Auris hybrid flat battery

[Saxmaniac]

22 hours ago, ziauris said:

OK then, a non-hybrid VVTi Toyota engine will explode at 

Toyota in general seems to have a better chance of lasting than most makes and I would certainly say to get the simplest machine to do the job. However modern tightening emissions laws are forcing manufacturers to make more complex cars with more tricky technology. So diesels got DPFs, more cars are getting direct injection, turbos whatever. The Toyota hybrids are proven over many years and whatever issues there are, are known. Also, the other types of vehicle still have alternators, clutches, belts, skimpy camchains, manual or auto boxes stuffed full of bits so on balance I'd go for the hybrid. Also, there's the extra mpgs to consider,  I didn't want to go below 50mpg overall and Diesels are out of the question. 

[Davidhee58]

On 5/23/2020 at 3:08 PM, Gerg said:

You are welcome!

The CTEK MXS5000 (£65 ish) is very popular, it seems very well made, Swedish design, made in China.

Just last week, a poster recommended an Amazon supplied 'Maypole' branded one at around about  £30, that would do a broadly similar job.  Maypole, if I remember correctly, have been making/selling car accessories for decades. The Amazon reviews were quite good, but afraid I don't recall the exact model.  It's on this forum, somewhere!

If you can wait until they come back into store (every 4 to 6 months, usually), then Lidl sell/sold one for £13.99, their 'Ultimate Speed' brand, which was very decent value for money and has a built in voltmeter, but do you want to wait?  That one had a three year guarantee as well, if you kept the receipt.

None of these will charge faster than the others, but if there was a mains glitch, the CTEK will resume afterwards by itself, The Lidl will need it's 'mode' button pressing again, but this is a small point.

I have used the under bonnet jump-start point to charge our car, I am not aware of any risk with using this.  Perhaps someone else has some thoughts on this - I would be interested to hear.  Disconnect the charger before you attempt to start the car though!

There are some horror stories about folk using their Toyota hybrids to jump start other people's cars, sometimes expensive electronic damage follows, best to politely decline to do so.

Your 12v battery is covered by your 5 year Toyota warranty, but some dealers charge a fee to find out if they are actually defective to the Toyota defined standard, sometimes this is 1/2 an hour's labour, but at 4 years yours should still be good.

Hi Gerg, just read your post and it is very useful for me, as recently the 12v Battery on my 2017 Toyota Auris hybrid was flat and my car was totally dead. followed your suggestion, I bought a Maypole smart charger and tried to on my car. The resting voltage of my car Battery was about 11.82v before charging, according to the Toyota owner manual, I disconnected the Battery negative terminal and then connected the charger to the battery (+>>+; - >> -), and selected the AGM mode, the Maypole charger looked working and I could see the displayed voltage was slowly increasing. After about 6 hrs charging, when the charge reached >90% and the charger voltage was 15.1v (the max should be 14.8v for AGM as the charge instruction says), then charger red LED change to green, the voltage on the charger was dropped to 12.7v without any error. I thought the battery was fully charged, but actually voltage reading from my Fluke multimeter was 12.5v, and next morning I checked the battery again and found the battery voltage was nearly same as before (11.87v), I suspect the Maypole charger didn't work at all,  or maybe my battery was dead? anyway I booked my car in at the nearby Toyota centre and will bring my car there to charge overnight, and was told if the battery charging failed, then the battery needs to be replaced. Regarding the Toyota 5 years warranty, the Toyota centre told me the 12v battery is not included, I have to pay the cost for the replacement.

It's interesting you can use the jump-start point to charge your car, i thought of it, as in this way i may not need to disconnect the battery negative terminal, which triggers the alarm. I asked a person in the Toyota centre, he didn't recommend to use the jump-start way for charging, if it can be used for jump-start, I don't understand what risk it is to use it for charging the battery. 

[Gerg]

It's always good for a post to have been found useful!

With regards to your 12v Battery warranty - perhaps something has changed recently, but I have never heard of someone from a Toyota dealer saying that the 12v Battery is not covered by their 5 year warranty.(Edit: apart from the poster earlier in this very thread!)  I would look to ring or visit a different Toyota dealer or franchise to get this confirmed.  Up until a year or so ago, the fixed 'menu' price for any Auris Battery was £125 btw, but the Toyota spares prices seem to go up in January, so who knows the current price?  But the diagnosis cost, if it does not fail the Toyota test, is 1/2 an hours labour cost, note!

Your battery is a small 35Ah capacity, and the charge rate recommended by Yuasa/GS for an AGM is 10% of the rated capacity, so around 3.5 amps., which the Maypole charger probably doesn't indicate when in use, they often don't.  If the battery has been left discharged then that will shorten its life, how much depending on how long it was left flat, and how often.  The batteries in our cars are coming up to 8 years old, just as an idea of their potential life. 

The quiescent (parisitic) current when the car is parked is 50mA (0.050A) after 20 minutes of being left alone, if it is higher than this then something is wrong. e.g. Dashcam still drawing power, ignition key stored very close to car(with keyless entry) which the car detects; and so the computers don't go into low-power sleep mode, etc. This current is a bind to measure current in this situation with a conventional DVM, I use a clamp-on current meter which is effortless by comparison (a UNI-T 210E).  I don't know of an easy way with a conventional DVM.

Your alarm problem that you have described earlier is not one I have read about, and certainly not seen myself.  I've only worked on a couple of pre-facelift Auris hybrids, nothing like that has ever happened when I have disconnected the battery (which is plenty of times!).  I wonder if that could be tied-in to your rapid 12v battery discharge??

With regards the manual's 'disconnecting the 12v battery when charging' recommendation, and not using the 'jump start' point, I would think that Toyota are cautious about connecting a piece of equipment of unknown provenance (the owner's battery charger) onto the potentially sensitive electrics of a car that they are guaranteeing. If, for instance, the charger went haywire and spiked loads of volts into the cars wiring, who would be taking responsibility?.  When some of these 'smart' chargers are in 'recondition' mode, their voltages deliberately spike at 15.8 volts or higher on some models, is this a problem?  I'd like to hear other people's thoughts.

Edit: I've just realised I had posted much of this earlier in this thread.  Oh, well....

[Davidhee58]

23 hours ago, Gerg said:

It's always good for a post to have been found useful!

With regards to your 12v battery warranty - perhaps something has changed recently, but I have never heard of someone from a Toyota dealer saying that the 12v battery is not covered by their 5 year warranty.(Edit: apart from the poster earlier in this very thread!)  I would look to ring or visit a different Toyota dealer or franchise to get this confirmed.  Up until a year or so ago, the fixed 'menu' price for any Auris battery was £125 btw, but the Toyota spares prices seem to go up in January, so who knows the current price?  But the diagnosis cost, if it does not fail the Toyota test, is 1/2 an hours labour cost, note!

Your battery is a small 35Ah capacity, and the charge rate recommended by Yuasa/GS for an AGM is 10% of the rated capacity, so around 3.5 amps., which the Maypole charger probably doesn't indicate when in use, they often don't.  If the battery has been left discharged then that will shorten its life, how much depending on how long it was left flat, and how often.  The batteries in our cars are coming up to 8 years old, just as an idea of their potential life. 

The quiescent (parisitic) current when the car is parked is 50mA (0.050A) after 20 minutes of being left alone, if it is higher than this then something is wrong. e.g. dashcam still drawing power, ignition key stored very close to car(with keyless entry) which the car detects; and so the computers don't go into low-power sleep mode, etc. This current is a bind to measure current in this situation with a conventional DVM, I use a clamp-on current meter which is effortless by comparison (a UNI-T 210E).  I don't know of an easy way with a conventional DVM.

Your alarm problem that you have described earlier is not one I have read about, and certainly not seen myself.  I've only worked on a couple of pre-facelift Auris hybrids, nothing like that has ever happened when I have disconnected the battery (which is plenty of times!).  I wonder if that could be tied-in to your rapid 12v battery discharge??

With regards the manual's 'disconnecting the 12v battery when charging' recommendation, and not using the 'jump start' point, I would think that Toyota are cautious about connecting a piece of equipment of unknown provenance (the owner's battery charger) onto the potentially sensitive electrics of a car that they are guaranteeing. If, for instance, the charger went haywire and spiked loads of volts into the cars wiring, who would be taking responsibility?.  When some of these 'smart' chargers are in 'recondition' mode, their voltages deliberately spike at 15.8 volts or higher on some models, is this a problem?  I'd like to hear other people's thoughts.

Edit: I've just realised I had posted much of this earlier in this thread.  Oh, well....

Hi Gerg, thank you very much for your advices, which are very helpful to me. Today I have spoken to another Toyota dealer,  over the phone conversation, they seem  quite friendly and advise  me to bring my car to there,  they will charge the car overnight for me, if my car can pass the charging test, the service is free, if the test is failed, then they need to call Toyota Headquarter to see if I am qualified for free Battery replacement. I think in the end of the day, they will blame me not driving the car enough and I may have to pay for the new Battery. I have own this car for almost 4 years now, and normally drove my car every weekend, Except 2020,  each year I left my car on the driveway for -4 weeks when I was away for holiday, I never had flat Battery issue. Unfortunately I wasn't given the details of the Toyota 5 years warranty when I bought the car, therefore it may be difficult to argue with them now, anyway £125 is not a big deal if they insist I have to pay.

Regarding the alarm, I looked the Toyota owner manual, which says disconnecting 12v battery is one of the situations which trigger the alarm, and the manual also says the alarm is automatically deactivated by unlocking the doors using the wireless remote control, I don't know why the alarm was triggered when I disconnected the battery negative terminal while the doors were unlocked. 

I got 2 issues with the Maypole charger, firstly, not as the instruction described, the charger couldn't automatically detect my battery, I needed to manually select the AGM mode, secondly, the charging voltage was not accurate (0.2v higher than the reading of Fluke multimeter), I was also quite worrying when the charging voltage was increasing to 15.1v. Considering I don't drive a lot, I think I do need a car battery charger, could you kindly recommend a decent but not too expensive charger to me? I usually use my car on the weekend, how often do I need to recharge my car? once per week  is enough? or it's better to keep the charger connecting to the battery when the car is parked on the driveway? your advices are very appreciated.

Davd

[FROSTYBALLS]

Could have a look at a solar Battery maintainer. In the following topic Parts-King has mentioned that the dealer he works for has a supply of such a maintainer - look within the topic for his post of 21st January @10.46am:

If you wish to contact Parts-King, send him a private message using the forum's messaging service.

[Gerg]

15 hours ago, Davidhee58 said:

to see if I am qualified for free battery replacement.

Hi, you may not have seen but, there are two people on the forum, one a moderator, who also actually work for Toyota main dealers (not local to you at all), that is 'Devon Aygo' and 'Parts-King'.  I think if the Battery warranty had changed  from 5 years, then they would have corrected posters, or similar, over time.  I think you should go to the dealer with the expectation that it will get changed, if their tester fails it.

 

15 hours ago, Davidhee58 said:

which says disconnecting 12v battery is one of the situations which trigger the alarm

I think your Auris, which is a few years newer than ours, and the face-lifted model, has a different alarm system.  So my experiences here are probably of no use to you.

 

15 hours ago, Davidhee58 said:

could you kindly recommend a decent but not too expensive charger to me?

The charger that most people report as having bought on this forum is the CTEK MXS 5.0, like this:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CTEK-MXS-5-0-Reconditions-Motorcycle/dp/B00FC42HAA

The owner's manual for this charger is here:-

https://www.ctek.com/storage/28170E5A4DF8DDE255F2544A55F5C421179A3398C557729443D3E9C908F0382E/d4c71f1fcf354b37bdfb3841d00adafd/pdf/media/01d8e64db81c4259bda89213323dad93/MXS_5.0-manual-low-UK-EN.pdf

Indeed, this charger, rebadged, is sold by Yuasa GS (who most likely made the Battery in your car) as their own model of Battery charger.  No one ever has anything bad to say about it.  It is Swedish designed, but made in China.  The price is reasonable - I think they have sold this in Costco in the past at a good price - are you a member?

I have a use for up to 4 battery chargers at one time (a long story), so I wouldn't want to buy 4 Ctek chargers - it would bankrupt me!  I find the Lidl chargers that sell for £12.99 to be good value, so I have a load of those. They last quite well, and if you lend it to a neighbour and it doesn't come back, then it doesn't end in tears.  But they are only on sale from time to time; when Lidl decide to sell motoring items, which is a problem when you want one now.

In your case, I think would look to get the Ctek at the cheapest price possible.

With regards keeping your battery charged, Toyota recommend this procedure, which you've probably seen already:-  

https://blog.toyota.co.uk/coronavirus-toyota-hybrid-car-maintenance

If you are charging the battery from a charger, then once every 2 weeks should be sufficient.

The Lidl charger packaging looks like this, when you can get one:-

Hope that helps.

[mrpj]

I have a Battery maintainer connected to my classic vehicle which has been an excellent buy. More expensive than some of the really cheap examples, but it works very well. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maypole-7423A-Battery-Charger-Electronic/dp/B009A83P1E/ref=sr_1_3?crid=34P7MVKHOR9YD&dchild=1&keywords=maypole+battery+charger&qid=1611496397&quartzVehicle=29-405&replacementKeywords=maypole+battery&sprefix=maypole%2Caps%2C180&sr=8-3

I also use a 5A CTEC connected to a "spare" Battery which is, of course, excellent at a price. However, the Maypole device is as good, in my opinion, at a quarter the price!

[Davidhee58]

just update my Auris Battery issue, yesterday I brought my car to the Toyota Centre at Hill of Woodford and they did an overnight charge test for me. below are the MIDTRONICS (Battery management innovation) test results:

rating V :   12.00

Battery rating:   275 A

battery Technology:  AGM

Cold Cranking  Amps:    272 A

Battery Standard:  CCA

State of Charge:      11.86 V

Test results: Good-Recharge

Test Code: 3DUGHP484B-31G3

Test code type: Unknow  

However, if I check the specs of the 12v battery on the Toyota owner manual, it states: 

Open Voltage at 20oC:  12.6-12.8V Full charged; 12.2-12.4V half-charged; 11.8-12.0V Discharged

Now I am totally confused, test results say 11.86V is good-recharge? owner manual states >12.0v is discharged, which is correct?  do I need to worry about it? any comments and advices are all welcome.

David

 

 

[Mooly]

Could the 11.86 volts be the voltage at the start of the test/recharge?

[Davidhee58]

18 minutes ago, Mooly said:

Could the 11.86 volts be the voltage at the start of the test/recharge?

Hi Mooly, thanks, I think it's after test and recharge, as I tried recharge the Battery myself at home by driving, power on at ready mode or using Maypole charger, i never got the voltage over 12v, it's always 11.8-11.9V. To the best of my knowledge,  the voltage of a fully charged AGM Battery is 12.9v, <12v is discharged. 

[Gerg]

I know next-to-nothing about the Midtronics range of testers, but according to a Midtronics user manual below, from their website, the "Test - Recharge" message means that the Battery has passed its test, and needs recharging before it is put back in service.

167-000739en-a-mdx-500-series-manual.pdf

When our Auris was bought by us at three years old, the Battery voltage, when measured some time after the car had been turned off, never seemed to exceed 12.2 volts.  On account of this I took the car to the Toyota dealer to be tested, and the Battery passed on their Midtronics tester.  This was a surprise to me at the time.

 

[Bob110023]

Hi. 12.80 volts is a fully charged Battery. These voltages can drop to 12.50 to 12.65 which we call the standing voltage. On a Hybrid vehicle the volts only need to be around 12.00 volts as its main job is to fire up the computer so there is no excessive load.

[Mooly]

14 hours ago, Davidhee58 said:

......i never got the voltage over 12v, it's always 11.8-11.9V. To the best of my knowledge,  the voltage of a fully charged AGM battery is 12.9v, <12v is discharged.

If you are reading that voltage across the terminals with a meter of known accuracy then it is considered essentially 'discharged'. 12.9 volt is a bit optimistic, particularly if the Battery has any kind of load on it for any length of time, but certainly it should be way over 11.8/9 volts you are reading. A Battery left in that state for an extended period will suffer degradation.

Although small differences of a few tenths of a volt seem inconsequential, they actually mean a lot as to the state of the Battery and what is going. 

[Davidhee58]

11 hours ago, Bob110023 said:

Hi. 12.80 volts is a fully charged battery. These voltages can drop to 12.50 to 12.65 which we call the standing voltage. On a Hybrid vehicle the volts only need to be around 12.00 volts as its main job is to fire up the computer so there is no excessive load.

Thanks Bob,  yes, I expect the voltage should be close to 12.80v if the Battery is fully charged. I was told by the services advisor yesterday the Battery test was fine, the Battery was recharged and re-tested, all ok. I checked battery voltage today, which is 11.95v, and the battery is discharged! I contacted the Toyota service depart again, the guy said 11.95 is ok, and  was told test and recharge are all they can do for me at the moment , or I have to leave my car to them for a week then they can do more investigation. I am really worrying the car will be dead again if I leave it on the driveway for 10 days or do. Do you know when the battery voltage drops to what kind of volts, the car will be dead? thanks for your help.

David

[Davidhee58]

15 minutes ago, Mooly said:

If you are reading that voltage across the terminals with a meter of known accuracy then it is considered essentially 'discharged'. 12.9 volt is a bit optimistic, particularly if the battery has any kind of load on it for any length of time, but certainly it should be way over 11.8/9 volts you are reading. A battery left in that state for an extended period will suffer degradation.

Although small differences of a few tenths of a volt seem inconsequential, they actually mean a lot as to the state of the battery and what is going. 

Thanks Mooly, checked the voltage today, and the Fluke multimeter reading was 11.95v, talked to the guy at the Woodford Hill Toyota Centre, he said the voltage is fine, I don't understand why he say <12.0v is ok. the Toyota owner manual clearly states 11.8-12.0 is discharged.

David

[TonyHSD]

26 minutes ago, Davidhee58 said:

Thanks Mooly, checked the voltage today, and the Fluke multimeter reading was 11.95v, talked to the guy at the Woodford Hill Toyota Centre, he said the voltage is fine, I don't understand why he say <12.0v is ok. the Toyota owner manual clearly states 11.8-12.0 is discharged.

David

If you let me say my thoughts about.
When Toyota technician says 11.95-12v it’s fine but the book says otherwise is because at this number is where the problems starts if you don’t use regularly, add the cold temperatures and the results are obvious. Cars driven frequently for longer time, ph vehicles, travel agents cars that cover long miles their cars batteries will be always well above this threshold of 12v and above where those cars that get use from time to time or mostly on short town trips batteries will be around 12v or just below, theoretically dead Battery, practically not yet, if you are using the car daily. Here trickle chargers are good investment if you have facilities to do so if not keep in ready mode, otherwise dead Battery is very likely event. 
👍

[Davidhee58]

6 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

If you let me say my thoughts about.
When Toyota technician says 11.95-12v it’s fine but the book says otherwise is because at this number is where the problems starts if you don’t use regularly, add the cold temperatures and the results are obvious. Cars driven frequently for longer time, ph vehicles, travel agents cars that cover long miles their cars batteries will be always well above this threshold of 12v and above where those cars that get use from time to time or mostly on short town trips batteries will be around 12v or just below, theoretically dead battery, practically not yet, if you are using the car daily. Here charges are good investment if you have facilities to do so if not keep in ready mode, otherwise dead battery is very likely event. 
👍

thanks Tony for your advices, as I don't drive daily, I am going to buy a charger, the problem is if the Battery voltage keeps below 12v, do I have to charge the Battery every day? dose it make sense? I have had this car for nearly 4 years, and left it on the driveway for almost 4 weeks for a couple of times when i was away for holiday, i never had flat Battery issue. David

[TonyHSD]

28 minutes ago, Davidhee58 said:

thanks Tony for your advices, as I don't drive daily, I am going to buy a charger, the problem is if the battery voltage keeps below 12v, do I have to charge the battery every day? dose it make sense? I have had this car for nearly 4 years, and left it on the driveway for almost 4 weeks for a couple of times when i was away for holiday, i never had flat battery issue. David

Hi David, 

tbh I can’t advise on this regarding charging and how often, I personally never use any charger been driving more than enough before lockdown, now I don’t but do keep in ready mode. Let see what others will advise you. 
Regards 

[Bob110023]

Hi David. I would disconnect the Battery from the car during recharge, once fully charged leave it disconnected for 24 hours if you can. Recheck the voltage and the standing voltage should be at least 12.50 volts or more.

[Davidhee58]

9 minutes ago, Bob110023 said:

Hi David. I would disconnect the battery from the car during recharge, once fully charged leave it disconnected for 24 hours if you can. Recheck the voltage and the standing voltage should be at least 12.50 volts or more.

thanks Bob, I did what you advised with the Maypole 4A charger, after a full charge, Maypole displayed 12.7V, Fluke multimeter reading was 12.5v, next morning it dropped to 18.7v (Fluke reading), it seems I can't keep the voltage over 12v. 

[Mooly]

2 hours ago, Davidhee58 said:

Thanks Mooly, checked the voltage today, and the Fluke multimeter reading was 11.95v, talked to the guy at the Woodford Hill Toyota Centre, he said the voltage is fine, I don't understand why he say <12.0v is ok. the Toyota owner manual clearly states 11.8-12.0 is discharged.

David

There is a lot that is an unknown here when discussing batteries.

Lets look at the cars electronics as an example. All the computer systems will be running on voltages much lower than a nominal 12 volts, typically probably in the 3.3v or 5v region. So that aspect of things will work down to Battery levels of probably 7 or 8 volts but it is quite possible (likely) there is a low voltage monitor that simply inhibits normal operation  when the Battery reaches some predetermined level.

So what I'm saying is that it may well be possible for the car to seem outwardly OK and function normally to the user with a Battery voltage of perhaps just 11 or 12 volts but from a purely 'battery aspect' that battery is considered discharged.

Someone may know the answer to this... on a Hybrid I assume that the lights and so on are fed solely from the 12 volt battery. We know from all the battery issues that Toyota Hybrids do not automatically top the 12v battery up automatically, that has to be done by placing it in ready mode.

So... I would suggest that a possible test would be to load the battery with some heavy electrical consumers as a test. LED headlights won't do but if they are conventional filament types (or filament type foglights) then that would be a decent load. Two conventional 55w headlights draw about 9 amps for example, two 45w foglights would pull 7.5 amps and so on. So a fully charged 35A battery should run headlights alone for at least 3.5 to 4 hours. If you monitor the battery voltage and find it falls rapidly in the first 10 minutes and starts getting toward 11.5V then the battery is in a poor state of charge. If that happened then stop the test. 

 

  

[Bob110023]

It looks like the internal Battery plates have sulfated which inhibits them from holding top of charge. You can charge it as much as you like but the Battery will not improve.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Mooly said:

We know from all the battery issues that Toyota Hybrids do not automatically top the 12v battery up automatically, that has to be done by placing it in ready mode

Toyota's recommendations for 12v Battery maintenance during lockdown and which also applies for periods of little use. Posted on the Club in April 2020:

 

[TonyHSD]

Little bit off topic , just spent an hour in my car for Battery recharge in ready mode and played with  Carista obd 2 adapter I have, I wanted to see my 12v Battery state of charge but could not find any info, tried with Prius app but only hybrid Battery info is shown,  is these numbers any good? They look ok to me but I am not a battery specialist. 

[Davidhee58]

4 hours ago, Bob110023 said:

Hi David. I would disconnect the battery from the car during recharge, once fully charged leave it disconnected for 24 hours if you can. Recheck the voltage and the standing voltage should be at least 12.50 volts or more.

Hi Bob, disconnecting the negative terminal of the Battery triggers the alarm, have you had this issue before? is there any way to disactivate the alarm?, it seemed to me unlocking the doors with the remote control key couldn't prevent to trigger the alarm when I tried to charge the Battery.