Flat Battery issue

[TonyHSD]

Hi Roy, this sentence is very wrong and can make confusion to many new hybrids owners:” The AGM Battery was solely to energise the system“,

The AGM 12V Battery is the Battery for all electronics in your hybrid except electric motors and air conditioning, they solely use the power from your 240V battery. This high voltage battery feeds a device called inverter-converter who converts 240v into 600v to feed your electric motor and propel the car, also the same inverter-converter inverts high voltage into 14.4v to recharge your small 12v battery which alone powers all electronics of the car like power windows, mirrors, heating, lights, infotainment, even your water pump. Here some interesting videos, this Professor is a real treasure for information about Toyota hybrids. Highly recommended to Watch all hybrid episodes 
Enjoy 

 

[Roy124]

Before I go to my garage, may I ask for an opinion.

The AA man suspected my Battery was below power and slow to take a charge from the main Battery.  Yesterday we went for a run and I then garaged the car overnight with doors locked.  This morning the Battery showed just 11.75 volts. The battery is 10 months old.  Even during lock downs we have had to run the car to the doctors, the vets or the supermarket.  Mileage is about 300 per month.

Is that normal/acceptable or does it merit a garage check? 

[Rosgoe]

22 hours ago, Gerg said:

Hi Rosgoe, I hadn't spotted that you'd said anything different - this wasn't meant to contradict anything you'd said.  It would be interesting to see if your battery is an AGM - I was only guessing!

I wonder if this particularly relates to the more recent 'smart' (brake energy recovery) alternators that have become popular.  These ones, which often only charge when you are braking or on the overrun, seem to change plenty of what you thought you knew about the workings of alternators of old. (well, for me, anyway)! 

Perhaps, with these new charging systems, some battery capacity is left unused so that the alternator has something to charge into, when you brake etc?  If that is the case, then the hybrid is already doing that into the traction battery, I suppose, so it will charge the battery to capacity.  I've never seen any mention of deliberately not charging the 12v battery up

 

If you  were ever looking into getting a meter for more than 'emergency' use (I appreciate that you were talking about dash meters!), then this one is quite useful:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNI-T-DIGITAL-UT210E-100Amp-600V-AC-DC-CLAMP-METER-Multimeter-True-RMS-VFC-diode/283882488770?hash=item4218b703c2:g:CWgAAOSwXHhdkA1E

It's sadly gone up a chunk, strangely this is since Brexit.  I have had one for a few years (£30 back then).  It's claim to fame is that it has a clamp-on DC current meter, which used to be a very expensive feature a while back. Great for automotive charge/discharge problems - no dismantling needed. But the rest of the meter is fairly ordinary.

Perhaps you are aware; there are simple, but functioning, digital voltmeters available from China for £2.80 upwards, that's including (pretty slow) delivery.  Not an item to remotely be proud of, but the value is there!

 

Just checked my Battery definitely lead acid unscrewed one of the cell tops you can see the acid/ distilled water in there.

[AndrueC]

On 1/8/2021 at 12:35 PM, Roy124 said:

Tony, thank you.  I tried a range check.  My garage is attached to the house.  My keys are near my front door and on a direct line about 20 feet away.  On a diagonal the direct path passes through a double thermalite block wall.  The key works.  Rather than your pepsi can idea I think we can go one better.  We have a small drawer in our hall table.  It is the exact size of a Marks and Spencer Belgian chocolate biscuit tin*.  I will try that.

*I must declare an interest, we have M&S shares so please try their biscuit tin 🙂

Similar deal here, car in attached garage, keys in front door but my car refuses to acknowledge their existence. It's actually been a bit of a pain on occasion when I just wanted to pop out to the car to do a sat nav route check. I do leave my car unlocked in the garage but so far don't seem to have had any problems with the Battery.

[Roy124]

Yes, my keys have to be in the car to power it up .

[TonyHSD]

If the car been only used occasionally for short trips and not kept enough in ready mode the 12v Battery will suffer and die prematurely, because this Battery feeds all electronics and so needs the car to be in ready mode longer to recharge properly. Using heater , radio, sat nav and fog lights , wipers all together just on a short run to the supermarket and back will kill the Battery faster than for example a private hire driver who uses all even more electronics in the car but keeps the car in ready mode for hours long shifts every day. Not only hybrids but all cars will suffer from the above circumstances, however Toyota hybrid 12v batteries are smaller than any other cars and so they are more vulnerable against short journeys or lack of use. That’s why we get so many battery complaints from Toyota hybrid cars, and that’s why I am keeping my car 2-3 times a week in Ready mode for 30-60 min at a time while not driving due to the lockdown. Other option is a trickle charger if you have a garage. Not convenient for me unfortunately. 

[Roy124]

Tony, thank you.  Regarding trickle charging, would you set it to run continuously, ie float with the slow charge rate?

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Tony, thank you.  Regarding trickle charging, would you set it to run continuously, ie float with the slow charge rate?

Sorry, I can’t help with trickle charger as I have never used one myself. Hopefully soon someone will advise you.👍

[Roy124]

I am trying to find out the type of 12v Battery fitted to the car.  It is a Varta 345LN1 MF but searching for the Battery does not reveal whether is is a lead acid or AGM.  I suspect it is actually lead acid as the other marking is the waste disposal symbol and Pb which suggests it is lead acid unless AGM batteries also have lead components such as Battery posts.

21 hours ago, AndrueC said:

 

Any clues?

[TonyHSD]

2.0 hybrid very likely to be agm as it’s located in the boot, for the 1.8 hybrid can be lead acid as it’s in the engine bay. 

[Gray86]

23 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Tony, thank you.  Regarding trickle charging, would you set it to run continuously, ie float with the slow charge rate?

I really recommend the CTEC MXS 5.0 charger (as do many others - seems to get rave reviews!). It’s switch on & forget you can leave it on for months and it will float until you need to drive the car. Also has a recondition feature for if your Battery has been depleted fully or is getting old. 
 

I'm fortunate enough to have a garage, but have left it plugged into my in-laws cars on the drive during first lockdown (it just sits under the bonnet). 
 

a charge every couple of weeks will keep your Battery in fine fettle. It only takes a few hours on these little batteries too! 
 

these retail around £60-70 and you can always sell it on if you find you aren’t using it any more: 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/battery-chargers/ctek/mxs5-0/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlLGG6uKR7gIVt4BQBh3LJQigEAQYAyABEgJ37fD_BwE

 

[Roy124]

Gray, thanks for that, I see that is the ne that Honest John also recommends. I just did a slow charge with my Ring charger and that showed charged after an hour.  I will see how the Battery manages over the next few trips.

Many years ago Ford used to sell a charger that you could wire in and then just plug in, not sure where the plug was.  I think they also did sump heaters and coolant heaters.  Perfect for very cold weather.  I did look briefly at the SAAB ffer when I was in the north of Scotland but as I had a garage I decided it was not worth it.  Only at work was I likely to get a cold soak but of course no electricity.

I see the CTEK has optional connectors for hard wiring and the case appears to have holes for screws too which suggests hard wiring is an option.

As an aside, 60 years ago our 'fleet' of Standard Vanguards had plug in heaters and chargers and snatch cables to disconnect.  Sometimes they worked, some times they didn't.  It was the garage mounting that failed first 🙂

Edited January 10, 2021 by Roy124

[hayalgoparati1878]

hi roy did you get to the bottom of your Battery problem, and what type of Battery in your corolla?

[Roy124]

14 minutes ago, hayalgoparati1878 said:

hi roy did you get to the bottom of your battery problem, and what type of battery in your corolla?

Summary.

1. The CTEK Battery monitor change is GREEN when over 80% charged, and RED when charge is down to 60%. In practice it drops below 80% not long after parking up.  It then dropped to Red within 24 hrs.  It does the job and at best would say you do not need to plug in a charger.Having opened the bonnet to check, you mat as well plug in a charger anyway.

2. The Battery will discharge to 12v or less in about 36-48 hrs.

3. I emailed the garage for an opinion.  To no great surprise they have not responded.  A previous job, set up through MyToyota similarly failed to get a response and came as a complete surprise when I arrived at the appointed time.

4. It happens that my first annual service, 12 months/3,000 miles 😞 will give me a chance to acost them.

[hayalgoparati1878]

isnt it funny how dealers the world over go suddenly deaf once you have paid for the car, and drive away you are left to struggle to find the help you need ,so much fore 5 years and 100000 mile warranty, have you been driving it every day since it went flat on you.

[Roy124]

No I drive every 3-4 days though recently, as we have been able to get home delivery slots it is nearer once a week.  Until today, my last was Saturday for my Jab.  Next will be Sunday for my wife's jab.

I had kept a log of batter voltage every 24 hours.

I think I might just ring the dealer and ask if their email is down.:)

[hayalgoparati1878]

thats good that you have had your jab roy, i am 59 i will be lucky if i get one by june mate,   this is what i would do with the Battery situation 2 days a week put the car in ready mode for an hour or so that will charge your auxiliary Battery so when you come to drive somewhere you shouldn't have a problem. 

[Roy124]

41 minutes ago, hayalgoparati1878 said:

thats good that you have had your jab roy, i am 59 i will be lucky if i get one by june mate,   this is what i would do with the battery situation 2 days a week put the car in ready mode for an hour or so that will charge your auxiliary battery so when you come to drive somewhere you shouldn't have a problem. 

Oh I know that.  I now have a CTEK Battery charger set up as well.  The concern with a Battery like that is when I go on holiday, if we go on holiday, with the car sitting at an airport car park for two weeks.  My last car, a 220d Mercedes had a massive Battery intended for stop/start for which the car was not fitted.  After 13 years it had one or two weak cells and I changed the battery.  Kwikfix was happy to do it but equally happy to assure me that it was good enough.

What I shall do before a time critical journey - Sunday night when my wife has her jab appointment, is check and charge the battery one way or the other.

[hayalgoparati1878]

roy is the CTEC charger compatible with agm batteries?  normal chargers can damage those type of batteries, you might have damaged it at the beginning when you were trying to charge it with your old charger. 

[Roy124]

25 minutes ago, hayalgoparati1878 said:

roy is the CTEC charger compatible with agm batteries?  normal chargers can damage those type of batteries, you might have damaged it at the beginning when you were trying to charge it with your old charger. 

I forgot to mention, all 1.8 cars have lead acid batteries under the bonnet and 2.0 have AGM in the boot.  Also the Basic Ring Charger is AGM compatible.  The CTEK is certainly a superior model.  It can be set for cars or motorbikes, lead acid and AGM.  It then has a sequence of modes that it will run through to test, charrge and recondition a Battery as required.

[hayalgoparati1878]

1.8 oh ok roy,toyota should be changing that under warranty, !Removed! hell a 12v new car Battery should last longer than yours, in hindsight what you know now about hybrids are you not sorry you bought a non hybrid that can be left for weeks and still start up.

[Ian.S]

 

I forgot to mention, all 1.8 cars have lead acid batteries under the bonnet and 2.0 have AGM in the boot
 

Roy

Your statement above is incorrect. My 2.0 TS Excel has a normal maintenance free lead acid Battery in the boot. I have confirmed this by inspection and checking the manufacturer’s model number on the Battery and with the dealer. Please do not make such unvalidated blanket statements. 

[Roy124]

23 minutes ago, Ian.S said:

 

I forgot to mention, all 1.8 cars have lead acid batteries under the bonnet and 2.0 have AGM in the boot
 

Roy

Your statement above is incorrect. My 2.0 TS Excel has a normal maintenance free lead acid battery in the boot. I have confirmed this by inspection and checking the manufacturer’s model number on the battery and with the dealer. Please do not make such unvalidated blanket statements. 

Thank you Ian, I got my information off the Toyota site, but I am not surprised.

[AndrueC]

I've just bought a CTEK charger and hooked it up last night. The manual says to connect the negative lead to any unpainted metal surface but there are no such surfaces in the engine bay. So in the end I just connected it directly to both Battery terminals. It took about an hour to reach what the charger calls the 'absorption stage' which apparently means charged to 80%. Then some time overnight it switched to 'float' and that's where it's been all day.

So no more running the car for an hour a week. It's in the garage with the bonnet open and the charger attached until the next time I need it which is going to be the 26th of February when I take it for its annual service.

Which is mildly annoying. Annual service and I've only done £4k miles. I'm on a service plan so there's no cost but it still feels like I'm being cheated. Here's hoping that I won't need to put the car back on the charger when it gets home because the lockdown will start to be lifted from March. My birthday is the 28th so that would be a great present.

[Roy124]

Andrue, its a neat bit of kit.  Are you using the clips, I guess you are.  Did you measure the voltage before you started?

I have the service 1st March and onl 3k.  Did you read the schedule?  Very tempting for the garage to just polish the car.

I went to a Greek garage once and foolishly walked off with the keys.  They did a brilliant job even draining the engine oil.  When I returned they did the under bonnet stuff in record time.

Years later I took the car to a garage way up north.  Picked the car up Friday after noon before towing a caravan around the Highlands.  Did a quite under bonnet check.  Brake fluid - none.  Engine oil crank case cap - clean.  Engine oil - black, and so it went on.  I got my money back.  Luckily a hole in the wall garage in the old town did the brakes and oil that evening and the full service the following week.