Anti-theft, gasoline pump or...

[rug]

hi,

A friend of mine with a aygo mk1 (2008 i think) asked me for advice on an good anti-theft device.

My idea is put a relay in the negative or positive of gasoline pump and drive the relay with a hidden switch or a remote controller, but i have to know some informations

1) how many cables there are in the pump power plug? Is it easy to find the negative or the positive?

2) how many amps does the pump absorb?

3) is there a hidden space where i can install the relay?Because i can install it near the plug but is better if it is in another e more hidden place.

Of course, if you have any other good ideas about a good anti-theft device, just say, I read with interest.

[flash22]

What country are you from ? 95% of Aygo's have an immobilizer (chip inside the key) if you want added security go for a cat 2-1 plip alarm from the likes of cobra - or just get a mechanical steering lock (diskloc) type device

 

tbh a Aygo is not a desirable car if they want it they will take it no matter what you do to secure it

[rug]

I'm from Palermo, Italy and somebody already tried to take the car last month; i know that if they want it they will take it no matter what you do to secure it, but if it is too hard, they will take another car.

A tracker tk 103 b could be perfect, but it's too hard to use for a young girl 🤣

Immobilizer can be avoided by changing the control unit and also  mechanical steering lock can by avoided easily.

I have no idea about "cat 2-1 plip", do you have a link?

Anyway, here a video where i explain my idea, i have a corsa but i think it's the same

https://youtu.be/8_TLvEYeaEM

[eygo]

 Hi Rug

why dont you use a 12v remote switch you will then need to press a button 

on a remote to turn on the fuel pump and there will be no need to hide a switch in the car.

here is a link for you

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-Remote-Control-Receiver-Transmitter/dp/B07N7J3HWM/ref=asc_df_B07N7J3HWM/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=394281259420&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17848435346595988364&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006998&hvtargid=pla-837705894705&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=84483193560&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=394281259420&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17848435346595988364&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006998&hvtargid=pla-837705894705

[rug]

Yeaaaaaaah, i'm looking for something like that or like this

But i have to know

1) if it's easy find negative and positive in the plug of pump, like in my car.

2) Max load of pump in Ampere.

3)The path of the power cables, to find a hidden place to install the relay.

If somebody can help me I will post a video of the installation 😎😎

thanks a lot and merry christmas

[eygo]

you only need to find 1 wire going to the pump positive preferably

cut the cable then take the 2 ends of the cut wire to the relay marked

NO (normally open) then add a live and an earth feed and your done

you could extend the cables and then mount / hide the unit behind the dash.

 

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

This is an interesting topic.

I have a steering lock on mine. Are they really easy to attack?

[rug]

On 12/24/2019 at 9:51 PM, eygo said:

you only need to find 1 wire going to the pump positive preferably

cut the cable then take the 2 ends of the cut wire to the relay marked

NO (normally open) then add a live and an earth feed and your done

you could extend the cables and then mount / hide the unit behind the dash.

I'm a engineer so i know how install a relay, but i don't know load in ampere of the pump.

I need a hidden place because if the thief find where i cut the wire, he can simply join the two ends to disable the relay.

On 12/25/2019 at 9:33 PM, SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS said:

This is an interesting topic.

I have a steering lock on mine. Are they really easy to attack?

And...if you buy something like this https://www.amazon.it/Einhell-4431113-Smerigliatrice-Angolare-Batteria/dp/B01LL1VHBW/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01LL1VHBW&pd_rd_r=0a845ce0-8ea7-11e9-ba0e-01c996a57009&pd_rd_w=xBKIr&pd_rd_wg=NZjTf&pf_rd_p=37660d27-94f1-4ebe-be01-184b332a9b15&pf_rd_r=CKM73QNDD2S2VTC627QN&psc=1&refRID=CKM73QNDD2S2VTC627QN&linkCode=sl1&tag=rmtattoo-21&linkId=f5167f5d74be84316d676ef871952d44&language=it_IT you can cut everything very fast

does anyone know the path of the fuel pump cables?

[flash22]

The immobilizer already cuts the fuel pump and spark via the ecu, the fuel pump is cut by the control side of the pump relay

A 2-1 plip alarm upgrades the factory immobilizer from Thatcham Cat 2 to Cat 1 what adds extra immobilizer points like the starter and adds an alarm, The alarm is armed with the oem key fob (known as a plip)

https://automotive.vodafone.co.uk/vodafone-automotive-products/alarms-and-immobilisers/a4198-cat-2-1-modular-alarm-.aspx

A Disklok covers the whole wheel making them a bit more secure

https://www.disklokuk.co.uk/

I will have a look and see if I have an alarm techsheet for the aygo, I used to fit alarms and car audio many years ago

[rug]

Thanks for the explanation about 1 plip alarm upgrades but the question is "after the installation, if i swap the control unit with another one without code, what will happen?

Because with a normal car with immobilizer, if you swap the control unit with another without code after you can use the car.

 

Instead, if the fuel pump doesn't work and the relay is well hidden, the thief can only push it.

Ok, thanks, if you have alarm techsheet for the aygo it could be interesting, maybe there is some informations about fuel pump.

[flash22]

Do you mean change the remote for the locking ? that will not affect the alarm as its wired into the central locking, or you could have a remote for the alarm

thieves will target certain cars as they know work arounds for the factory systems, Audi's, BMW's, high end fords and VW's are targeted with keyless start systems (known as relay theifts)

In the Southeast of England fiat 500's were targeted along with range rovers, one fiat abarth owner had the whole front end taken inc the radiators

[eygo]

On 12/24/2019 at 9:51 PM, eygo said:

you only need to find 1 wire going to the pump positive preferably

cut the cable then take the 2 ends of the cut wire to the relay marked

NO (normally open) then add a live and an earth feed and your done

you could extend the cables and then mount / hide the unit behind the dash.

I'm a engineer so i know how install a relay, but i don't know load in ampere of the pump.

I need a hidden place because if the thief find where i cut the wire, he can simply join the two ends to disable the relay

why dont you use your multi meter on the AMP setting and see what current is drawn during startup and use

probably your easiest way to know the load

[rug]

On 12/26/2019 at 7:42 PM, flash22 said:

Do you mean change the remote for the locking ? that will not affect the alarm as its wired into the central locking, or you could have a remote for the alarm

thieves will target certain cars as they know work arounds for the factory systems, Audi's, BMW's, high end fords and VW's are targeted with keyless start systems (known as relay theifts)

In the Southeast of England fiat 500's were targeted along with range rovers, one fiat abarth owner had the whole front end taken inc the radiators

Sorry, i think that my english it's a limit, i will try to explain better.

Immobilizer is an anti theft where there is a code, the same code is written inside the key and inside the control unit, which is inside the car.

I'm not sure that right name is "control unit", but to understand, you can read control unit with a OBD scanner.

So, if there is the same code in the key and in the control unit, you can use the car.

 To steal cars with immobilizers, thieves remove the code from the control units and replace the control unit in the cars they want to steal...you can see in the video which i linked that thieves open the car hood to replace the control unit.

Another video with better explanation

But if the fuel pump does not work, also with a swap of control unit, the car will not start.

On 12/26/2019 at 8:27 PM, eygo said:

why dont you use your multi meter on the AMP setting and see what current is drawn during startup and use

probably your easiest way to know the load

Because it is not my car and i don't know how works that pump, maybe there are just negative and positive or maybe there is a strange PWN control with ten wires or something like that.

I was hoping someone would say "hey rug, I did it just yesterday, ask me what you want,indeed, if you come here to the UK there is a hot friend of mine who loves Italian boys"...but i see that nobody did it, maybe everybody is busy with hot friend 🤣

However, if nobody know the answers, i will check in the next days.

[flash22]

The ecu is coded to the bcm and cluster as well as the immobilizer ring around the steering lock, if one of them doesn't communicate with the ecu it will not start, on some cars an ecu can reprogrammed to disable any security but this is very specialist and requires very expensive equipment

As i said above if they want something they will take it

Regarding the relay what is the fuse rating for the fuel pump - double that rating will be plenty for a relay tbh when fitting audio and alarms you use a standard 30/40A 5 pin 12v relay as they are cheap and very common

[rug]

7 hours ago, flash22 said:

The ecu is coded to the bcm and cluster as well as the immobilizer ring around the steering lock, if one of them doesn't communicate with the ecu it will not start, on some cars an ecu can reprogrammed to disable any security but this is very specialist and requires very expensive equipment

As i said above if they want something they will take it

Regarding the relay what is the fuse rating for the fuel pump - double that rating will be plenty for a relay tbh when fitting audio and alarms you use a standard 30/40A 5 pin 12v relay as they are cheap and very common

You can easily buy on eBay a ecu without code, price is around 100€, not so expensive.

Yes, if they want something they will take it, but only if there is a good reason...it's a cheap car, it not a ferrari, if it will not start in five minutes, they will take another one.

For example, some years ago i had a cheap car with a nice audio stereo, around 8000 watt rms, 4 15" and two zapco 3000@0,5 ohm...it was possibile only for tracker tk 103b.

Ok, i think that i have to check directly the load of fuel pomp, i can also buy a 50A relay and drive it with hidden switch, but i prefer a relay with remote controller, so i will see if load of pump is less than 10A.

If is less, i will buy the relay linked before.

[eygo]

it looks like the pump is protected by a 7.5amp fuse

1KR-FE ECU.pdf

[rug]

ok, thanks.

it's like i supposed, less than 10 A.

I also found this, so i know also where i can find the wires.

i think i have enought informations now

[FROSTYBALLS]

On 12/25/2019 at 9:33 PM, SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS said:

This is an interesting topic.

I have a steering lock on mine. Are they really easy to attack?

When Thatcham Research used to test steering wheel locks, the best (Disklok, Care Play Longarm, etc) used to delay thieves by around 2 minutes. Thatcham Research no longer test these.

However, Sold Secure have carried forward the testing and have their Gold standard which has a higher delay time of 5 minutes. As far as I'm aware only the Disklok and Milenco HSL steering wheel locks have achieved the Sold Secure Gold standard.

[rug]

hi, finally the relay is arrived and i tested it, just a test at home to see the load and how it works.

i toke this https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B076Q4HDNG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

There is a little problem, if i close the normaly open and i cut the power, when i reconnect the power the relay is in position "normaly closed", so i need to use normaly open for the power of fuel pump.

Here a little video

 

[eygo]

there are 3 modes for this type of relay and you have to setup the relay

in the way you need it to work the 3 modes are

1) latching ( remove power to reset )

2) momentary

3) toggle

you need it to be setup as toggle

[rug]

hi,

yes, i know and i already setup the relay in toggle mode, you can see in the video, if i press A i close the normaly open with a load a 37 mA, if i press b i close the normaly closed with a load of 5mA.

 

[flash22]

The current draw difference is the closing of the contacts as it needs energize the coil, the 5ma will be the current draw of the RF receiver and transistor to release the coil

So you will want to put the load across NO and COM as soon as you press the button it will close the contacts making the circuit