Engine Vibration

[Simon_C]

Hi all, I’m hoping someone can give me some advice. 

I’ve recently bought a 2006 1.6 vvt-i Corolla with 135,000 miles on the clock. 
To all intents and purposes it runs like a dream and has been well cared for. 

However, I’m experiencing an issue that when the RPM reach a band around 3100 there’s a very noticeable increase in vibration levels. I’ve mentioned engine vibration but the reality is I have no idea. It happens in any gear so it’s not related to speed and it will stop again just before 3300 is reached. 

The result is that motorway driving is a pleasure in 5th gear travelling at up to 65mph or anything above around 78mph. But anything in between is a bit uncomfortable. 

Can anyone cast any light on what might be the cause? 

[furtula]

Did you buy it from a dealer or private seller?

 

[Simon_C]

I bought it at auction

[Gerg]

There was a problem with the plastic/resin inlet manifold losing some of its internal welding, this caused a vibration at certain revs, a bit like you describe.  But I thought that this had been fixed by the time 2006 models came out.

As far as I understand it only some cars were affected, and it didn't get any worse with use.  There were no chances of bits breaking off and damaging the engine, for instance.

The fix was simply to replace the manifold complete (so take a chance on a manifold at a breakers?).  This problem was a manufacturing defect.  The manifold is quite heavy and a complicated shape internally.  Replacement is straightforward, if it is indeed this, no other parts needed, about an hour or so.

The vibration/noise could be heard when you revved the engine with the bonnet up, although hard to pinpoint, understandably.

Or, exhaust heat shield loose (from rusting through a mount/support)?

I'm sure there will be other ideas coming along shortly....

[Simon_C]

Thanks for your detailed reply Gerg, that’s very kind of you.

I don’t get the impression it’s either of those issues. There’s no rattling or knocking or anything that actually sounds loose.

It just sounds and feels “rough” for a brief period until the RPM either drop or increase. I can accelerate through it no problem but it’s at its absolute worst at 70mph in fifth...which is a right pain! 

[oldcodger]

Hi,

To me you sounds like you are describing two different problems... ?

Typically you can get vibration though the steering wheel at around 60 -70 mph when the front wheels are out of balance.

If the vibration is felt more though the seat or your feet, then probably the rear wheels need balancing as well.

Have you inspected the tyres for good equal tread and no bulges felt or seen on the sidewalls, indicating a kerbing or similar.

You say you get the fault between 3100 and 3300 rpm, but how is the vibration felt ?

Is it really more Speed rather than RPM related ?

If its RPM related then you should be able to get the fault in a lower gear, say 4th or even 3rd at 3200rpm, can you do that ?

[Simon_C]

Thanks Oldcodger,

You’ve actually described the problem better than I did!

Yes, the vibrations are felt through the steering wheel, the accelerator pedal and to a lesser degree the seat. It’s not dissimilar to driving over rumble strips but nowhere near as bad. 

This becomes apparent when the rev counter is exactly at the mid point between 3100 and 3200 and then disappears once accelerating beyond the 3300 point or thereabouts. And yes, this is the same for gears 3,4 and 5. So definitely [?] an RPM related issue. 

I have given the tyres a cursory look but not the internal walls. 

[oldcodger]

A bulge in the sidewalls  is obvious, no different to checking the tread.

If its happening in a low gear and the same rpm, then you must be going much slower, so would 'logically' not be wheel balance, though it could still be part of the problem.

Something like a badly worn , loose or damaged engine mount is another possibility, but  perhaps get all four wheels balanced first and then see what its like.

How long since it was MOTed, ie given a good check of the suspension etc

[Simon_C]

Thanks again for your input Oldcodger. It’s very much appreciated. 

Yes, clearly when I’m in 3rd, I’m not travelling that fast at all but the issue is definitely there. I’m guessing it won’t harm to have all the wheels balanced regardless. 

The last MoT was done in July. Judging by the low mileage since it has largely been stationary since. 

I was under the impression that worn, damaged or loose engine mounts would cause obvious vibrations at low revs - even at idle, so I was hoping that wasn’t the issue? 

On the whole, I’d say it has been well maintained. There’s barely an advisory in any of the old MoT’s and it’s been serviced by a Toyota main dealer bang on every 10k miles without fail. I get the impression it has been loved by someone! 

[oldcodger]

Its very hard to say whats actually wrong, but can only suggest a process of elimination, assuming taking it to a garage / Toyota is a last resort ?

Long time since I  had a wheel balanced that was not part of a new tyre fitting, expect its about £10 a wheel these days ?

Engine mounts are not so expensive or difficult to fit, but think you would see the engine wobbling excessively if you watched it ticking over and someone blipped the throttle. ( it will naturally move a bit normally)

If the fault is purely rev related which you say is happening it suggests things like discs, driveshafts etc are ok as they will be running at different speeds when in different gears.

Have you checked everything in the engine bay is secure , like bonnet catches and hinges, Battery, even the front bumper areas, anything loose that could badly vibrate at those engine revs. Same for the back bumper, spare tyre and the exhaust system which you could ask a the garage to check for you, if having the wheels balanced.

Can you get someone in the car with you to take a video of what its like  ?

Assume if you do any high speed  and hard braking thats all good and smooth ?

Also assume that the engine seems to be revving freely, not hint of a misfire at those revs .

When the steering wheel vibrates, is it more of a wobble / slight fast movement from from left to right ?

 

[Simon_C]

Engine mounts are not so expensive or difficult to fit, but think you would see the engine wobbling excessively if you watched it ticking over and someone blipped the throttle. ( it will naturally move a bit normally)

There doesn’t seem to be excessive movement from what I can tell. I’m no expert though, that’s for sure. 

If the fault is purely rev related which you say is happening it suggests things like discs, driveshafts etc are ok as they will be running at different speeds when in different gears.

I’m sure it’s purely rev related. The vibration starts at exactly the same rev count in all gears, even in second gear.  

Have you checked everything in the engine bay is secure , like bonnet catches and hinges, Battery, even the front bumper areas, anything loose that could badly vibrate at those engine revs. Same for the back bumper, spare tyre and the exhaust system which you could ask a the garage to check for you, if having the wheels balanced.

No, I haven’t checked these things but I can tell this isn’t the problem. It’s really not a rattling issue, it doesn’t sound remotely like anything is loose. It’s a deep vibration, I can even feel it through the floor pan. The engine appears to change tone slightly although I could be imagining that and it could just be cabin noise. It reminds me very much of when I rode motorbikes, there would be a small band of revs within which the ride would be decidedly rougher. Slightly lower or slightly higher and the ride would be smooth, I think people called it the power band or something like that? 

Can you get someone in the car with you to take a video of what its like  ?

I’ll try! 

Assume if you do any high speed  and hard braking thats all good and smooth ?

I’m not much of a speedster but yes, the car drives like new outside that rpm band. It accelerates quietly and smoothly and brakes perfectly. It’s like driving a new car.

 Also assume that the engine seems to be revving freely, not hint of a misfire at those revs .

There is a slight issue with the revs although I hadn’t considered it to be linked. If I’m travelling in say third or fourth and I were to floor the accelerator, say for example in an overtaking situation - rather than the revs shoot up immediately, there’s actually a bit of lag and even a slight drop off before they pick up again. 

When the steering wheel vibrates, is it more of a wobble / slight fast movement from from left to right ?

No, definitely no wobbling at all and no lateral movement at all. Purely vibrations. As I said, it feels similar to when you drive over rumble strips but not as harsh. 

Thanks for all your input Oldcodger. 👍 Mighty fine of you. 

[oldcodger]

Hi,

Can only go on what you say and my own experiences, but think you may have located the fault.

12 hours ago, Simon_C said:

There is a slight issue with the revs although I hadn’t considered it to be linked. If I’m travelling in say third or fourth and I were to floor the accelerator, say for example in an overtaking situation - rather than the revs shoot up immediately, there’s actually a bit of lag and even a slight drop off before they pick up again. 

I have had that problem, it when the clutch is Slipping, you apply power, the clutch cannot hold that power so slips, your speed stays the same but the revs rise.

So it may be that apart from just a simple slipping clutch, like just a worn clutch friction plate,  there is  be something  else wrong with the whole clutch  assembly /flywheel thats giving you the rev related vibration.

If you google 'slipping clutch'  you will see its often associated with some vibration,

If it is  Revs related then it really can only be within the engine block /clutch, if not the clutch , then an engine diagnostic tune would seem the best way to identify the problem.

[Gerg]

17 hours ago, Simon_C said:

There’s no rattling or knocking or anything that actually sounds loose

It's been a long time since I heard the problem that I described.  The rev. range that the sound was apparent was a bit broader than you mention in your fault description, if I remember correctly.  The noise was not what you might expect of a manifold - it was like two large pieces of hard plastic being bashed together very, very quickly - quite harsh.  A classic resonant frequency effect, only at certain revs.

But, it wasn't a noise that my wife picked up on.  Conversely, I thought it ruined the drive!  It wasn't until I heard the car with a different manifold that I really believed it was the cause!

During an idle moment, perhaps it might be worth putting a narrow length of wood against the manifold and the other end against your ear (i.e. a stethoscope-type-arrangement) whilst the engine is revved, to see if you can hear the noise increase at the described rpm?  That way it could be easily and cheaply ruled out.

Usual warnings about staying well away from the moving alternator drive belt apply here, and no loose clothes, scarves, ties, long hair or excessively loose jewellery left unsecured......  so for safety's sake wear a tie-pin and your hair in a bun. 

:-)

[oldcodger]

4 minutes ago, Gerg said:

It's been a long time since I heard the problem that I described.  The rev. range that the sound was apparent was a bit broader than you mention in your fault description, if I remember correctly.  The noise was not what you might expect of a manifold - it was like two large pieces of hard plastic being bashed together very, very quickly - quite harsh.

But, it wasn't a noise that my wife picked up on.  Conversely, I thought it ruined the drive!  It wasn't until I heard the car with a different manifold that I really believed it was the cause!

During an idle moment, perhaps it might be worth putting a narrow length of wood against the manifold and the other end against your ear (i.e. a stethoscope-type-arrangement) whilst the engine is revved, to see if you can hear the noise increase at the described rpm?  That way it could be easily and cheaply ruled out.

Usual warnings about staying well away from the alternator drive belt apply here!!!

Not something I have experienced, but seem to remember seeing other forum members with older cars having that problem and details of a diy fix by placing some screws into the manifold to secure those baffles...

Do not know if its a long or short term fix, but a Search of this Corolla forum should provide more details and if its a safe thing to do !

[Simon_C]

Thanks again for all your input guys. It’s very kind of you. 
 

I’ve done a few checks and tests. The clutch is definitely slipping. Perhaps it’s because I was looking for it but it was very noticeable today. I’m a bit gutted because before I bought the car I did a hand break test and the car stalled ok. Not now, it doesn’t. It’s also revving merrily in all gears but very slow to pick up speed. 
 

Now then - I’m going to have to back track on the vibration issue. I think. 
 

I took Oldcodger’s advice and lifted the bonnet to look for anything loose. Low and behold the plastic engine cover has three bolts missing and is held on by a single bolt. Now if that was always the issue, I’m now feeling like a bit (a lot) of a fool. Especially after saying it doesn’t sound like anything is loose or rattling. 
 

My concern remains though that it was the vibrations which have loosened the bolts, so a symptom rather than a cause. 
I had the bonnet up a couple of weeks ago and didn’t notice anything but there again I wasn’t looking for it. 
 

I’ve ordered some new ones so I’ll let you know once I’ve sorted. I’m certainly hoping to be embarrassed! 
 

Thanks again both! 

[oldcodger]

1 hour ago, Simon_C said:

T I’m a bit gutted because before I bought the car I did a hand break test and the car stalled ok. Not now, it doesn’t. It’s also revving merrily in all gears but very slow to pick up speed. 
 

You did the right test, and like mine, it would slip when you gave it some real power in 3rd, but still passed the handbrake test.

Assume your clutch bite point is quiet high up and the pedal is quiet a heavy press, though perhaps you will only realise that when the new clutch is fitted.

Shop around for prices, where is a wide variation ,Toyota may still offer their lower price Optifit clutch.

What I would also check is do the garages have the facilities to skim the flywheel if its surface is bad or get an new one quickly. Just that the vibration may be caused by the clutch and the flywheel may have suffered. Some folk will say get a new flywheel with the clutch kit as at 135k miles its bound to be worn.

Had to replace mine at 80k , so yours has done well. 

Would not have thought the engine cover would cause such a feeling, but who knows... think they are more plastic press screws that hold it on..mine are.

[Gerg]

8 minutes ago, oldcodger said:

think they are more plastic press screws that hold it on..mine are.

The older model had 2 press-screw clips (a plug onto a threaded hole in the alloy valve cover) and 2 x 10mm dome-head nuts on the front two positions, if I remember correctly. Perhaps this changed later?

[Simon_C]

I’ve ordered new engine cover fixings from Toyota - the two front positions are definitely 10mm dome nuts. I won’t know about the back two until they arrive. All I have is the two threaded holes in the alloy valve cover to go by. 
 

I’ve just gone for a spin with the engine cover removed completely and it hasn’t made a jot of difference so it’s clear those bolts/ clips came loose as a symptom of the vibrating issue and weren’t the cause. Even the oil filler cap had come off and was lying on top of the engine cover so I’m glad I did open the bonnet. 😮
 

Thanks for the advice on the flywheel etc. I’m getting quotes tomorrow. Any thoughts on whether it’s worth paying extra to have the job done by Toyota rather than my local garage? 

[Simon_C]

7 hours ago, Gerg said:

no loose clothes, scarves, ties, long hair or excessively loose jewellery left unsecured......  so for safety's sake wear a tie-pin and your hair in a bun. 

🙂

🤣🤣🤣

[oldcodger]

19 minutes ago, Simon_C said:

. I’m getting quotes tomorrow. Any thoughts on whether it’s worth paying extra to have the job done by Toyota rather than my local garage? 

If you are happy with your regular local garage and their price, would say go with them.

Toyotas standard clutch will be expensive but uses original parts, so they created the more competitive Optifit range/pricing  using the same parts most garages fit; for clutches they often use Luk, Blueprint,Sachs which are all good quality names.

Wondered if you knew about the passenger airbag recall and if its been done ? - they did not stamp the service book when they did mine, but  you can check yours and its mot history here -

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-recall

[Simon_C]

13 hours ago, oldcodger said:

 

Wondered if you knew about the passenger airbag recall and if its been done ? - they did not stamp the service book when they did mine, but  you can check yours and its mot history here -

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-recall

Thank you, and yes I had already checked although I don’t have clarity as to whether the fix has been completed. I’m visiting the dealership today so I’ll find out for sure

 

[DeTomato]

Just going back to basics, if there is a engine noise at specific speed then it tends to be tyre balance as old_codger said or a tyre bulge. It can also be an oval wheel shaped wheel from potholes. It can also be a engine bolt broken or if the drive shafts are out of balance and not tightened up hard. 

[Simon_C]

On 11/2/2019 at 3:23 PM, DeTomato said:

Just going back to basics, if there is a engine noise at specific speed then it tends to be tyre balance as old_codger said or a tyre bulge. It can also be an oval wheel shaped wheel from potholes. It can also be a engine bolt broken or if the drive shafts are out of balance and not tightened up hard. 

It’s not speed related. It’s strictly rpm related. 2nd through to 5th gear in a tight band between 3150 and 3300. Above and below that there’s no issue. 
 

I finally saved up and had the clutch replaced & this hasn’t resolved the vibration issue which is clearly a shame! 

[OCV]

I finally SOLVED this !!!!....... I removed the sepentine belt and checked all pulleys. I had the VVTI checked. I flushed and changed the oil. Then changed it again a week later. I inspected the engine mounts. I cleaned the injectors and nothing. Finally I decided to inspect the exhaust as Toyota dealerships have been saying it's normal and keep blaming this 3000 to 3200 rpm vibration on a design flaw of the exhaust. As luck would have it, I found a damaged exhaust donut gasket. I operated the car at said rpm and verified the exhaust was vibrating and creating all sorts of raucous between 3000 and 3200 rpm. I watched my mechanic replace both the rear and forward donut gaskets and the associated springs and bolts. Car runs like a top now. Vibration is gone altogether!!!