towed?  Nothing that I can see in the handbook says anything what N is for.

I used it when stationary, in a queue (with handbrake on), so that you don't dazzle with brake lights. OK if Battery is not too low and wait not too long, otherwise use park..

[TonyHSD]

Yeah, I do sometimes too, but only when I am sure I will wait more than a minute.  Other time when N is useful is when on MOT ramps and wheel alignment, technicians are moving the car forward a bit by hand. 

[Mick F]

OK guys, thanks for the comments regarding N.

Can you NOT turn the power on, press the shift-lock button, select N, and then push the car?  I envisage experimenting on a level carpark and seeing if the car is push-able like a manual normally engined car would be.  At an idle moment, I may have a go at it.

In a normal manual car, if you shifted to N without the brakes on without the engine running, you could push the car easily on the flat.  Yes, the gearbox input shaft would turn by dint of the clutch still being engaged, but the "system" would still rotate along with the wheels but not the engine.

We see cars behind campervans all the time up and down the motorways.  They whiz along behind the vans at 50 or 60 mph for miles on end with their input shafts and clutches whizzing around for hour after hour.
 

 

Mick.

[Mick F]

I was in Morrisons supermarket earlier and after getting back to the car, I drove over to a large vacant area.  It must be a quiet morning!

Car running, handbrake on, foot on brake, moved shift lever to N, took foot off the brake, dropped the handbrake, and switched the power off.

Opened the door, the beep warning sounded, and I put a foot out and scooted the car along.  No resistance at all and the car was very free to move forwards or backwards.

The steering was terribly heavy to turn as the power was off. The steering lock did not engage.

In that situation and method, I see no reason that a Yaris Hybrid couldn't or shouldn't be towed.

Mick.

[Bomber209]

Hi, the Yaris is a front wheel drive car. Even if you select 'N' the drive wheels will still turn the 'Epicyclic' gear. You have to lift the front wheels off the ground to tow for any distance or above 10mph. Lift front wheels and release the Handbrake and away you go. You can lift the wheels onto a 'Dolly' if required.

[Mick F]

Yes, we know all that.

Tow a normal car, and the clutch and gearbox turn. The input shaft and lay gears also, so that means all the gears turn though without one of the gears being selected for output of course.  In neutral, everything still turns.

What's the difference with a hybrid powered down and in neutral?

That is the question.

Mick.

[Mike J.]

It could also be down to the gearbox oil pump - certain cars need the input shaft turning to power the gearbox oil pump. This maybe the case for the epicyclic gearbox - spin the gears without oil lubrication for a while and you get damage.