Not as fast

[MikeEH]

Recently part exed my 2006 Avensis T25 for a 2010 T27 and although the T25 was 129bhp, it was far nippier than the T27 at 143bhp. Can anyone advise on this please? Don't get me wrong, the T27 is quick, but the T25 was quicker.  For example, I have to go up a fairly steep hill to get to my home, and in the T25 it would glide up in 3rd no problem, whereas I have to go up in second in the T27 otherwise in 3rd it seems to struggle. Strange.

As an aside, during my time with the T25 I was always trying to get the best mpg from it and during a return from Brighton two years ago, I was getting 49.9 mpg along the M4. Even with encouragement from my wife, the car absolutely refused to hit the magic 50mpg. But, last week, as we were driving along the M4 to Swansea to exchange the car for my new (to me) T27, the old girl started going into the 50+ mpg, hitting 53.6 mpg, and averaging 53.2mpg. Do you think she was having a strop, feeling un-wanted and upset at me? Could be..... (Photo was taken over my shoulder)

[FROSTYBALLS]

The 2006 Avensis would have weighed between 1330-1535kg, and the 2010 Avensis between 1435 and 1650kg - so the newer one will be heavier, plus it will have more stringent emissions equipment.

[Konrad C]

When I got my '09 T27 Tourer, I still had my old '98 T22, both 1.8, four years ago. The T22 felt more lively lower down the rev range, but with the T27 real power started from close to 3000 rpm. Fuel economy is roughly the same. I sold the T22, and did a few little things to the T27 to make me feel more at home. 
I change the oil and filters, using 0w20 grade oil. The spark plugs are Denso Iridium plugs and I cleaned the MAF sensor. Also check the tyre pressures.
My engine now seems to pull well, and I'm in the next gear up when not needing power. So long as the car keeps up with traffic and goes up hills fine, I am not too fussed.
I have been in a T22 and T25 with 1ZZ engine, and they seem to have a good power to weight ratio. My T27 didn't seem any different, but I didn't get to all scenarios. One scenario between my old leanburn and Valvematic was on the motorway. The old car took off in 5th gear, whilst I need to change down to 5th or even 4th to match in the T27. I live near a hilly area and the car copes fine.  
    

[MikeEH]

Thanks for replies.

Yes I noticed it when going to overtake....T25 went like a rocket in 5th, have to drop to 4th in T27 for same acceleration.

As you say, keeps up with traffic, nice to drive and very comfortable......so great car.

[PeteB]

Maybe the gears are 'taller' to aid mpg and emissions in the new car, which may well also help make it more relaxed at a given speed, but possibly need a lower gear to get the same acceleration, on top of extra weight and possible tuning changes.

[Gerg]

 

On 12/3/2019 at 10:51 PM, MikeEH said:

T25 was 129bhp, it was far nippier than the T27 at 143bhp.

Curiously, the Ford Mondeos of similar age followed the same pattern.  The 130hp Mk3 was well received, but when a newer Mk3 143hp model was launched, owners slated it as being slower than the 130 hp models that they had traded-in, and the engine was reckoned to be less responsive.

I think both Toyota and Ford might have been struggling to keep NOx levels within legislative limits when they uprated the engines, obviously not a concern to VAG at the time, but it is interesting that Toyota and Ford have never been dragged into the mire with that problem. 

From what I gather, for a given diesel engine size, extra power only comes with higher combustion chamber temperatures, which inevitably makes the (normally fairly unreactive) nitrogen more likely to oxidise into NOx etc.  So bad news, unless someone is willing to cost-in D-CAT or SCR (Adblue) equipment.

One engine that has mostly escaped government scrutiny is the Renault/Nissan 1.5DCi unit.  It is very economical, powerful, has no specific NOx reduction technology, and consequently manages to put out 15 times its claimed NOx limit 'on the road' over its supposed government tested rating, say the Emission Analytics company.  Not too difficult to see how they managed to get so much out of so little.

I think as the regulations have capped emissions limits, then the torque curve (and especially the area under the Torque curve) has taken a hit, so the car can feel slower.

[MikeEH]

My T27 is petrol not diesel, so would the above comments still apply regarding the NOx levels?

[Konrad C]

38 minutes ago, MikeEH said:

My T27 is petrol not diesel, so would the above comments still apply regarding the NOx levels?

No not really. The emissions on the Valvematic engine are better than the previous ZZ engine.  I have been in all 3 version of the Avensis and petrol engines. As I mentioned earlier, I had the T22 with the 7AFE engine, I have been in the T22 with the 1.8 1ZZ engine. I also been in the T25 hatchback and estate, both with the same 1ZZ engine, and I currently own the T27 Tourer estate with the 1.8 2ZR Valvematic engine. 
I did a back to back with my friends T25 Tourer TR and my T27. My car felt more relaxed, and with the 6th gear less go. The thing is, when I need the power and hold the gear, the engine can deliver. I do tend to change up early and use 5th at steady speed from 30 mph. My car currently does feel lively in the lower gears.
Factor in the torque of the two engines and the Valvematic is better, but the weight of the car partly negates the advantage. 
Overall I am happy with the performance.
 

[MikeEH]

I find my T27 is better acceleration-wise at higher revs, unlike my old T25 that seemed to zoom at any revs. As a test, there's a long-ish hill leading up to my housing estate, and my old T25 could go up the hill in 3rd gear, easily achieve 40 mph and could carry on accelerating, whereas my T27 can only achieve 32 - 35 mph and that's yer lot, mate. My wife's 1200 cc 2003 Micra can achieve 40mph in 3rd, and my daughter's 2016 1600cc Juke can fly up at 40 mph and feels like there's plenty more to go. In 2nd gear, my T27.....well, there's no stopping it. I have to state here that I don't make a rule of exceeding 30 mph up the hill, I just did it the once in each car as a test, and very late at night. On the flat, my T27 seems pretty equal to the old T25 when overtaking, etc. Plugs are new, air filter is new and tyres are at correct pressure.