Yaris Hybrid 2020 TNGA - Hybrid System Malfunction

[TonyHSD]

13 minutes ago, RickyC said:

Unluckily the EGR Valve issue is spreading in Italy.  Is impacting also other models equipped with Dynamic Force engines ( 2.0 Liter engine of CHR / Corolla and 2.5 of RAV ) 

The answer is always the same:  EGR valve and EGR cooler damaged by Clorine contaminated fuel so not covered by warranty. 

Do you know of similar issues on petrol ( not diesel ) engines in UK ?

I am not aware of any issues with egr components on latest Toyota hybrids in Uk . I had been servicing older gen 3 models and know the egr system which is almost the same as the new ones and except carbon build up there was nothing damaged and all that needed was cleaning at around 100k miles. These latest cars are still very new to have anything similar caused, the egr system has only exhaust gases passing through, not sure if different chemicals in the fuel can change the egr operation to cause damage, also in Uk we are about to get this mew E10 petrol if this is what you mean, but the difference there is the ethanol content, I have seen a video from Italy with really badly sound 2.0 df engine and it’s scary. Here it is and it’s from Italy 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Extract from ACEA Worldwide Fuel Charter 2019:

"Chlorine

This element is not naturally contained in petroleum, but it has been found in gasoline in both inorganic and organic forms. Inorganic chlorine is believed to enter the fuel as a result of contamination by sea water ballast during shipping or from salt water intrusion during storage. Such contamination occurs more readily in gasoline-ethanol blends than in E0 (zero ethanol content) due to the blends’ ability to dissolve more water. Some organic chlorine is believed to enter the fuel during the reforming process at refineries, since the catalysts used to convert low RON naphtha to higher octane aromatics often contain chloride. Organic chlorine also may enter the fuel as a result of adulteration with chemical or waste solvents. Chlorine forms highly corrosive acids during combustion, which can reduce significantly the durability of the engine, fuel system and emission control system. In the worst case, the presence of chlorine may lead to catastrophic engine failure as injectors fail to operate or operate improperly after various periods and levels of exposure."

[Catlover]

Tony, you should be called Sherlock, and Mike (Frostyballs) called Holmes, so the forum has its own Sherlock Holmes. Good investigation work there.

[TonyHSD]

31 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Extract from ACEA Worldwide Fuel Charter 2019:

"Chlorine

This element is not naturally contained in petroleum, but it has been found in gasoline in both inorganic and organic forms. Inorganic chlorine is believed to enter the fuel as a result of contamination by sea water ballast during shipping or from salt water intrusion during storage. Such contamination occurs more readily in gasoline-ethanol blends than in E0 (zero ethanol content) due to the blends’ ability to dissolve more water. Some organic chlorine is believed to enter the fuel during the reforming process at refineries, since the catalysts used to convert low RON naphtha to higher octane aromatics often contain chloride. Organic chlorine also may enter the fuel as a result of adulteration with chemical or waste solvents. Chlorine forms highly corrosive acids during combustion, which can reduce significantly the durability of the engine, fuel system and emission control system. In the worst case, the presence of chlorine may lead to catastrophic engine failure as injectors fail to operate or operate improperly after various periods and levels of exposure."

Thanks for sharing, this is helpful info and the video I posted is worrying fact for many of us and particularly the dynamic force engine cars. , as these have dual injection and if chlorine can enter the fuel system and cause damage then the risk is x2 since that engines has not 4 but 8 injectors to fail. 🤭 If Toyota refuse to help then independent specialist is the only solution who can dismantle all parts and inspect them. Perhaps the new E10;might not be suitable for all cars not only some. 😶

[TonyHSD]

11 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Tony, you should be called Sherlock, and Mike (Frostyballs) called Holmes, so the forum has its own Sherlock Holmes. Good investigation work there.

Lol, working as a team always helps.😊 This video randomly recommended to me few days ago, and now I had a chance to share, the knocking is the dumper clutch springs caused by misfire and if you leave it like that for a long time no wonder the clutch will fail prematurely. I know that noise since my Auris started to make it but only when engine was loaded and then immediately unloaded the knocking was present for a few seconds and then went away, but here we have constant sound of self destruction. My one was kind of ‘easy’ fix, just cleaned all egr things and happy days for now. 🤞

[RickyC]

But from video I see that engine is quite new ( about 18.000 Km )

I don't understand why this engine is noisy.  Maybe one cylinder ( you say pot ? ) is misfiring so it's working with 3 cylinders. But I expect that OBD can give interesting clues.

@TonyHSDmaybe I've misunderstood you but are you saying that gasoline composition is different in UK from the Italian one with more Ethanol ?

[TonyHSD]

3 minutes ago, RickyC said:

But from video I see that engine is quite new ( about 18.000 Km )

I don't understand why this engine is noisy.  Maybe one cylinder ( you say pot ? ) is misfiring so it's working with 3 cylinders. But I expect that OBD can give interesting clues.

@TonyHSDmaybe I've misunderstood you but are you saying that gasoline composition is different in UK from the Italian one with more Ethanol ?

We only have E5 currently and from next week we will have E10 on 95 unleaded and E5 remains for premium 99. I believe in Italy already uses E10 as most of the eu since 2018 , but I am not exactly sure each country what type of petrol they use. This is very strange a new car to sound like that and if the petrol is to blame it’s scary. 

[Mikw]

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

We only have E5 currently and from next week we will have E10 on 95 unleaded and E5 remains for premium 99. I believe in Italy already uses E10 as most of the eu since 2018 , but I am not exactly sure each country what type of petrol they use. This is very strange a new car to sound like that and if the petrol is to blame it’s scary. 

Based on that, what petrol do you recommend to use for engine health in the new Yaris? E10 or E5?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota engines, with the exception of two, produced since 1998 are compatible with E10. 

The question for Italy is whether Chlorine contamination is common in the petrol they use. The same story may not be applicable to the UK. We only get a small percentage of our refined petroleum from Italy - approx 2% in 2019.

As regards whether E5 or E10 is better, it is difficult to say. E10 will supposedly have a small adverse effect on economy, whereas E5 (super unleaded) will be more expensive. Also E10 won't be widely available til next week.

[Catlover]

Could it be that when we, the users, start filling with E10 that it could be weakened because the E10 will have been added to a garages tank already used probably for previous petrol?  This will mean the E10 is still fit for sale because it is “up to 10%”.

Then of course the E10 is being added to whatever is in our petrol tank.

[CPN]

Good point Joe! I suspect this story will run and run....

[Catlover]

13 minutes ago, CPN said:

Good point Joe! I suspect this story will run and run....

Yep, I reckon there is a strong chance of loads of problems.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

Yep, I reckon there is a strong chance of loads of problems.

Second fill up with Tesco 99 E5 and the car drives really good, efficiency is exactly the same as 95 E5, yet to try the new E10 95. Perhaps next week from Tuesday onwards, will share how it is going by the end of the week. 👍

[TonyHSD]

Hi, 

here it is an interesting article about the new E10 petrol and direct injection engines: 

https://autotechnician.co.uk/forewarned-is-forearmed-e10-petrol/
 

Something strange is happening on the latest Toyota models equipped with dynamic force engine there are few complaints from Italy about engine issues, and Toyota claims it’s because of bad fuel and refuses to help. I can not comment further on that and I don’t own a Toyota with this engine but if I had one I would rather stick with E5 until get clear picture of what is exactly the cause of the issues. 

[CPN]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, 

here it is an interesting article about the new E10 petrol and direct injection engines: 

https://autotechnician.co.uk/forewarned-is-forearmed-e10-petrol/

Very interesting indeed! The more worrying thing is that next month, that article with be a full two years old and I wonder if any of this has been taken into consideration by the UK Government and mitigated in some way before they made the final decision to go for E10 fuel?

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Something strange is happening on the latest Toyota models equipped with dynamic force engine there are few complaints from Italy about engine issues, and Toyota claims it’s because of bad fuel and refuses to help. I can not comment further on that and I don’t own a Toyota with this engine but if I had one I would rather stick with E5 until get clear picture of what is exactly the cause of the issues. 

That's how I am feeling right now and I also feel that I don't even want to risk one tankful in what is essentially (for us anyway) just about a new car... (only 1540 on the ODO so far)

Given the infrequency of how often we fill-up and the fact that I can afford it, I think I may just stick to Shell V-Power fuel; for a while anyway...

[Gray86]

I’m a few tankfuls in on E10, and not noticed a difference over E5. MPG is just as good (if not better) than before. The fuel filler cap suggests both E5 and E10 are acceptable. 

[Mikw]

7 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Second fill up with Tesco 99 E5 and the car drives really good, efficiency is exactly the same as 95 E5, yet to try the new E10 95. Perhaps next week from Tuesday onwards, will share how it is going by the end of the week. 👍

I've been running my Yaris on Tesco 99 for the last few tanks in preperation, it seems to like it so far.

Yes, it costs more, but hearing about the engine issues suffered in Italy (and seeing as my car is quite new) i don't want to risk early damage.

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, CPN said:

The more worrying thing is that next month, that article with be a full two years old and I wonder if any of this has been taken into consideration by the UK Government and mitigated in some way before they made the final decision to go for E10 fuel?

You mean did engineering trump politics?

 🤣

[MikeSh]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

here it is an interesting article about the new E10 petrol and direct injection engines: 

https://autotechnician.co.uk/forewarned-is-forearmed-e10-petrol/
 

Is this why there are so few Toyota PHEVs?

(About half way down, just above the picture of a fuel filler)

[RickyC]

23 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Toyota engines, with the exception of two, produced since 1998 are compatible with E10. 

The question for Italy is whether Chlorine contamination is common in the petrol they use. The same story may not be applicable to the UK. We only get a small percentage of our refined petroleum from Italy - approx 2% in 2019.

As regards whether E5 or E10 is better, it is difficult to say. E10 will supposedly have a small adverse effect on economy, whereas E5 (super unleaded) will be more expensive. Also E10 won't be widely available til next week.

Currently in Italy standard RON95 gasoline is E5 ( at least according to the label on pumps )  

I've not checked if lower cost gasoline sold on commercial centers is E10.  But reading the notes of users that had this problem I see that they usually buy gasoline in highway gas stations owned by big companies that sell a lot of gasoline so there's an high rotation of fresh fuel.

[elizac]

Hello everyone, the problem in Italy is very big. Toyota Italy claims that is a chlorine problem in petrol but does not prove it and does not pass the replacement of the radiator and the egr valve under warranty. Come and see this fb page: "Toyota Hybrid and EGR valve problem"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/889368591881554/

[FROSTYBALLS]

7 minutes ago, elizac said:

Toyota Italy claims that is a chlorine problem in petrol but does not prove it and does not pass the replacement of the radiator and the egr valve under warranty. 

See my post of 27th August re chlorine in petrol.

At the end of the day, it is down to the importing organisation (in this case Toyota Italy) to decide on warranty claims. They don't have to prove that chlorine was evident in the petrol.

[elizac]

39 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

See my post of 27th August re chlorine in petrol.

At the end of the day, it is down to the importing organisation (in this case Toyota Italy) to decide on warranty claims. They don't have to prove that chlorine was evident in the petrol.

i know, but we found internal egr radiator cracks and toyota does not want to activate the warranty

[FROSTYBALLS]

5 minutes ago, elizac said:

i know, but we found internal egr radiator cracks and toyota does not want to activate the warranty

So is this the dealer or Toyota Italy?

[FROSTYBALLS]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:26 PM, FROSTYBALLS said:

Chlorine forms highly corrosive acids during combustion, which can reduce significantly the durability of the engine, fuel system and emission control system.

 

9 minutes ago, elizac said:

i know, but we found internal egr radiator cracks and toyota does not want to activate the warranty

So could the cracks be caused by the 'highly corrosive acids'?