Battery weakness in Auris Hybrid

[Gerg]

53 minutes ago, Mooly said:

That battery issues seem to be the number one complaint on the forums concerning Hybrids shows that the designs are seriously flawed... no new and modern vehicle should be leaving its owner stranded when it is not used for a few days)

I agree.  Hyundai seem to agree too, and they've come up with something to offset this in their Ioniq  - just as you have (independently) come up with!

https://www.ioniqforum.com/threads/2020-face-lift-12v-battery-flat-after-2-days.34335/

I addition, the 12v Battery is no longer of the lead variety, it sits physically as an extension of the traction Battery, but partitioned, as it's a LiFePo4 chemistry, which the traction Battery isn't.  Interesting what they've done there.  But I wouldn't like to price a replacement up, if it were ever needed.  I think I've got all that correct - it was a while back when I read about it.

[Mooly]

That is interesting, thanks for linking to that. So Hyundai say this cuts in every 72 hours for up to 10 times... so 30 days, a month of keeping the aux Battery charged. That sounds a reasonable target I suppose.

My background is in electronics and so doing something like this seems such a logical progression. Well done Hyundai.

I wouldn't like to guess replacement costs either but non replaceable (or non easily user replaceable anyway) is becoming the way of things, like laptops with inbuilt non replaceable Battery packs, now becoming the norm. 

 

[hayalgoparati1878]

hey lads can a normal 12v varga type Battery be swapped for the AGR one.

[Catlover]

Michael, why would you want to do that?

[Mooly]

13 hours ago, hayalgoparati1878 said:

hey lads can a normal 12v varga type battery be swapped for the AGR one.

Do you mean Varta and AGM  🙂

If so then I suspect there is not a definitive guaranteed answer for this. If the Battery is for an older car then it is possible the alternator may overcharge the Battery under certain conditions such as really cold ambient temperatures. This happens because the alternator voltage can be as high as 16 volts for a short while.  

Also a partially discharged AGM Battery in an older car (such as if you leave the lights on a while or you leave it standing a while etc) will tend to draw a charge current limited only by the alternator itself and that could exceed the AGM batteries recommended maximum charge rate.

 

[Catlover]

9 minutes ago, Mooly said:

Do you mean Varta and AGM  🙂

If so then I suspect there is not a definitive guaranteed answer for this. If the battery is for an older car then it is possible the alternator may overcharge the battery under certain conditions such as really cold ambient temperatures. This happens because the alternator voltage can be as high as 16 volts for a short while.  

Also a partially discharged AGM battery in an older car (such as if you leave the lights on a while or you leave it standing a while etc) will tend to draw a charge current limited only by the alternator itself and that could exceed the AGM batteries recommended maximum charge rate.

 

Michaels car, a 2019 Corolla, is hybrid therefore does not have an alternator. Being 2019 it should not be requiring a new Battery, unless a defect then it should be back to Toyota. 

[Mooly]

I did wonder tbh. A 'normal' Battery to me means a flooded type traditional one... and that wouldn't be fitted to a 2019 Hybrid anyway.

Have to see what he comes back with.

  

[hayalgoparati1878]

thanks for the info mooly and joe, sorry i never explained myself properly i was just reading a few posts on the auxiliary Battery in the corolla and other hybrid cars sometimes going flat, but since i wrote the question about agm vs standard lead acid type Battery, i have been reading up on the hybrid system in the corolla touring sport and i educated myself a bit, on another note joe i am still on the hunt for my sport touring i had a short test drive in december just before the latest lockdown, but i found out it was a bit to much, my max is 22k and i have seen a few i want in that price range, but the dealerships near me are all closed, so its the old waiting game for me at the moment.

[Gerg]

1 hour ago, Mooly said:

A 'normal' battery to me means a flooded type traditional one... and that wouldn't be fitted to a 2019 Hybrid anyway.

Hi Mooly,

I'm seeing if there is a pattern to the Toyota 12v fitment, just for my own benefit.  As you are often helping with suggestions and feedback I thought it might be of use reporting what I think is fitted to what, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

As far as I can see, in the Toyota hybrid, if the 12v Battery is fitted in the passenger compartment or in the boot, then Toyota (and Lexus it seems) fit an AGM Battery.  I did think that the AGM's slightly different electrical characteristics were also better suited to the hybrid application, but...

But, on the C-HR, Prius gen4 and Corolla 1.8 the (45Ah) battery is fitted under the bonnet (not least because the inverter has been reduced in size, so it can now physically fit).  On these cars, as far as I can tell, the batteries are not AGM, just a regular lead/acid.  So perhaps the AGM's characteristics are not useful, beyond accident leakage protection etc?

The 2 litre Corolla has the 12v Battery in the boot (lack of space with the 2 litre motor), as I understand it.  So it would figure that that battery is AGM again, but I don't know that, yet.

An Auris and Yaris (pre 2020) hybrids have an almost identical 35Ah AGM battery, which I think is the same as the Prius gen 3, which you almost certainly are aware of.  The CT200h has the luxury of a 45Ah AGM battery, despite being so similar mechanically and electrically to the Prius gen3 and Auris.

It would be interesting to know if the DC/DC converter's characteristics are much modified to suit the switching from AGM to 'Normal' 12v batteries in these newer models.

Also, on a different note, against expectations, the 2 litre Corolla runs with NiMH traction batteries, which Toyota acknowledges work better in the cold.  The 1.8 model Corolla doesn't have those.

Hopefully there's something in the above that's of use.

 

 

 

 

[Mooly]

🙂 thanks... and its always useful and informative hearing what is actually fitted in practice.

AGM's definitely major on physical safety as there is no 'spillable' acid sloshing around which would be a major factor in accidents.

I mentioned the older flooded batteries as being 'traditional' but there are the Enhanced Flooded (EFB) types in common use, still a Battery with acid sloshing around but they do have better performance, accept higher charge rates etc than the conventional old flooded type... probably approaching more an AGM type on that score.

I wouldn't like to say on the DC/DC convertor question. It is critically important never to over volt an AGM Battery while charging because of the sealed nature of the Battery and the consequent risk of pressure build up. Modern electronics (the DC/DC convertor) make it easy to tightly regulate charging voltage not just in absolute terms but also if desired so that the correct voltage relative to ambient temperature is maintained... if they want to go that far. 

[TonyHSD]

Decided to measure my 12v Battery today. Car haven’t been used for two day. On the first attempt after I unlocked the car and removed all my stuff from the boot to access the Battery I got stable 12.27V , then I started the car and kept in ready mode for 40 min I measured during that time showed charging at 14.74V then after I switched off the car quickly measured again showed 12.95V and voltage starts dropping, went down to 12.61V stable after around 2min. I believe I have the oem Battery, at least look like it and I never changed during my ownership of over 5 years. That’s some numbers for reference if anyone measure theirs. 

[Techead]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:46 AM, Parts-King said:

Details of Ring Solar battery maintainer:

Comes with suction cups for easy mounting, supplied with 12 DC power lead, plus battery clips, durable weather resistant casing, flashing LED charge indicator, 2.7 metre connecting lead, reverse polarity protector, 1.5W Some photos below, Price £25.99 plus carriage. Can plug onto battery or via aux input, mount the solar panel on the dash if your car is parked outside, or if you garage the car, you can mount the panel outside and run the cables into the garage

Thanks for the info, I just got a newsletter from my local dealer about these.

You mention you can plug it into the aux (cigarette lighter) though I thought on most cars now, that port actually shuts down so charging via that port wouldn't be possible? Wondering if anyone could confirm or not? I have an Auris 2014 Hybrid if that matters. Would be good to know, I've seen other brands such as the AA solar panel which is larger in size 4.8W has a supplied ODB2 port to allow charging via as an option. Would that work too?

[delbois]

On 1/28/2021 at 1:26 PM, Gerg said:

Hi Mooly,

I'm seeing if there is a pattern to the Toyota 12v fitment, just for my own benefit.  As you are often helping with suggestions and feedback I thought it might be of use reporting what I think is fitted to what, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

As far as I can see, in the Toyota hybrid, if the 12v battery is fitted in the passenger compartment or in the boot, then Toyota (and Lexus it seems) fit an AGM battery.  I did think that the AGM's slightly different electrical characteristics were also better suited to the hybrid application, but...

But, on the C-HR, Prius gen4 and Corolla 1.8 the (45Ah) battery is fitted under the bonnet (not least because the inverter has been reduced in size, so it can now physically fit).  On these cars, as far as I can tell, the batteries are not AGM, just a regular lead/acid.  So perhaps the AGM's characteristics are not useful, beyond accident leakage protection etc?

The 2 litre Corolla has the 12v battery in the boot (lack of space with the 2 litre motor), as I understand it.  So it would figure that that battery is AGM again, but I don't know that, yet.

An Auris and Yaris (pre 2020) hybrids have an almost identical 35Ah AGM battery, which I think is the same as the Prius gen 3, which you almost certainly are aware of.  The CT200h has the luxury of a 45Ah AGM battery, despite being so similar mechanically and electrically to the Prius gen3 and Auris.

It would be interesting to know if the DC/DC converter's characteristics are much modified to suit the switching from AGM to 'Normal' 12v batteries in these newer models.

Also, on a different note, against expectations, the 2 litre Corolla runs with NiMH traction batteries, which Toyota acknowledges work better in the cold.  The 1.8 model Corolla doesn't have those.

Hopefully there's something in the above that's of use.

 

 

 

 

It's very hard to get a clear idea of which 12v Battery is used across Toyota models. My Auris has had three batteries in 7 years - 1st replaced under warranty and the second was £130 off an excellent hybrid specialist seller on eBay. I'm about to take delivery of a nearly new 2.0L Corolla TS and was chatting to the dealer's spares bloke so I asked him to look up the replacement Battery for the new car - the part no. he quoted was 28800-YZZZF and cost roughly 60+ quid plus vat. I can find virtually nothing about this part on the internet apart from a couple of Polish and German hits, and not for Corolla.

Another Corolla part no. I saw in a photo of a Battery next to a sparesaver wheel (therefore situated in the passenger compartment) was 345LN1-MF - the attached Facebook match gives an interesting explanation of the use of a non-AGM (and presumably non-vented) battery.

[Bob110023]

With all the 12 volt issues and my Auris now just over 5 years old I have been doing some voltage checks on the original Battery. If my car was left for one day ( over night in my garage) the voltage at the Battery in the boot was 11.1 volts and it still starts up the computer. When the car is left for two nights the Battery voltage was 10.2 volts and it still started the computer. When the car runs the battery charges normally at 14.8 volts and after a few miles floats at 13.4 to 13.6 volts. Does anyone know at what battery voltage it no longer starts the computer. At 5 years old I will be replacing the battery just in case.

[AisinW]

Toyota and Lexus owner MANTRA. Don't fix it if it is not broken or we just wasted our money. Especially if we change parts with non original, we could get worse parts.  But for Battery, typical in hybrid, 12V Battery last 5-10 years, depends on where do you live, how you drive, and where you park the cars.  Hot weather kills the Battery faster, same thing with the HV battery.  In UK and Ireland, it last more than 12 years easily but in hot Spain or Greece, 10-11 years is the average. 

[Mooly]

Those Battery voltages tell us something...

11.1 and particularly 10.2 volts say that the Battery is (must be) deteriorating badly. Deteriorating as in being in a low state of charge. That would apply to a new Battery drawn down to that level and left.

Secondly, if you took a health battery and discharged it down to 11.1 volts it would be considered discharged (flat... or empty) and would therefore draw a very high current when charging again... and your results show that can not be happening.

The charge current would be limited essentially by the circuit charging it. So to observe that it 'floats normally' after just a few miles suggests the capacity of the battery is way down and it is not drawing significant current.  

The voltage at which the electronics stop working is an unknown. Computer based circuitry will be running on 5 volts or less and so could well operate normally with an input voltage down to 7 or 8 volts. More likely there may be a 'low voltage detect' which is used to inhibit the systems deliberately, possibly to prevent even more serious discharge of the battery.  

[TonyHSD]

10 hours ago, Bob110023 said:

With all the 12 volt issues and my Auris now just over 5 years old I have been doing some voltage checks on the original battery. If my car was left for one day ( over night in my garage) the voltage at the battery in the boot was 11.1 volts and it still starts up the computer. When the car is left for two nights the battery voltage was 10.2 volts and it still started the computer. When the car runs the battery charges normally at 14.8 volts and after a few miles floats at 13.4 to 13.6 volts. Does anyone know at what battery voltage it no longer starts the computer. At 5 years old I will be replacing the battery just in case.

Hi, maybe a good idea to buy a charger and charge your Battery once in a while and buy a new replacement Battery when this one goes completely dead. 5 years old Battery , the charger will be handy for the new battery too if you don’t drive enough to keep it recharged all the times. 

[AisinW]

10V after you press the power button without pressing the brake pedals 2x is the limit.   Below 10V, the computer will complaint and start giving error codes or do not start at all.   My 6 years old  Battery is still fine.  It reads 11.7-11.9V.  My dead Battery in 2006 Prius shows 12V but cannot take any load, not even unlock the door. So, the best way is reading the voltage after you apply some load like headlight or blower motor on.  Mine read 10.9V with headlight, defroster (front and rear), full blast blower motor.  It is still normal and never have issue at all. Open circuit, when the car is off is 12.2-12.4 V.