Help needed to diagnose fault please.

[Mettymatty]

Hi,

This is my first post on this forum.😄

My mrs 2010 plate 1.33 vvti Yaris has been poorly for some time now; It burns/loses oil and makes a rattle from cold starting. I do my best to keep the oil topped up but I don't drive it and sometimes the mrs won't check it until the point the oil light will start to flicker on the dash which doesn't help matters.

Earlier today she told me the MIL engine light had come on and my code reader gave a P0016 which is crank/cam sensor related.  I've cleared the fault code and it hasn't come back but I'd like to get the issue solved if possible.

I don't know much about these cars but I've read that they can suffer from timing tensioner and chain stretch problems so I'm thinking that maybe this is timing tensioner or chain related of perhaps oil starvation to the cams/vvt gear?

Any pointers to help diagnose please?

Thanks.

[stantheman1]

The P0016 code can come on when there is dirty oil in the engine and it can also come on for a faulty vvti sensor. What is the condition of the oil, has it been replaced recently or just topped up when low? If the oil is old and dirty I would be inclined to have an oil and filter change asap. You say the engine consumes or looses oil, if it's the latter then there likely would be oil stains where the car has been stood for long periods if not you can assume it's being consumed one way or another, what is the mileage and does it have any service history? Does the car mostly do short journeys? If so I would have the pcv valve and associated hoses checked.

[Mettymatty]

Thanks for the reply.😁

Sorry for the vagueness in my previous post. It consumes oil rather than losing it externally. The car has spent almost all of it's life doing short journeys but they're long enough to properly warm up the engine so that it's not just running over enriched. When it does see a bit of motorway you can actually smell the oil burning at higher revs but it doesn't smoke at all. It's done about 35k miles and we've had it from new. To be honest the oil changes haven't been done bang on the service intervals but they have been done regularly, some at the stealership and a couple by me. 

It's been consuming oil about the same time the rattle from cold started and up until today we've lived with it but now the engine light's come on I'm starting to worry.

 

[furtula]

How long does the rattle last? On your last service, did you use filter with the no return valve?

Having done only short journeys does not sound good, car needs to do few longer ones too, from time to time.

Problem is oil starvation is the main cause of chain issues, and the oil sensors usually turn on when it's a bit too late for the engine.

Looks like the car might be suffering from stuck piston rings (but we still do not know how much oil it consumes per 1k miles).

I would try putting some piston ring cleaners, or how it's called, you let them sit overnight, then crank the engine day after, then drive it harder for a bit, i saw people saying it helps.

After that a new filter, with return spring, and some decent oil.

 

I don't know your engine code, so you can refer to this manual for some info

http://manualespurdy.cisdigital.com/Toyota/YarisJul2010/rm12w3s/MANUAL.HTM/rm12w3s/index2.html

 

[Mettymatty]

 

The rattle only lasts for a few seconds from when the engine is stone cold. (Usually first thing in the morning.)  The car does about 20 miles per day and I've been putting in 250 -500ml of oil per month.

I don't recall any kind of valve on the filter? It takes the paper type filter that goes inside a housing in the engine rather than the spin on can type.

I did read some where that stuck rings is also a common fault but I thought it was older toyotas that suffered more with this fault? Also the rattle makes me suspect that it's the items I previously mentioned although I could be wrong. Is there a particular product that comes recommended as some could do more harm than good?

I think it's worth me checking the PCV to start with as it's easy to check and cheap to replace. 

Does anyone know a good place to buy from or a part number for a 2010 1.33 vvti please?

Thanks for the link to the Toyota info! Unfortunately it appears to be in Spanish??

 

[mrpj]

13 hours ago, Mettymatty said:

and sometimes the mrs won't check it until the point the oil light will start to flicker on the dash

Could that be the initial problem? Insufficient oil and oil pressure warning resulting in excessive mechanical wear.

 

11 hours ago, Mettymatty said:

To be honest the oil changes haven't been done bang on the service intervals

Which could result in dirty oil and a subsequent fault.

It should be safe to assume that the "stealership" have used the correct oil and a genuine filter but what oil and filter have you used? Hopefully not tried to save a few pennies on a cheap filter and poor or wrong oil.

[Madasafish]

These engines tend to burn a little oil. Annual mileage?

Rattle on startup? low oil pressure.. Most likely chain which is tensioned by oil pressure.

So as above:

1. Correct oil and oil level

2. Correct type filter .Cheap ones are a waste of moeny.. Toyota Orginal Equipment in not dear.

3 Service it regularly.

It sounds as if you are trying to test it to destruction. You will succeed.

[Mettymatty]

To be clear..

The car had all of it's services performed at the Toyota dealers whilst it was in it's warranty and finance period to comply with the T & Cs of the agreements.

When I said they were not "bang on", they were all performed within 2 months of receiving a reminder letter from the dealers. As the vehicle doesn't do a great number of miles between services we considered this to be acceptable and the garage never advised otherwise.

It's not entirely clear what grade of oil is acceptable as it would appear that 5w40 semi synthetic was recommended but then 0w40 fully synthetic was to be used from what I've read. Personally I have always the Shell helix version of the 5w40.

I have used non genuine filters and as far as I'm aware these are pattern parts that conform to OE specifications.

I don't know about a filter with a valve and nobody so far has advised what this is as mentioned in previous posts.

Yes, the car does short journeys but I wouldn't say it's been neglected?

It now burns oil and has a rattle on starting.

It's only since these issues have arisen that the oil light has flashed up on occasion and I deal with it ad soon as I'm made aware.

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression before.

Can anyone recommend a good online retailer in the UK to buy Toyota spares please? (PCV and timing chain kit perhaps)

Thanks

[Mettymatty]

Sorry should've said 0w20 and 5w20 not w40's. - I work 12hr shifts and they take their toll.😴

[G6-R]

Overhere in Holland the guy's from the  corollaforum.nl aint using Shell Helix cause its bad for the valveseals  Go and use another brand of Oil.

better use this 

Castrol GTX 5W40 A3 B4 5 Liter

[furtula]

You said the car does 20 miles per day, times 20 working days is 400 miles, and that you top up around 250-500ml per month, that's a pretty heavy consumption. 

Normal oil consumption for a gasoline would be something like 1 liter to 10k km (6k miles).

Yes, you are right when you say that the previous models had problems with piston rings, and it should be fixed in your model, probably is, but i think plenty of short trips took it's toll on the car, also the car needs long distance driving from time to time.

I do not think it's a good investment to do a chain+ tensioner, even if it's a low mileage car, considering you also have problems with oil burning, and that's a much more expensive job.

Could be that error you got was just one, you might be lucky.

 

Personally, i would recommend getting some good oil + Toyota genuine filter, i would go with 5W30 for a bit better lubrication, and trying to get the piston rings cleaned.

Toyota filter should fix the cold start rattle. If the rattle goes away after a second or two, it's fine, i have it also sometimes.

So i would do it like this >> Get something for stuck oil rings, like Seafom, or similar, let it soak overnight in all cylinders, tomorrow crank the car with plugs out to get it out.

Drive a bit until the car stops smoking (due to additive you will use to unstick the rings) and then do engine flush and replace oil + filter.

 

 

[flash22]

tbh do a dry and wet compression test if its down on compression i would look at putting in another engine in the car VS doing a timing chain kit and all the other items that are bound to need doing

as for the rattling at start up its more than likely a chain tensioner issue due to bad/lack of oil if this is the case you are look at top end wear as well and vvti issues in the future (the vvti system needs clean oil to operate correctly)

dealer servicing is very hit-and-miss, I can't prove it but mine was done by Steve wonder's guide dog i think

[Mettymatty]

Thanks for the comments and advice.😀

The MIL light came on again late yesterday, same P0016 code twice in 2 days now.😣 I told the mrs not to drive it any more but we need it for school run and her work.

Today was my day off so once I'd dropped everyone off (in my car), I reset the MIL light again, gave the engine a flush and changed the oil and filter. I had to settle with Halfords stuff as thats all I could get at short notice. I used their own brand 'Toyota' 0w20 and a Crossland filter which is the same filter I've used in the past. - Not ideal I know.! I should probably point out that I live on an island so that's the reason for the short journeys and it also limits availabilty of choice unless you order online and then things take longer than elsewhere to arrive (and delivery costs more!)

I did call the Toyota dealership and they didn't have either the right filter or a new PCV valve in stock. The guy said they hadn't sold a PCV in the last 15 years which I was surprised at.

My PCV looks very black and by the way so I ordered a new one online.

After clearing the MIL fault this morning I started the car briefly from cold. The rattle/clatter lasted about 4 seconds and then completely disappears. The MIL light also stayed out. The rattle sounds more like its from the cams rather than the timing chain.

Once I'd changed the oil I took the car for a short drive. On start up it was noticebly quiter although it still rattled but only for a second.

Once it had warmed up I drove it hard in short bursts (but didn't redline it) I hoped this would show up any faults. Nothing obvious showed up so I'll let it go cold and I'll take it out again later to see if the MIL fault comes back.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the piston problem was sorted in 2013?

There was also a modded chain tensioner produced at some point?

I'm wondering if the cold start noise is more oil control valve related?

 

 

[scannerman]

Had a similar problem with mine, oil light stays on for a few seconds too long on start up in the morning. I used a flushing oil as I suspected that there may be restricted oilway in the engine reducing circulation, hence the slow oil pressure. It also sounded "tappety". Put the flushing fluid in with oil in the car and run it for 15 mins, drained said oil, new filter and oil, I use 5/30, I don't think its that critical as long as its a reputable quality. problems gone, oil light goes off almost immediately and no unusual sounds.

Have a look at the PCV valve and change if suspect, its not a difficult Job.

Toyota seem to have had a problem with oil control piston rings sticking over time. This allows engine oil to escape past the pistons into the combustion chambers, if this is occurring you will notice a smokey exhaust when revving the engine. This will be expensive to repair and on your car will probably cheaper to leave.

In general it seems that older Yaris tend to use a bit of oil, as long as there is no sign of it leaking `I would advise the engine flush and see if that helps.

[flash22]

Ah you're out on Hayling Island, the roads are like a car park getting on and off there at peak times and even worse in tourist season

[Mettymatty]

Almost, I'm across the solent on the IOW.

Well it's been a few days now and still no start up rattle or MIL fault.👍🤫

It's too early to check for oil consumption but I'll try and report back as and when.

Thanks to all for your comments and advice!😁

[Mettymatty]

Well it lasted 2 weeks.. The MIL engine light has just come on.

Basil Fawlty time I think! 🙍‍♂️🌳

[Konrad C]

I have read some of the posts and come to the same conclusion, that the car may have not had shorter period services to match its use. When I had my previous '98 Avensis, the car had an oil change every 6 months. My current '09 Avensis has it once a year, using 0w-20 oil. Hardly need to top up in between.
You are on the right track with what you do so far, but I think the damage may have been done. The time chain, vvti unit and the guides which need good oil, may have suffered. I read up on P0016 and it sounds like the timing between the crank and cam does not always match. I hope the tensioner has not suffered! 

[FROSTYBALLS]

On 11/20/2019 at 2:02 PM, Mettymatty said:

When I said they were not "bang on", they were all performed within 2 months of receiving a reminder letter from the dealers. As the vehicle doesn't do a great number of miles between services we considered this to be acceptable and the garage never advised otherwise.

Believe Toyota have a leeway of 1,000 miles or 1 month for servicing.

As regards the new car warranty, late servicing will only be an issue if a warranty claim occurred which was dependent on correct servicing - so a dealer wouldn't mention anything until this situation arose. Otherwise it is the responsibility of the owner to have the vehicle serviced within the appropriate service interval - same applies to any other manufacturer.