Stop - Start System

[seraphim666]

Hello all,

When I took deliver of my 2015 Toyota Auris Ionic 1.4D-4D, the “Stop - Start” system worked fine. However, for no apparent reason, it stopped working.

I have checked all the criteria that is required for it to work, I.e. full Battery, current load on the Battery, engine warmed up etc, etc. when trying to engage it, but no joy.

Toyota took it in and did a full diagnostic tests on the car and cleared down fault codes,  saying the “Stop - Start” was now fine. I have taken the car out again today and, after ensuring all the criteria mentioned previously was adhered to, I still can’t get it to engage.

Given the diagnostic faults have been cleared, would the continued problem suggest some kind of mechanical fault rather than software, would anyone know?

Thank you in advance of your replies.

[Steve 10]

Did the garage tell you the fault codes present ? or give any indication of why the stop-start system malfunctioned ?

[seraphim666]

No, just a work sheet saying “Cleared down vehicle fault codes. Carried out mast reset and all ok”

[Steve 10]

The forum has some threads on Toyota's stop-start system issues. So many conditions are involved, low outside temperature and less than 75% Battery charge will prevent it operating. If no warning lights show, it may just be a quirk of the system.

[seraphim666]

11 minutes ago, Steve 10 said:

The forum has some threads on Toyota's stop-start system issues. So many conditions are involved, low outside temperature and less than 75% battery charge will prevent it operating. If no warning lights show, it may just be a quirk of the system.

I don’t see any warning lights on the dash. I am aware of the conditions that may effect the operation and I believe they aren’t effecting the operation, but I can’t be 100% certain. I’ll see if I can find the thread you refer to.
 

Thank you for the time and trouble you’ve gone to in replying. 

[Mooly]

I've commented on the Stop/Start several times (2010 Auris) and only recently noticed something that seems illogical... and yet it happens. I can drive for 20, 30, 40 minutes... sometimes an hour and not once does it cut in. However I've noticed several times that if I turn the key off myself at junctions etc and restart it manually then the stop start seems to cut in and start working as expected a short while later. 

It's illogical because what I am doing can only drain the Battery more, and yet the Stop/Start decides its OK  to cut in. None of the other outside or external factors change. I gave up wondering a long time ago. Its a flawed system that only has purpose in controlled testing (emissions ratings) and is pretty much worthless in real life situations.     

 

[seraphim666]

28 minutes ago, Mooly said:

I've commented on the Stop/Start several times (2010 Auris) and only recently noticed something that seems illogical... and yet it happens. I can drive for 20, 30, 40 minutes... sometimes an hour and not once does it cut in. However I've noticed several times that if I turn the key off myself at junctions etc and restart it manually then the stop start seems to cut in and start working as expected a short while later. 

It's illogical because what I am doing can only drain the battery more, and yet the Stop/Start decides its OK  to cut in. None of the other outside or external factors change. I gave up wondering a long time ago. Its a flawed system that only has purpose in controlled testing (emissions ratings) and is pretty much worthless in real life situations.     

 

Hello Mooly, Thank you for sharing your experience with the Stop / Start system with me. As a new owner of an Auris and my first experience with Toyota, your input is very much appreciated. It is interesting to read the vagaries of the Stop / Start system and I will certainly try your suggested workaround.

I wonder if you would mind advising me on the following please? I am assuming (normally a foolish thing to do I know) that the ECO and ECO ODO displays that are included on the display window of the dashboard cluster and are reached by using the "DISP" control on the steering wheel, are they integral to the Stop / Start system would you know?

Both displays currently read a series of "0's", but when I first took delivery of the car, and the Stop / Start worked, I'm sure there were positive numbers in these displays, hence my assumption. So.are ECO and ECO ODO part of the Stop / Start System?

Thank you again

[Mooly]

From memory they are simply time accumulations of the total time the engine has been stopped in ECO mode for one of the values while the other shows time in ECO mode just for the current journey. So you might eventually see several hours clocked up on one and just a few minutes on the other. You can reset them yourself as far as I recall just by holding the button in.

They also all reset to zero if for example you disconnect the Battery and presumably with whatever reset Toyota did.

 

Some older threads from when mine was nearly new:

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/109437-stopstart-technology-in-practice-and-first-mpg-check/?tab=comments#comment-993313

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/111738-unexplained-133-stop-start-behaviour-anyone-else-notice-this/?tab=comments#comment-1011234

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/186724-stop-start/?do=findComment&comment=1491474

 

[seraphim666]

2 hours ago, Mooly said:

From memory they are simply time accumulations of the total time the engine has been stopped in ECO mode for one of the values while the other shows time in ECO mode just for the current journey. So you might eventually see several hours clocked up on one and just a few minutes on the other. You can reset them yourself as far as I recall just by holding the button in.

They also all reset to zero if for example you disconnect the battery and presumably with whatever reset Toyota did.

 

Some older threads from when mine was nearly new:

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/109437-stopstart-technology-in-practice-and-first-mpg-check/?tab=comments#comment-993313

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/111738-unexplained-133-stop-start-behaviour-anyone-else-notice-this/?tab=comments#comment-1011234

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/186724-stop-start/?do=findComment&comment=1491474

 

Hi again Mooly,

Thank you again for all the feedback and the links you have provided.

I have started going through the links, reading each post and extracting salient points that refer to the Stop / Start and any suggested courses of action that may help alleviate the problem.

However, from my experience so far and your experiences over the years, I'm resigned to the fact, that I will have to live with the  issue and not keep taking the car back to Toyota every week as I will never be able to eradicate the problem totally. It doesn't diminish my love for  my new (well new to me) Auris. ☺️   

[flash22]

Its the weather and a mix of the heater and a/c use, also higher electrical load, the voltage may be ok but other items maybe pulling too much current for the system to meet its requirements

 

The Nissan system has a very long list and is very complex (this is a system i have knowledge of)

Toyota should have a technical info on the S/S system

[seraphim666]

On 1/31/2020 at 5:13 PM, flash22 said:

Its the weather and a mix of the heater and a/c use, also higher electrical load, the voltage may be ok but other items maybe pulling too much current for the system to meet its requirements

 

The Nissan system has a very long list and is very complex (this is a system i have knowledge of)

Toyota should have a technical info on the S/S system

Hello flash22,

Thank you for the input. I've tried driving the car with the very minimum electrical load, no heating / aircon, media, navigation, no headlights, no usb plugged in, no auxiliary plugged in, but still no joy. I guess when summer eventually arrives, Stop / Start might come out and play. 

Now that I've read the many posts on the inconsistencies of the Stop / Start system on the Toyota Auris, I'm a bit more relaxed about it and I'm sure when I've owned the car a few more months, I probably won't give the system a second though, I hope.  

[flash22]

Here is a generic Lexus/Toyota operating conditions for the stop start systems

Operating Conditions at Idling Stop and Engine Restart
 

1. The engine may stop if all of the following conditions are detected. However, there are cases which may not be applicable based on the vehicle condition or the surrounding environment:
    

   Operating Conditions at Idling Stop 

   Item	Condition
   Engine Coolant Temperature	40°C to 105°C (104°F to 221°F)
   ATF Temperature	25°C to 112°C (77°F to 233.6°F)
   Driver's Door	The driver's door is closed and 3 seconds or more have elapsed.
   Brake Booster Vacuum	Sufficient brake booster vacuum
   Brake Master Cylinder Pressure	1.1 MPa or higher (varies depending on the road grade)
   Stop and Start System Cancel Switch	Off condition
   Road Gradient	-8° to 8°
   Vehicle Speed	The vehicle speed changes from a constant speed to 0 km/h.
   Engine Speed	1200 r/min or less
   Accelerator Pedal	The accelerator pedal is not depressed.
   Shift Lever Position	P*1 or D
   Drive Mode Select	NORMAL or ECO mode
   SNOW Mode	Off condition
   Driver's Seat Belt	3 seconds or more elapse after the seat belt is fastened.
   Engine Hood	The engine hood is closed and 3 seconds or more have elapsed.
   Battery Voltage	8.08 V or more at engine start
   Battery Temperature	-10°C to 70°C (14°F to 158°F)*2
   Battery Integrated Current*3	When the integrated current value meets any of the following conditions: -15444 A-sec or more: Status of Battery Charge Control is Charge Control Coordination Mode, Stop and Start Standalone Mode or Low Temperature Mode and battery fluid temperature is between 3°C (37.4°F) and 11°C (51.8°F)*4 -4554 A-sec or more: Status of Battery Charge Control is Low Temperature Mode and battery fluid temperature is between -1°C (30.2°F) and under 3°C (37.4°F) *5 0 A-sec or more: Status of Battery Charge Control is Stop and Start Restriction Mode or Temperature High/Low Mode*6
   Air Conditioning	The cooling, heating and defrost functions are not operating.
   ECU Learning	Completed
   Ambient Temperature	-5°C (23°F) or more
   Steering Operation	Not operated
   Brake Control System	The brake control system is not malfunctioning and the ABS function is not operating.

    

    

   HINT:

    

   *1: If an idling stop persists for 2 seconds or more with the shift lever in D, idling stop control continues to operate after the shift lever is moved from D to P.

    

   *2: When the battery temperature becomes -15°C or lower or 75°C or higher, control is prohibited. After control is prohibited and the battery temperature rises to -10°C or higher or falls to 70°C or lower, control is performed.
   *3: Regarding the Battery Integrated Current in the stop and start system, the engine stop and start ECU switches the system control mode (stop and start system control permitted/prohibited) based on the battery condition (charge/discharge condition) to protect the battery and to ensure stable engine restarting performance. The battery charge-discharge condition is determined from the integrated current value calculated from the battery state sensor assembly signal. The integrated current value is obtained by multiplying the current (ampere) detected by the battery state sensor assembly by the time (seconds), and is expressed in the unit A-sec. This can be measured by the Global TechStream (GTS). The engine stop and start ECU determines the power charge based on the integrated current value and prohibits stop and start system control if the value is below the threshold, because the battery might not be able to start the engine. The threshold varies according to the battery temperature and battery charge condition.
   *4: After the integrated current value becomes -16434 A-sec or less, in order to charge the battery, control is prohibited until the value becomes -15444 A-sec or more.
   *5: After the integrated current value becomes -5544 A-sec or less, in order to charge the battery, control is prohibited until the value becomes -4554 A-sec or more.
   *6: After the integrated current value becomes -990 A-sec or less, in order to charge the battery, control is prohibited until the value becomes 0 A-sec or more.

    

2. The engine will restart if any of these conditions are detected. However, there are cases which may not be applicable based on the vehicle condition or the surrounding environment:
    

   Operating Conditions at Engine Restart 

   Item	Condition
   Accelerator Pedal	The accelerator pedal is depressed.
   Brake Pedal	The brake pedal is released.*1
   Stop and Start System Cancel Switch	The stop and start system cancel switch is turned on.
   Driver's Seat Belt	The driver's seat belt is unfastened.
   Driver's Door	The driver's door is opened.
   Shift Lever	The shift lever is moved from P or D to another position.
   Drive Mode Select	The drive mode is changed from NORMAL or ECO mode to another mode.
   SNOW Mode	The SNOW mode is on.
   Steering Operation	The steering wheel is operated.
   Air Conditioning	When the air conditioning is on and a timer in the air conditioning amplifier assembly completes.
   	The blower function is turned on with the engine coolant temperature low. Otherwise, a timer in the engine stop and start ECU completes.
   	The A/C switch or defroster mode switch is turned on.
   Brake Booster Vacuum	Insufficient brake booster vacuum
   Vehicle Speed	A vehicle speed signal is input.
   Battery	The battery voltage is less than 11.4 V. The battery integrated current drops to below the threshold value.
   Engine Hood	The engine hood is opened.*2
   Brake Control System	The skid control ECU detects a malfunction in the brake control system.

    

[seraphim666]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

Here is a generic Lexus/Toyota operating conditions for the stop start systems

Operating Conditions at Idling Stop and Engine Restart
 

1. The engine may stop if all of the following conditions are detected. However, there are cases which may not be applicable based on the vehicle condition or the surrounding environment:
    

   Operating Conditions at Idling Stop 

   Item	Condition
   Engine Coolant Temperature	40°C to 105°C (104°F to 221°F)
   ATF Temperature	25°C to 112°C (77°F to 233.6°F)
   Driver's Door	The driver's door is closed and 3 seconds or more have elapsed.
   Brake Booster Vacuum	Sufficient brake booster vacuum
   Brake Master Cylinder Pressure	1.1 MPa or higher (varies depending on the road grade)
   Stop and Start System Cancel Switch	Off condition
   Road Gradient	-8° to 8°
   Vehicle Speed	The vehicle speed changes from a constant speed to 0 km/h.
   Engine Speed	1200 r/min or less
   Accelerator Pedal	The accelerator pedal is not depressed.
   Shift Lever Position	P*1 or D
   Drive Mode Select	NORMAL or ECO mode
   SNOW Mode	Off condition
   Driver's Seat Belt	3 seconds or more elapse after the seat belt is fastened.
   Engine Hood	The engine hood is closed and 3 seconds or more have elapsed.
   Battery Voltage	8.08 V or more at engine start
   Battery Temperature	-10°C to 70°C (14°F to 158°F)*2
   Battery Integrated Current*3	When the integrated current value meets any of the following conditions: -15444 A-sec or more: Status of Battery Charge Control is Charge Control Coordination Mode, Stop and Start Standalone Mode or Low Temperature Mode and battery fluid temperature is between 3°C (37.4°F) and 11°C (51.8°F)*4 -4554 A-sec or more: Status of Battery Charge Control is Low Temperature Mode and battery fluid temperature is between -1°C (30.2°F) and under 3°C (37.4°F) *5 0 A-sec or more: Status of Battery Charge Control is Stop and Start Restriction Mode or Temperature High/Low Mode*6
   Air Conditioning	The cooling, heating and defrost functions are not operating.
   ECU Learning	Completed
   Ambient Temperature	-5°C (23°F) or more
   Steering Operation	Not operated
   Brake Control System	The brake control system is not malfunctioning and the ABS function is not operating.

    

    

   HINT:

    

   *1: If an idling stop persists for 2 seconds or more with the shift lever in D, idling stop control continues to operate after the shift lever is moved from D to P.

    

   *2: When the battery temperature becomes -15°C or lower or 75°C or higher, control is prohibited. After control is prohibited and the battery temperature rises to -10°C or higher or falls to 70°C or lower, control is performed.
   *3: Regarding the Battery Integrated Current in the stop and start system, the engine stop and start ECU switches the system control mode (stop and start system control permitted/prohibited) based on the battery condition (charge/discharge condition) to protect the battery and to ensure stable engine restarting performance. The battery charge-discharge condition is determined from the integrated current value calculated from the battery state sensor assembly signal. The integrated current value is obtained by multiplying the current (ampere) detected by the battery state sensor assembly by the time (seconds), and is expressed in the unit A-sec. This can be measured by the Global TechStream (GTS). The engine stop and start ECU determines the power charge based on the integrated current value and prohibits stop and start system control if the value is below the threshold, because the battery might not be able to start the engine. The threshold varies according to the battery temperature and battery charge condition.
   *4: After the integrated current value becomes -16434 A-sec or less, in order to charge the battery, control is prohibited until the value becomes -15444 A-sec or more.
   *5: After the integrated current value becomes -5544 A-sec or less, in order to charge the battery, control is prohibited until the value becomes -4554 A-sec or more.
   *6: After the integrated current value becomes -990 A-sec or less, in order to charge the battery, control is prohibited until the value becomes 0 A-sec or more.

    

2. The engine will restart if any of these conditions are detected. However, there are cases which may not be applicable based on the vehicle condition or the surrounding environment:
    

   Operating Conditions at Engine Restart 

   Item	Condition
   Accelerator Pedal	The accelerator pedal is depressed.
   Brake Pedal	The brake pedal is released.*1
   Stop and Start System Cancel Switch	The stop and start system cancel switch is turned on.
   Driver's Seat Belt	The driver's seat belt is unfastened.
   Driver's Door	The driver's door is opened.
   Shift Lever	The shift lever is moved from P or D to another position.
   Drive Mode Select	The drive mode is changed from NORMAL or ECO mode to another mode.
   SNOW Mode	The SNOW mode is on.
   Steering Operation	The steering wheel is operated.
   Air Conditioning	When the air conditioning is on and a timer in the air conditioning amplifier assembly completes.
   	The blower function is turned on with the engine coolant temperature low. Otherwise, a timer in the engine stop and start ECU completes.
   	The A/C switch or defroster mode switch is turned on.
   Brake Booster Vacuum	Insufficient brake booster vacuum
   Vehicle Speed	A vehicle speed signal is input.
   Battery	The battery voltage is less than 11.4 V. The battery integrated current drops to below the threshold value.
   Engine Hood	The engine hood is opened.*2
   Brake Control System	The skid control ECU detects a malfunction in the brake control system.

    

Thank you flash22 for the detailed information

[Mooly]

On two occasions over the last few days (when I remembered) I have switched off the engine at traffic lights, just the once. Up to the point of switching off the stop/start was non operational. Each time after doing this single restart it has cut in from that point onwards for the rest of the journey. That's more than coincidence and to me blows the theory of the system following some complicated set of algorithms. To me its just buggy and poorly implemented firmware/software.  

[seraphim666]

Well, I’ve had my Auris for nearly two months and I’ve been on short trips and long journeys and I’ve tried Mooly’s suggestion of turning the engine off when stopped and then restarting, but I can’t get Stop / Start to work.

It’s been back to Toyota, who cleared all the codes down and still nothing. Would the fact it’s not working show up on their diagnostics would anyone know.

The more I realise I can’t have it the more I want to have it.

Any other suggestions would be most welcome.

[HS78]

I have stop/start fitted to my auris. I always switch it off manually before I move off on a journey. I feel that the amount of fuel it saves would be so minimal on my journeys that I don't require it. 

I've also considered that it puts additional wear and tear on the starter motor and flywheel that it would't otherwise receive. 

Ask someone from Toyota to accompany you on a test drive and hopefully they will see that your system is not operating to your expectations. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

An article from the RAC published 8 days ago:  https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/road-safety/stop-start-engines-and-engine-idling-the-law/

[seraphim666]

Hello HS78 and Frostyballs,

Thank you each for your response.

It appears the science supports Stop / Start benefits, but I can also understand turning it off if you are only doing short journeys.

However, I don’t have a choice, it just doesn’t work on my car for some reason and I would like to know why.

Someone else has started a similar thread In this forum referring to the cars Battery as a potential problem and I have left a question there. So, hopefully, I will get to the bottom it

Thank you both again