Rav4 Hybrid Not Starting.

[BigGreenKwak]

My Rav4 has been parked up for 17 days whilst I was away on holiday.

Yesterday I started it up and drove around the block (about 1.5 miles) just to make sure it was all fine before returning to work today. I all seemed fine and the engine was running for all of the trip because the heater was on. I parked it back up, but when I tried leaving for work at 05:30 it wouldn't start. A message on the dash said "smart entry & start system malfunction", tried leaving the car and locking it but it would not lock, other messages then appeared such as "parking brake not available".

I have heard that the 12volt Battery is a bit weak so before I went away I disconnected the dash cam to reduce the Battery drain, but surely a brand new Battery shouldn't drain in 2 weeks of not being used. I am at this point it is just a drained 12 volt battery.

Anyone else suffered anything similar.   

[Anthony Poli]

2 hours ago, BigGreenKwak said:

My Rav4 has been parked up for 17 days whilst I was away on holiday.
Yesterday I started it up and drove around the block (about 1.5 miles) just to make sure it was all fine before returning to work today. I all seemed fine and the engine was running for all of the trip because the heater was on. I parked it back up, but when I tried leaving for work at 05:30 it wouldn't start. A message on the dash said "smart entry & start system malfunction", tried leaving the car and locking it but it would not lock, other messages then appeared such as "parking brake not available".
I have heard that the 12volt battery is a bit weak so before I went away I disconnected the dash cam to reduce the battery drain, but surely a brand new battery shouldn't drain in 2 weeks of not being used. I am at this point it is just a drained 12 volt battery.
Anyone else suffered anything similar.   

From personal experience, the ready light fails to light up when the Battery is low. That was on a 2010 Auris hybrid.

Have you checked/replaced the key fob Battery?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PeteB]

Firstly you may find the link below interesting background.  

One of the technicians at my dealer told me the RAV4 has a 52Ah 12V Battery, which is certainly higher capacity than any previous Hybrid I've owned, but then ti has to contend with an electrically operative driver's seat and tailgate.

I'm surprised you've has this problem after 17 days, and especially as you've run the car briefly yesterday.  I do tend to be a bit apprehensive of using the 12V Battery or leaving it unused for any length of time given my experience with Hybrids (the only concern I've had, really).  In view of this I personally would have driven it for 20 minutes or so yesterday.  Even if you'd left a door ajar or an interior light on, the car usually cancels any lights after 20 minutes.  And if I'm sitting in the car and want power, I stay in READY mode, not accessory or ignition.

I do keep a mini jump starter in the seat-back pocked just in case (it's no good in the boot if the power fails), and did need it a few times on my last Gen 4 Prius until they replaced the 12V Battery, which was surprising.  No prob on the RAV (so far🤞), but I'm careful to use the tailgate and seat memory buttons while the car is READY (I have a driving position and another for getting in and out); I'm probably being over cautious.

 

 

[BigGreenKwak]

Thanks guys, the Battery in the fob is fine, I did put the key fob into sleep mode before I went away, mainly to reduce hacking. I find it a bit worrying that people are having to carry portable chargers with them just in case the 12 volt Battery goes flat (which they obviously are), I would expect this on an older cheaper car, not on a £35000 3 month old car. I have front and rear dash cams fitted and they are hard wired via a voltage drop sensor, after the car is parked I only get around 4-5 hours before it turns off due to the voltage dropping to 12.4 volt. The car mainly does short trips of around 7 miles each way to work and back. I'm in work until 18:00 so I cant get any more details I have another trip coming up which I will have to park at the airport and this doesn't give me any confidence at all. Am guessing running the car briefly yesterday done no good for the Battery at all, lights and heater where probably taking more amps out of the battery than what was being put in. 

[Dippy]

Have you tried holding the key fob close to the start button when pressing it?

does sound like a dicky Battery though. 

[roadster-rav]

Remember that the 12 volt Battery will be charged from the traction Battery whenever in READY mode. So provided you are in a secure location there is no harm in leaving the car in ready mode in order to charge the Battery. Although the charge rate can be quite high its not going to be charged in just a few minutes so leaving it in READY for an hour or so may be a good idea. Should the traction battery become low the engine will fire up as necessary to maintain it so I can't see any harm in leaving it in park for an indefinite period. N.B. Don't leave it in neutral because this disconnects the traction battery and discharges the 12volt battery ( see owners manual warning).

[PeteB]

As Acer says, whenever the car is READY and not in N the 12V Battery gets charged.  I'm pretty sure the charge from the HV side is more than enough to run any accessories as well as charge the Battery.

The thing that surprised me is that when you ran the car the day before, you didn't get a message on the dash to say the 12V Battery was low.  This did happen on my 4th Gen Prius when I had battery issues and I would expect the RAV4 to do the same.

I never had any more problems with the Prius after the 12V battery was replaced, and I'm pretty sure I did nothing to harm it during my ownership, so I guess either I had a dud one or it got flattened before delivery and that weakened it (although like the RAV, I ordered it as soon as it was announced and waited for it to be delivered fresh from the factory, so I'd be surprised if it was the latter).

I take your point about needing a portable charger on such a new and expensive car, but the peace of mind is worth it for me.  (It also has a powerful LED torch built in, and two USB charging ports for phones, iPads etc, so it's quite useful).  And apart from my original Gen 1 Prius and the hiccup with the Gen 4, it's been used more often to help other people than myself.

When the second Gen (hatchback) Prius came out and had an electric boot release, there were some amusing tales of people climbing through from the driver's door of deadlocked cars with flat 12Vs to crawl into the boot to operate the internal release to get jump leads to the battery - if only they'd RTFM and read about the jump start terminals under the bonnet!

[Buff69]

Hi PeteB, which mini jump starter did you buy, I’ve had a look on Amazon and there’s loads of them so be good to get a recommended one cheers 

[PeteB]

Mine's a RAVPower 500A/12000mAh.  Bought it from Amazon 4 years ago for £60. Specs & prices have probably changed but I've been pleased with it.  The little case it comes in fits nicely in the seatback pocket.

[unclepoo]

I was looking to buy a rav4 hybrid at a toyota dealership. As the car had been stood on the forecourt for several weeks, the Battery had gone flat. The salesman picked up there starter pack, clipped it to the points under the bonnet and the car went into ready mode straight away...

I prefer one of these as it can inflate a tyre as well  www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12v-Portable-Car-Jump-Starter-Air-Compressor-Battery-Start-Booster-Charger-Leads/131666306315?epid=13035195509&hash=item1ea7ec650b:g:JfcAAOSwYS5d8NSY

[PeteB]

I've got one of those at home too, it's also handy for my bikes.  I keep a separate inflator in the boot which plugs into one of the 12V sockets.

I like mini one in the car because getting into to boot is a nightmare if the battery's flat, especially if the car is deadlocked.

[Buff69]

Cheers fella’s I have had a look on Amazon and going to get one 👍

[Scottydog007]

Out of interest for rare issues like this, surely the AA cover would look after this the car is 3 months old. Can standard jump leads be used? Is there easy access to the Battery terminals?

[BigGreenKwak]

It's looking like it's not so rare, the AA would certinally cover it, the question is should it need to cover things like this on a 3 month old car just because it's not been used for just over 2 weeks. Not to mention the lost time in arriving in work a couple of hours late while waiting for the AA to arrive at 05:30. Luckily I had the use of my wife's car. I may go and ask the dealer to have the Battery checked out and replaced if needed.

[BigGreenKwak]

Thanks everyone, I think I may of learnt something here. I was thinking the 12volt Battery was charged the conventional way via an alternator driven off the engine. I never thought of the HV Battery would be doing the charging, you never stop learning.

I have just done a check on the 12 volt Battery. With the car in ready mode and the engine not running the 12 volt battery had a reading of 14.45 volts which is normal, with the car turned off and everything turned off that I could turn off the voltage dropped to 11.85 volt almost instantly. I'm aware that there are still sensors and things that will still be active when the car is off but I'm quite sure the voltage should be around 12.4 to 12.6 volts. It's now booked in to the stealer ship on Friday for a check. 

[roadster-rav]

16 hours ago, BigGreenKwak said:

Thanks everyone, I think I may of learnt something here. I was thinking the 12volt battery was charged the conventional way via an alternator driven off the engine. I never thought of the HV battery would be doing the charging, you never stop learning.

I have just done a check on the 12 volt battery. With the car in ready mode and the engine not running the 12 volt battery had a reading of 14.45 volts which is normal, with the car turned off and everything turned off that I could turn off the voltage dropped to 11.85 volt almost instantly. I'm aware that there are still sensors and things that will still be active when the car is off but I'm quite sure the voltage should be around 12.4 to 12.6 volts. It's now booked in to the stealer ship on Friday for a check. 

Sounds like your Battery is bad. I checked mine after unlocking the car and got 12.3 volts. Then I switched to ready mode and got 14.8 volts which was maintained even when the engine was not running. I think 14.8 volts implies a high charging current, I'm guessing it could be over 10 amps which is OK but might not give the Battery a very long life.

[unclepoo]

Your Battery is definitely at fault. It should be at 12.5v approx. Is it covered under warranty..?

A good smart charger can breath a new lease of life into a tired Battery, but cant work miracles. 

C-tec are probably the best known brand, just don`t buy something too high amp rating, as these batteries are only small. 4 amp would be good.

[PeteB]

On 12/17/2019 at 4:08 PM, BigGreenKwak said:

Thanks everyone, I think I may of learnt something here. I was thinking the 12volt battery was charged the conventional way via an alternator driven off the engine. I never thought of the HV battery would be doing the charging, you never stop learning...

Toyota Hybrids have never had an alternator - all electric power produced by the car comes from one of the 2 motor/generators (3 in a AWD model like the AWD RAV4 or AWD Prius).

And you're so right about never stopping learning - I've done over 320,000 miles in various Hybrids since 2002 and have done loads of research.  Also, from 2007-2011 I managed a fleet of Prius (nearly 300 by 2011) and occasionally met some of the senior technicians from Toyota HQ, but I'm still learning new things even now.

[BigGreenKwak]

Took the car into the stealership today and they confirmed "there is nothing wrong with the battery". Which doesn't help me at all. 

So as a result I have removed the hard wiring for the dash cams, the technician thinks the voltage drop senor could of been causing some feed back and keeping a relay open somewhere, hence running the Battery down. Apparently the 12 volt Battery only supplies power to 3 relays, I'm guessing these would have to be Smart Key System, Alarm and what ever its needs to start the hybrid system at start up. Dash cams now powered via cigarette lighter, if the batter carries on being drained then it will go back to the stealership for a voltage drop test for half a day. 

I did get the headlamp aim adjusted as it was quite low, so not a complete wasted trip. 

 

 

 

[marlinleg]

thank you one and all I have learnt a lot . I asked the Dealership if I could put my 12v Battery on trickle  charge via a smart Battery charger they said under no 

[Kwacker]

It’s no good, I’ve tried to complete marlinleg’s post of the 29th December by adding words after his final ‘no.....’ but get completely different answers. So marlinleg, what did the dealership say?

[PeteB]

my guess?  Circumstances

[emin-j]

New vehicles can be left in storage at UK import centres for quite some time with batteries still connected, the models with easy access to Battery usually gets the negative Battery lead disconnected but most hybrid vehicles are left connected and although the ‘dome’ fuse is not fitted over time the Battery will discharge especially in the colder months, if the battery is left in a discharged state it will deteriorate to a level where  even if charged will never be a ‘healthy’ battery. 

Also vehicles fitted with a factory alarm if armed for a period of weeks can slowly discharge the battery and if the battery is not in tip top condition could reach the point where it’s unable to start the car.

[Kwacker]

Although I suspected that Pete B’s response was correct, I thought it was worth asking. With no other reply I checked with the dealer and can confirm that the starter Battery cannot be trickle charged. I’m in the process of acquiring a Ring RPPL 300 jump starter (which seems to have the best reviews)

[roadster-rav]

On 1/13/2020 at 5:42 PM, Kwacker said:

Although I suspected that Pete B’s response was correct, I thought it was worth asking. With no other reply I checked with the dealer and can confirm that the starter battery cannot be trickle charged. I’m in the process of acquiring a Ring RPPL 300 jump starter (which seems to have the best reviews)

In spite of what the quoted dealer said I see no reason that the 12 volt Battery ( which is not actually the "starter" Battery ) should not be charged from a good quality charger provided no attempt is made to put it into ready mode while the charger is attached. In fact when I went in to finalize purchase on mine the car was sitting in the dealers showroom with professional type charger attached under the bonnet and I took the opportunity to look at the charge rate and voltage. I haven't needed to charge it so far but it could be necessary as I use the car less in summer. I suspect this is more of the over cautious legalese because if ready mode is switched on with a charger attached it could damage the charger or even start a fire. It is always the case that a poor quality charger could damage the electronics of any modern car and I certainly wouldn't attach one of those horrible old tin ones with a mains transformer and a half wave rectifier that we used to use. For those who want to be completely safe the Battery earth could be disconnected and the battery charged from the boot, but there are some systems that might need to be re-initialized in that case. ( covered in the owners manual).

There might be some missunderstanding with dealers about which battery is which and out of interest I did try to quiz them about whether there was any method of charging the traction battery in a workshop repair situation. The question probably went over their heads though.