Catalytic Converter Thefts

[eskemoiain]

9 hours ago, AndrueC said:

The fob should have a motion sensor and should disable its transmitter if stationary for more than a minute. The transmitter should enable when motion is detected. This is a simple security fix that might also increase battery life. It would have no impact on usability.

This could be done as a deep sleep which can be done. This may not be that reliable if you leave keys hanging with possible vibrations to delay sleep mode. The manual way doesn't actually take that long and it's quite easy when locking the car.

You can actually disable keyless at car level after a period of time. On the obd tool is called holiday mode and operates at default after 3 days.

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, eskemoiain said:

This could be done as a deep sleep which can be done. This may not be that reliable if you leave keys hanging with possible vibrations to delay sleep mode. The manual way doesn't actually take that long and it's quite easy when locking the car.

You can actually disable keyless at car level after a period of time. On the obd tool is called holiday mode and operates at default after 3 days.

I'm not a fan of manual solutions. People forget or just can't be bothered. Of course there's a risk of a failure with an automatic system but motion sensors for electronics are pretty reliable and probably won't make the fob more likely to fail. But Toyota (and a few other manufacturers) need to come up with some kind of improvement. I think it's the result of bad design, either incompetence or lack of care and more should be done to pull them up on it. Maybe force a recall to upgrade existing cars.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, AndrueC said:

Maybe force a recall to upgrade existing cars.

A DVSA recall will only address safety issues, which this isn't.

[AndrueC]

10 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

A DVSA recall will only address safety issues, which this isn't.

Maybe it should be extended. Secure design of electronics and computing needs to be taken more seriously everywhere. I think it should be considered almost as important as physical safety. There's too many companies being allowed to get away with sloppy security practices.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Perhaps it should, but at present we have what we have.

[Heidfirst]

On 10/2/2019 at 9:45 PM, AndrueC said:

* The fob should have a motion sensor and should disable its transmitter if stationary for more than a minute. The transmitter should enable when motion is detected. This is a simple security fix that might also increase battery life. It would have no impact on usability.

looks like they are doing something ...

 

• Anti Theft Relay Prevention

• A vibration sensor will be added to the smart entry system, which is standard on all grades. This will improve theft protection by assisting in preventing relay attacks. How it works: • When the key is not moving or vibrating, such as when it is placed on a table, it does not transmit a signal via radio waves. Therefore, the signal cannot be intercepted and re-translated to the car.

[AndrueC]

25 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

looks like they are doing something ...

 

• Anti Theft Relay Prevention

• A vibration sensor will be added to the smart entry system, which is standard on all grades. This will improve theft protection by assisting in preventing relay attacks. How it works: • When the key is not moving or vibrating, such as when it is placed on a table, it does not transmit a signal via radio waves. Therefore, the signal cannot be intercepted and re-translated to the car.

Hopefully existing owners will be able to upgrade to the new fobs at a discounted price.

Unfortunately without the second part of my solution it still allows someone to sit outside your house and steal the car while you are taking your coat off and hanging it up. It does narrow the window of opportunity though.

[Heidfirst]

On 10/4/2019 at 7:03 PM, AndrueC said:

Unfortunately without the second part of my solution it still allows someone to sit outside your house and steal the car while you are taking your coat off and hanging it up. It does narrow the window of opportunity though.

There is the existing manual disabling of the fob (which we know you dislike),  you can also disable the smart entry system from the head unit (or of course buy a car without the smart system from the start 😛).

[AndrueC]

37 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

There is the existing manual disabling of the fob (which we know you dislike),  you can also disable the smart entry system from the head unit (or of course buy a car without the smart system from the start 😛).

As I've already posted, I'm not at significant risk anyway. The current implementation is fine for me but obviously isn't for most. I'm in a minority keeping my car in a garage overnight and don't imagine there's many people whose office car park is gated either.

As a software developer and keen enthusiast for automation it pains me that so many manufacturers have implemented it so poorly. We had made good strides on reducing car theft and then they release a half baked feature like this. They clearly didn't think it through properly or else chose to pinch pennies instead.

 

[Anthony Sutton]

For those of us who have to park in our forecourt or street, it's not always possible to park the car near a wall. All the thief has to do is to use a jack to raise one side of the car to get underneath and saw each side of the catalytic converter.   I've done some ringing around and discussed with dealer.

Speaking to a local Toyota service department, Catlocs will apparently be coming out soon for the Corollas. Until then, you can have a generic one fitted for about £300 which is attached by a security cable to the underneath of the car: the idea being it will deter a thief,  because it would take longer to saw through the security cable. 

Alarm specialists can fit a Tilt Sensor to the factor fitted alarm for about £400: this won't necessarily invalidate the Toyota electrical warranty unless it can be shown that the installation caused an electrical fault.  I'm hesitating, because at the risk of causing electrical problems, it will only just draw attention to the thief for a few minutes until he/she saws off your Cat.

 

[Heidfirst]

On 10/6/2019 at 3:03 PM, AndrueC said:

The current implementation is fine for me but obviously isn't for most. 

I disagree, the current implementation is fine for most people if they are actually aware of /use it - the problem is that people either don't read their manuals & know that the facilities exist or are too lazy to use them.

[AndrueC]

21 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

I disagree, the current implementation is fine for most people if they are actually aware of /use it - the problem is that people either don't read their manuals & know that the facilities exist or are too lazy to use them.

But people don't know that the facilities exist and I don't think that wishing to use a keyless entry system 'keylessly' is 'being lazy'. The feature is advertised and sold as allowing the user to operate the vehicle without holding their keys whilst implicitly not compromising security. Clearly the system fails. It either requires that the user put in more effort than the manufacturer claims (thus largely negating the feature) or else that the user put up with compromised security. It is clearly inadequate and needs improvement and I contend badly implemented.

[Heidfirst]

8 hours ago, AndrueC said:

But people don't know that the facilities exist and I don't think that wishing to use a keyless entry system 'keylessly' is 'being lazy'.

If they read their manual (after spending £20k +) they would know that the facilities exist. I am not saying that wishing to use a keyless entry system is lazy but if, knowing the facilities exist, they don't use them (just 2 button pushes on the fob iirc after you have locked the door) is.

As I have already linked there is an improvement coming in that the forthcoming fobs will go to sleep when static - this will not cover the walk from the car to the house  & hanging up your coat that you mentioned etc. but the key press sequence will.

[eskemoiain]

53 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

If they read their manual (after spending £20k +) they would know that the facilities exist. I am not saying that wishing to use a keyless entry system is lazy but if, knowing the facilities exist, they don't use them (just 2 button pushes on the fob iirc after you have locked the door) is.

As I have already linked there is an improvement coming in that the forthcoming fobs will go to sleep when static - this will not cover the walk from the car to the house  & hanging up your coat that you mentioned etc. but the key press sequence will.

To be honest, I like the current situation. At home I disable the fob (higher risk of relay theft) when out and about I don't so I can easily get in the car with shopping etc. 

[AndrueC]

2 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

If they read their manual (after spending £20k +) they would know that the facilities exist. I am not saying that wishing to use a keyless entry system is lazy but if, knowing the facilities exist, they don't use them (just 2 button pushes on the fob iirc after you have locked the door) is.

As I have already linked there is an improvement coming in that the forthcoming fobs will go to sleep when static - this will not cover the walk from the car to the house  & hanging up your coat that you mentioned etc. but the key press sequence will.

I think your expectations about what car owners know are not realistic. I'm pretty sure that very few owners read their car manual from front to back. I'm also pretty sure most car owners don't want to know all that stuff. You might consider that lamentable but that's the way it is. Most of us buy a car to get us from A to B and don't want to be bogged down with technical esoterica that don't help in that task. We might look up how a particular feature that we haven't used before works but otherwise we don't care. Telling us to study the manual and memorise everything in it is a cop-out. I have better and far more interesting things to do with my life and I'm pretty sure most vehicle owners would agree.

"(just 2 button pushes on the fob iirc after you have locked the door) is"

Eh? You've just - in effect - said that Toyota's keyless system is fine as long you use the keys. That makes no sense and is a clear admission that the system is flawed. The whole premise of a keyless system is that you can get out of your easy chair, grab your coat, unlock the car, get in the car, drive somewhere, get out, lock the car and walk away all without ever having to touch the keys or even know where they are.

If you have to hold the keys in your hand at any point to adequately operate the vehicle then it's no longer keyless and should not be marketed as such. And if you need to consult the vehicle manual in order to find out how to properly lock your car then something is badly wrong with the vehicle design.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Please return to the topic subject - catalytic converter theft.

[Mike J.]

I have two possible ways to help reduce the problem:

1.  most Toyota cars (post 2012?) have stability control that uses motion sensing - Toyota could reprogram these cars to alarm on tilting.
2.  Toyota should allow 3rd party cats (£200 and not wanted by the perps?) to be fitted without warranty issues - no more 3 month waits for £1000 cats that might be stolen the next day..

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

15 minutes ago, Mike J. said:

Toyota should allow 3rd party cats (£200 and not wanted by the perps?) to be fitted without warranty issues

No manufacturer would agree to this as they have no control over quality, performance, etc, etc.

Japanese manufacturers are especially careful re quality control. We had a new Honda Concerto back in '94. The cars were built by Rover at Longbridge and shipped to Honda Swindon for quality control. Those that passed entered the distribution network, and those that failed were returned to Rover for rectification, and resubmitted to Honda after rectification. 

Honda wouldn't fit any Rover branded parts for warranty claims as they hadn't been QC'd by Honda.

Cannot see Toyota being any different.

[Pj2]

Toyota are useless and are doing nothing but reading of the same script of how to "protect" your car when truth is you cant! Customers have to pay to have the converter replaced then pay for a catlock! Toyota should be fitting them for free! 

[furtula]

I think this is just shifting responsibility on car manufacturers.

Where i live in central EU, cat thefts do not exist for many years now. Police saw the problem, forced the junkyards to have cameras installed and ask for id even for a simple thing like buying an old car Battery and thing disappeared.

Blaming anyone else but the government is just waste of time.

[FROSTYBALLS]

14 minutes ago, Pj2 said:

Customers have to pay to have the converter replaced then pay for a catlock! Toyota should be fitting them for free! 

Why? Toyota aren't responsible for the thefts. Much in the same way that Honda aren't responsible for cat thefts from their cars (Jazz and Accord). The same for Audis which have been affected.

I would suggest that most victims of cat thefts claim on their insurance - so most don't directly pay to replace the cats themselves.

From what I've read Local Authorities aren't enforcing legislation which limits where scrap metal dealers can source scrap metals from, and this provides an outlet for the theives. Plus some of the stolen cats are being shipped abroad.

Down to government to shut off the opportunities for the thieves to get rid of stolen cats.

[Velvet--Glove]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

I would suggest that most victims of cat thefts claim on their insurance - so most don't directly pay to replace the cats themselves.

I'm sure most motorists would pay something towards the cost; most insurers I've dealt with have some sort of compulsory excess on their policies.

In my case it's £50 compulsory plus a £200 voluntary excess. So even with comprehensive insurance if someone swiped my cat I imagine I would be £250 out of pocket and pretty cross about it too.

[FROSTYBALLS]

19 minutes ago, Velvet--Glove said:

I'm sure most motorists would pay something towards the cost; most insurers I've dealt with have some sort of compulsory excess on their policies.

Which is why I said they don't directly pay to replace the cats themselves. A £250 excess is approx a quarter of the replacement cost.

At the end of the day, where there is theft of cars, theft from cars or vandalism, most motorists don't pay the full cost of the repair, relying on their insurance to cover them for the major part of the cost.

[Anthony Sutton]

hope you didn't mind i start a new topic.

So to resume (I think!), Cat Thefts in hybrids are increasing. There's no foolproof way to stop them only to reduce risk.

1-Parking near a wall to restrict access to the undercarriage.

2-Getting a third party  to add a motion-sensor to your alarm (I've been assured this will not affect Warranty, unless it can be demonstrated that the ThirdPartyAlarm caused that particular electrical fault)

3-Arranging fitting by a third party of a Cat Lock

 

if we should fall victim to such an expensive theft, we ought to claim on insurance: however, that does put up your premium.

 

My questions are:  my dealer mentioned that Toyota would be bringing out their own bespoke CatLock. Does anyone know when this might be?  I imagine it will fit better than the generic ones available

Secondly: what do people think of this product?  https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00U0K3Q10/?coliid=I2OCKQ4JKA9XCD&colid=1ZKCJSG947NMR&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it     It's a standalone motion sensor that texts you if your car is lifter or moved. Obviously, it requires on hardwiring and cannot thus invalidate the warranty.

  

 

[Catlover]

Can’t see why you started new thread........ the continuity is now lost, unless others just continue on the previous thread.