Thoughts on Corolla 2.0 hybrid acceleration/power

[OXYGEN]

Yesterday I had to drive for a while Hyundai Ioniq Electric, the old model with the smaller Battery. I was astonished by the acceleration. Or at least how it feels. 

And then I started wondering...The Corolla with the new 2.0 hybrid engine is advertised as 180hp and 0-100km/h in 8 seconds. My old Seat Leon FR 1.8TSI was 7.7s. This Hyundai Ioniq has ridiculous 9.9s...

So here is the thing. How is it possible a car 2 secs slower than mine to feel considerably faster (Ioniq and Corolla)? And how is it possible a 0.3 secs difference to be again noticeable (old Leon and current Corolla)?

I am starting to think, that the stated by Toyota HP and 8.0 secs for 0-100 are only doable with full Battery. Any empty bar in the Battery makes that time bigger and bigger and less power. But if this is the case, because of the nature of the hybrid system and how it charges the battery and how it likes it to sit in the middle, we actually have much slower and less powerful cars...The stated 8.0 180 are actually doable, but only in limited cases with specific preparations to top up the battery...

In reality it seems that on dual carriage way when you try to overtake someone, you almost never have these 180hp and 8 secs 0-100 (or the 80-120, etc.)

[rafletcher]

All acceleration figures are absolute maxima, achieved with no thought to the longevity of the car. In autos, it was foot on the brake, floor the accelerator and lift off the brake. Not great for the lifetime of the gearbox. In manuals, full revs and drop the clutch.

I'd guess, though, that the difference you felt with the Ioniq was down to the fact that electric drive gives maximum torque right through the rev range, whereas the hybrid system will rely to some extent on the IC engine and will take longer to reach peak torque.  With the 2.0l hybrid of course you need the car in Sport mode to get halfway decent acceleration.  It's brisk enough when used like that.

[AndrueC]

It might also depend where the 'umph' is. I think the 1.8's is fairly low down (which tbh is where you want it). I say that because off the mark - or at least when pulling away at low speed - there is a definite kick up the bum if you push the accelerator all the way down. However there's a long hill (dual carriageway) I drive on my commute away from the M40 and if I feel like being stupid and floor the accelerator my Corolla will get to just over 90 mph by the top. My Honda Jazz (1.3 CVT, 105 bhp I think) could get to 95 mph by the time it was half way up. But the Jazz definitely doesn't feel as powerful at lower speed.

Actually at really low speed if you don't kick the Jazz out of Atkinson mode it feels atrocious but that's another story. I got adept at giving it a mini-kick down to get it into Otto cycle before in advance :)

I have wondered in the past why Totoya didn't go with a 'dual-mode' engine.

[Catlover]

Oxygen, in your old Leon, did you ever do 0-100kph in 7.7 secs?

[nielshm]

I'm very impressed with the accelerationen in the 2.0. Get revs above 4000 rpm, and massive accelerationen kicks in. Below 4000 rpm, it has the feel of any standard petrol powered engine. 

I think you get a fake feel of powerfull accelerationen in the Hyundai. If 0-20 mph is instant with out delay, that snappy impression remains in the body, even if power fades and ends up beeing average. 

[Timmon]

5 hours ago, AndrueC said:

It might also depend where the 'umph' is. I think the 1.8's is fairly low down (which tbh is where you want it). I say that because off the mark - or at least when pulling away at low speed - there is a definite kick up the bum if you push the accelerator all the way down. However there's a long hill (dual carriageway) I drive on my commute away from the M40 and if I feel like being stupid and floor the accelerator my Corolla will get to just over 90 mph by the top. My Honda Jazz (1.3 CVT, 105 bhp I think) could get to 95 mph by the time it was half way up. But the Jazz definitely doesn't feel as powerful at lower speed.

Actually at really low speed if you don't kick the Jazz out of Atkinson mode it feels atrocious but that's another story. I got adept at giving it a mini-kick down to get it into Otto cycle before in advance 🙂

I have wondered in the past why Totoya didn't go with a 'dual-mode' engine.

That bit of duel carriage way is quite fun! I have been a bit silly and reached 88 half way up before throttling back, but I still find the high revs instantly and consistently a bit off putting, so have never tried to see just how fast I can get to. I have never floored it as I round that first corner,  as the revs already reach 5K , so I am a bit of a coward I think! But the 2 ltr is not to shabby compared to my old 2ltr turbo, if you can get used to the high revs and smooth constant acceleration. I have had an astonished BMW driver zoom by with disgust that a Corolla burnt them off from the lights, but I am happy to end the madness at that point....

[AndrueC]

10 hours ago, Timmon said:

That bit of duel carriage way is quite fun! I have been a bit silly and reached 88 half way up before throttling back, but I still find the high revs instantly and consistently a bit off putting, so have never tried to see just how fast I can get to. I have never floored it as I round that first corner,  as the revs already reach 5K , so I am a bit of a coward I think! But the 2 ltr is not to shabby compared to my old 2ltr turbo, if you can get used to the high revs and smooth constant acceleration. I have had an astonished BMW driver zoom by with disgust that a Corolla burnt them off from the lights, but I am happy to end the madness at that point....

Heh, I don't mind revving the engine. I've been driving CVT equipped cars for a long time now (my first was a Honda Jazz Sport) and I took the view that Honda make damn' good engines and the ECU won't let me do anything bad. If I want to shift I just jam the pedal to the floor (past the 'detent' point) and hang on :)

But you can easily lose traction turning onto that stretch. And in any case that part of the roundabout is just badly designed and poorly driven. It's difficult to stay in your lane simply because of the path they take so you have to watch out for people in lane one cutting across the line into lane two and the worst offenders who use lane 3 then cut into 2 either because they don't care or because they aren't paying attention.

I don't know if you've heard but the truck stop between the Daventry road and the M40 has been given the go-ahead. So now we're going to have to watch out for HGVs coming down the Daventry road. I hope they put traffic lights on that entrance to the roundabout because as it stands I can see HGVs just pulling out and blocking the roundabout while they wait for the existing lights.

 

[OXYGEN]

15 hours ago, Catlover said:

Oxygen, in your old Leon, did you ever do 0-100kph in 7.7 secs?

One-two times when I first got it, I have tried acceleration from 0. The first time I did it in Sport mode on a empty but now very wide road, I got seriously scared...

But this is not the point. Those are the measurements that automakers provide and this is what I use for the comparison. What I really compare is the feel of acceleration. But since it is highly subjective, I try somehow to make the connection to the real measurements.

So in the Leon, if you start with kickdown on power mode (or just only sport mode for the DSG) or start the overtaking from lets say 45-50mph, the feeling is like "oh, sh*t" and you are compressed at the backrest. And you have multiple opportunities to do the overtaking as it does not require longer gap in the oncoming traffic (you don't need so much time to be in the other lane...)

While in the Corolla in Power mode and with kickdown, the feeling is "well, ok, we're accelerating kinda fast" with just a slight pressure to the backrest. So I feel that in a similar overtaking situation, I will need more time/distance with the Corolla and therefore I do not feel so confident. There were already such situations where I have decided not to try overtaking with the Corolla, but would do it with no danger or fear with the Leon.

Probably better measurement would be flexibility of the cars from 80-120km/h or 40-80. But this data is rarely provided for non-sports cars...

I hope this will  explain better. Or it's just me that got used to the "unusually" fast Leon and now not impressed with the "normally" fast Corolla. And I got mislead by the specs and my assumption that a 0.3 seconds difference should not be so much noticeable...

[Gerg]

I don't have any answers to your questions, but I'm happy to chuck in some suggestions off the top of my head:-

Were you the original owner of the Leon?  Could it have been re-mapped by the previous owner, making it more rapid than standard?

Some owners judge the VAG horsepower rating to be quite conservative, could the Leon EA888 make more than the claimed power, it certainly has a good reputation for smooth, energetic power delivery.  (Just don't mention the oil control rings or the camchain tensioners...)

Although the Toyota eCVT has an infinite number of 'ratios', has Toyota limited in software the lower gear limit for some technical limitation in the planetary gears, so the Hyundai can pull a lower bottom gear?

The Ioniq electric motor is probably easier to cool as it is a much larger diameter, is there an potential cooling problem with the Toyota's electric motor as it is small and compact, rather than wide and thin?  Perhaps on account of this Hyundai can use an 'overboost' operation on the electric motor without fear of damage?

The Hyundai electric motor runs at engine speed, so keeping it at a safe rotational speed is easy, but the eCVT has defined maximum MG speeds that could easily be exceeded without software control.  To achieve a safe MG rpm, but still deliver a fast road speed under electric power, perhaps the eCVT has some internal gear ratios which are optimised to a faster (road speed) EV operation, rather than acceleration.  The Ioniq is not bound by such criteria with its dual clutch gearbox. 

Perhaps Toyota are running with larger engineering 'safety margins' to maximise engine and transmission life, the Hyundai is a bit of an unknown in that area...  Although their reputation is good, of course.

[nielshm]

22 hours ago, OXYGEN said:

One-two times when I first got it, I have tried acceleration from 0. The first time I did it in Sport mode on a empty but now very wide road, I got seriously scared...

But this is not the point. Those are the measurements that automakers provide and this is what I use for the comparison. What I really compare is the feel of acceleration. But since it is highly subjective, I try somehow to make the connection to the real measurements.

So in the Leon, if you start with kickdown on power mode (or just only sport mode for the DSG) or start the overtaking from lets say 45-50mph, the feeling is like "oh, sh*t" and you are compressed at the backrest. And you have multiple opportunities to do the overtaking as it does not require longer gap in the oncoming traffic (you don't need so much time to be in the other lane...)

While in the Corolla in Power mode and with kickdown, the feeling is "well, ok, we're accelerating kinda fast" with just a slight pressure to the backrest. So I feel that in a similar overtaking situation, I will need more time/distance with the Corolla and therefore I do not feel so confident. There were already such situations where I have decided not to try overtaking with the Corolla, but would do it with no danger or fear with the Leon.

Probably better measurement would be flexibility of the cars from 80-120km/h or 40-80. But this data is rarely provided for non-sports cars...

I hope this will  explain better. Or it's just me that got used to the "unusually" fast Leon and now not impressed with the "normally" fast Corolla. And I got mislead by the specs and my assumption that a 0.3 seconds difference should not be so much noticeable...

With my old manually stick shift Skoada Octavia, a really fast overtake would be something like ...shifting into 3. gear....3500 revs.....wait for it.... and BAM!! - Pedal to the metal. 

I got the feeling of beeing prepared, engine sound going up - but the Corolla is not like that. Maybe the manually override using paddels can help getting the old feeling back?

[OXYGEN]

18 hours ago, Gerg said:

I don't have any answers to your questions, but I'm happy to chuck in some suggestions off the top of my head:-

Were you the original owner of the Leon?  Could it have been re-mapped by the previous owner, making it more rapid than standard?

Some owners judge the VAG horsepower rating to be quite conservative, could the Leon EA888 make more than the claimed power, it certainly has a good reputation for smooth, energetic power delivery.  (Just don't mention the oil control rings or the camchain tensioners...)

Although the Toyota eCVT has an infinite number of 'ratios', has Toyota limited in software the lower gear limit for some technical limitation in the planetary gears, so the Hyundai can pull a lower bottom gear?

The Ioniq electric motor is probably easier to cool as it is a much larger diameter, is there an potential cooling problem with the Toyota's electric motor as it is small and compact, rather than wide and thin?  Perhaps on account of this Hyundai can use an 'overboost' operation on the electric motor without fear of damage?

The Hyundai electric motor runs at engine speed, so keeping it at a safe rotational speed is easy, but the eCVT has defined maximum MG speeds that could easily be exceeded without software control.  To achieve a safe MG rpm, but still deliver a fast road speed under electric power, perhaps the eCVT has some internal gear ratios which are optimised to a faster (road speed) EV operation, rather than acceleration.  The Ioniq is not bound by such criteria with its dual clutch gearbox. 

Perhaps Toyota are running with larger engineering 'safety margins' to maximise engine and transmission life, the Hyundai is a bit of an unknown in that area...  Although their reputation is good, of course.

Yes, I was the first owner of the Leon and because of warranty, there were no modifications.

 I just red some articles from the presentations of the new 2.0 hybrid when it came out. And now I understand. They have written it as if they replied to my topic and questions. 🙂

It is written, that 2.0 was developed for the European market, where people are used to turbo petrol engines like 1.4/1.5TSI and don’t like the 1.8...

So they admit 1.8 is worse than these. And say the 2.0 is competing with 1.4/1.5...

And I dare to compare it with 1.8TSI.... 😁

[TonyHSD]

That’s an interesting reed, at the the end if you race both cars they will be very similar results, and the difference in acceleration may well been only a feeling. Back in the days early 2000 there were discussions about VAG cars between turbo diesel and turbo petrol, as some said that the diesels are faster on acceleration, perhaps was just a wrong feel from the low end torque. I agreed though, in hybrids the punch from turbo is missing obviously, but if you pay attention to the speedo you can see that speed builds up quickly, and yes traction Battery charge will impact the acceleration because the car uses both petrol and electric power together. You can empty the Battery on purpose and try to accelerate uphill, then you feel like driving a fully loaded with passengers Kia Picanto 1.1 automatic with aircon on. , it’s just not going 👌😊👍

[Platy]

The acceleration in the CVT powertrain is fairly linear. In a DSG VAG turbo (or any other non-CVT car, I guess), it is not. During the shifts in the DSG you will experience a brief but powerful acceleration followed by a more modest one. During the powerful phase you get the feeling of being pushed back in the seat in a way you don't feel in the 2.0 CVT. Though in the end, the 0-60 may be identical.

[Cjohnston1982]

I found the acceleration levels a little unpredictable in the 2.0 depending on the Battery levels and maybe other factors. Some days it’s quite satisfying but sometimes I feel like I’m not quite getting the full deal

[OXYGEN]

Yes, this is also my concern - that we have the top acceleration/torque/power only above certain level of the Battery.

And if it is below that level, we have much worse numbers.

Which means we are kind of lied what the car specs are...as they are achievable in specific circumstances only ...

This is not the case with traditional car - despite how full the tank is, it will have the same performance...

 

[nielshm]

The engine output is 152 horsepower, so even without Battery, acceleration should be resonable. Of course, revs need to be high, but 0 to 62 mph should be less than 10 sec. 

But lets try to make some timed accelerstions, and compare the results? 

[Catlover]

11 hours ago, OXYGEN said:

Yes, this is also my concern - that we have the top acceleration/torque/power only above certain level of the battery.

And if it is below that level, we have much worse numbers.

Which means we are kind of lied what the car specs are...as they are achievable in specific circumstances only ...

This is not the case with traditional car - despite how full the tank is, it will have the same performance...

 

Was it ever said a driver would get full performance all the time? It’s the nature of a hybrid vehicle. F1 race cars dont deliver full performance the whole of the race, they depend on hybrid batteries for full performance too, have fans been lied to?  
Re the comment about “traditional cars”......”it will have same performance”. Are you sure??. Put Billy Bunter in the driving seat together with a full tank of fuel...will the car really get to 0-60 in the same time as with Slim Suzy driving and only a gallon of fuel?

[gadi]

Nearly all Toyota Direct Shift CVTs (Hybrid and non-Hybrid) will drop the revs as soon as acceleration is stopped for efficiency reasons.

The manual gear selection is supposed to be used in these situations to keep the revs up. My way to get a really good acceleration when overtaking is to downshift really quickly with the paddle shifts before overtaking, then as soon as I put my foot down to hold the right paddle which switches it back to auto after a few seconds. It gives a really nice acceleration feeling and there's no dull acceleration as the electric motor is giving a boost instead of filling in for the engine using more electric power whilst the engine builds up its revs.

Took me nearly a year of having the car to figure this out and it has helped me not get embarrassed when someone is trying to keep up with me or be annoying!

I've been told I drive with my pedal practically glued to the floor and never had issues with my Battery being low and not being able to accelerate to 62mph in under 8 seconds, the only time acceleration has been limited is when I was low on fuel and had about 15 miles cruising range left. Toyota use 0-100km/h (0-62mph) with VAG generally using 0-60mph which is why the results can't be compared directly especially when doing split second timings.

I also remember reading that the hybrid 2.0 engine (M20A-FXS) is limited to 152bhp when it is combined with electric power, however it is able to put out 178bhp alone itself. In other countries the Corolla is sold with just the 2.0 engine (M20A-FKS) with 178hp.

[Yugguy1970]

You can only be "embarrassed" by another car's performance if you let yourself be.  

I gave up caring about that sort of thing about 30 years ago.

[AndrueC]

Yah, it's a pointless measure. I find that can get about just fine in my 1.8 without even pushing the ECO gauge into the PWR region. The only vehicles I occasionally hold up are of the rabid BMW and Audio ilk. I have never subscribed to the viewpoint that drivers need more power. I maintain that 100bhp is more then enough for anyone except HGV drivers 🙂

Instead of demanding more power, learn how to drive 

[Cyker]

Yeah peak HP figures are meaningless in normal driving - My Mk1 'only' had 74HP but could out drag anything up a hill, while my Mk2 had 100HP but could be out-dragged by a christmas panto...

I always try to look at the torque curves - The more it has low down, the nicer the car will be to drive; If it's all at the top the car will be great on a track but be horrible on the road...

 

[Yugguy1970]

I like a bit of poke so I can get up that sliproad fully loaded and join the motorway at a decent speed.  

I've had fast hot hatches in the past and my favourite roads were always deserted early morning twisties.

[Cyker]

Me too - I can't go back now that I've driven a turbo-diesel with all that low-end pull! Luckily the Mk4 has that in spades!  

I love that the engine has the grunt and is a bit growly when pushed, but when you settle down to cruise it backs off, usually hovering around a quiet 2k rpm, if it's even on at all!  

Toyota really did a superlative job with the drivetrain on this one!