E120 subframe/ crossmember replacing by beginner?

[gamingking]

Hi.

Is it possible for a complete novice to change out the front subframe / crossmember on a Corolla E120 station wagon from 2002. Does it requires any special tools other than the standard socket wrenches, WD40 and jacks?. As far as I can see it should be pretty straight forward as long as the bolts will come undone. And you remove it along with the control arms which then have to unmounted and put on the new part and then again mount the whole thing to the car. There are no bushings that require special tools because the old ones are on the control arm and they wont be removed right?

I am pretty much a novice when it comes to car repairs. But its not because I dont know how to handle tools. I have replaced a dampner in an old BMW E30 years ago. I just havent had many changes to mess around with my cars and now my corolla failed a MOT because of a little rust in the subframe.

To make sure there is no confusion, this is the car.
And this is the part that needs replacing

[oldcodger]

Hi,

You want to see this toyota tech doing a clutch replacement by removing the subframe, so you can see how it come out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hCL2s-Gv_0

( however the clutch and gearbox can be diy removed without removing the subframe)

Think we would use an engine beam support  from the start as looks like they allow the whole engine to be supported on just two mounts until they use the support under the sump.

Are you replacing the subframe due to damage or rust, if the latter  probably worth replacing the wishbones which are good value if you get the ones with the rubber bushes and balljoints included.

Be worth replacing the clutch while doing all that work .

 

[oldcodger]

Hi Again,

Missed your comment about the "little rust"  mot failure.

Well they all have some rust, just wonder if your mot tester has been over zealous ?  to fail it would indicate serious corrosion leading to failure soon, so wonder why an advisory was not given ?

If it literally is just surface rust , which mine has, might be easier to clean it up and use some rust proofer and put it in for a MOT at a council testing station where you will get an unbiased test.

As you can see from that video you really need a car lift to give access to easily remove the subframe, could be done with some high ramps , but you need a lot of support.

Might be worth asking another garage for a price to do the work, you can show them that video as to whats involved.

Out of interest, what about the rear axle beam ?  they seem to rust much quicker than the front subframe.

[gamingking]

Hi oldcodger and thank you for your answer.

First of all I am not from the UK so its not really a MOT but just a equivalent inspection about safety and pollution of the vehicle. I am sorry for my language. English is not my mother tongue so if there are any misunderstandings I am sorry.

I guess the subframe have had a stone struck it at some point because its a rust "puncture" - i.e. a single point where his little hammer went through. 99% of the subframe is fine and so is the back. Its just an unfortunate happening that needs mending. And I am not allowed to weld it so it needs to be replaced before it can pass the inspection.

I have asked two different shops and they want a lot of money for it. I dont quite understand why. The job seems simple enough and that is why I am on this forum asking if it needs any special tools or alighments or there of. Because then I will just do it myself if not.

I do not have acces to a lift. I only have a couple of jack stands.

[oldcodger]

Hi,

No worries, your english is probably better than  mine !   😀

Probably those shops are quoting on the high side as its not a typical job for them either, probably afraid they will have all sorts of unseen problems.

You will need better support than just jack stands, when changing the clutch used those stands along with some car ramps under the body in case the stands wobbled off etc.

If you can raise the back end up a bit that will  give a lot more workroom under the front.

Like when dropping the gearbox, you will ideally need a trolley jack with a diy spreader board to help lower and raise the subframe into position  as doubt you will have the room to do so by hand.

This 2004 model pdf shows the proceedure  though would expect its worth having a full alignment after as so much has been disconnected.

Plenty of penetrating fluild on the bolts first, usually find doing that the day before really helps.

Be interested to hear how you get on with such an unusual job for a Rolla.

 

 

 

 

 

26 - Front Suspension.pdf

[gamingking]

Thanks.

I see now that there are two different subframes. There are minor differences on them. You know how I would find out what part I need (without dissamebling the whole thing prior).

[oldcodger]

Assumed from that opening photo you already had a replacement subframe.

Not aware of the two types  ?  and not sure of your exact model /county as to what the differences could be ?

The problem with that part will be getting one thats sound enough as any second hand one is likely to be 20 years old as well and on the chance Toyota may have one new, will probably cost more than the cars worth ?

[gezhenry]

If it's only localised rust, but still structurally sound, could you not remove the rust, fill it with something appropriately strong, then hammerite/paint over the whole frame, then take it somewhere else for re-testing?

[Teknow]

Quick question about the Front Suspension Crossmember Sub–assy (subframe)....

Are there any bushes that need pressing into the subframe itself?  I'm looking at a replacement (non genuine Toyota) subframe for an E12 2007 Corolla 1.4 VVTi and the pictures don't look as if there are bushes fitted.   

[gamingking]

On 2/13/2021 at 5:17 PM, oldcodger said:

Assumed from that opening photo you already had a replacement subframe.

Not aware of the two types  ?  and not sure of your exact model /county as to what the differences could be ?

The problem with that part will be getting one thats sound enough as any second hand one is likely to be 20 years old as well and on the chance Toyota may have one new, will probably cost more than the cars worth ?

No that is just a picture from the web. I used that so we all knew we talked about the same part of the car that needed replacing (language barrier).

I have since I started investigating this found two different parts that both say they are a Toyota E12/E120 subframe (pictures attached). There are minor difference but they are not interchangeable.

I dont know how to look up what part I need without removing the part from the car first.
 

On 2/13/2021 at 6:53 PM, gezhenry said:

If it's only localised rust, but still structurally sound, could you not remove the rust, fill it with something appropriately strong, then hammerite/paint over the whole frame, then take it somewhere else for re-testing?

No can do. It is ilegal to weld it as it is a part of the crumble zone of the car. By welding it it will be stronger than OEM spec. It is also listed on the report what was wrong so they will obviously check how it was fixed. But thanks for your answer none the less.

[gezhenry]

Was thinking maybe if it was a smallish area trying to fill it with something strong like an epoxy or something similarly strong as opposed to maybe welding, if it was still safe, and then painting the whole subframe so it would all look like a new frame?

Are there any other of the same cars in breakers yards in your area of the world you could try and take a frame off, and then clean up, to see if a swap would be a diy-able proposition for you first?

[gamingking]

Having a hard time unwrenching the steering rack. I cant find place for my wrench 😕

[oldcodger]

In that video link posted earlier at 1m.50s in , the guy uses what looks like a  socket on a swivel head wrench or a wrench with a universal joint.

The Haynes manual says to remove the steering rack, drop the subframe and then undo the 4 bolts ! but that means disconnecting all other parts of the rack.

Sounds like you have got a replacement subframe, new or second hand ?

[gamingking]

Yes I found a very nice subframe that matches what I saw under the car (because of the different models of subframes). I am lucky to have bought a home where the previous owner had a car well, so I can use that to get a bit better access than just the jack stands.

Ya I am trying to use a universal joint, just cant seem to make it fit and rotate it the same time. So the Haynes manual says to leave it on the subframe. But wouldnt that require me to bleed the system (I imaging its hydralic)? I would also need a press to get the joint of the steering of the wheel hub, wouldnt I?

In the video he makes it look very easy to get the right steering rack bolts off. When I watch it frame by frame it seems he has a wrench that looks like a universal joint, but it goes down more than 90 degrees. So he can sort of wrench from below the point of the bolt.

[oldcodger]

The problem with removing the rack with the subframe is that all the steering geometery will have to be redone, though even if you let it in situ, just dropping the subframe expect you will still need to have it all checked out anyway.

The tie rod ends should split apart with  simple ball joint separator tool or even a crack with a hammer, if doing that probably worth replacing the end joints anyway.

Though our subframe seems sound, we have alread repleced both wishbones which were corroding, they came with all rubber bushes and bottom ball joint

Think this is the type of  variable angle ratchet wrench they use in that video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0MpL1cSHUo

 

[gamingking]

Ah okay. Thanks for you knowledge.

Ya I think I need the angled wrench. Or some kind atleast for this to be feasable...

Is there a reason you cant just undo the nut from underneath the subframe and leave the bolts in the rack?

[oldcodger]

Yes, you need an adjustable angle wrench with the important ratchet function .

Can only assume the Nuts for those 4 bolts are captivated within the subframe otherewise it would be a simple job to undo things ?

[gamingking]

I just want to say thanks for all the help. I have replaced the subframe now as a total amateur. I did it myself but of cause had a second person help with the physical replacement of the unit itself as you cant hold it while wrenching and getting all those bolts into the right sockets all by your self. WIth a gearbox jack (I dont know what you call it) I could see myself do this. and much easier.

I have definitely gotten a lot more confident replacing parts on my car now after this operation also because the exensive intimacy I now have with the different parts and what the do on the front wheel assembly. Which - along with the enigne it self - must be some of the more complicated stuff on a older front wheeled and relative simple car.

The car seems to go straight and no apperent slugginess in the steering or handling. But I guess this will become apperent with further time as I drive more in it.

Also thanks for the repair manual outtake. Without it I dont think I would have had the confidens to do the operation. Is it from the Haynes manuel? It funny to see that the subframe was a different unit than the book showed. It uses the old model subframe (the book that is - which is the top one of the two i showed further up). My wagon from 2002 uses the new one and it uses a bracket to fasten the back of the subframe to the chassis.

I will definitely buy repair manuals for future projects as I can see how big of a help they can be.

[oldcodger]

Good job ! 

Though it feels like its driving smoothly, might be worth getting a steering  alignment check  done rather that waiting for the tyres to wear unevenly.

You can get a lot of parts details from these sites  -

part numbers are from the Toyota EPC (Electronics Parts Catalogue) you can also look them up online on sites like megazip, toyodiy and Toyota.epc-data

And there's paid access via Toyota-tech.eu

Have sent you a PM .

[gamingking]

Thanks! Couldnt have done it without your help.  So it just passed MOT and I can now (hopefully) have it for 2 more years without any big problems (fingers crossed).

However.. When I drive over speed bumps with a decent speed 30mph/50kmh there seems to be a squeeking sound coming from the front now. Its sounds "rubbery". My guess would be the bushings in the wishbones that connect to the subframe. They were pretty shot and I reused the old wishbones because I could not find any decent ones locally and I was under a deadline to get it through the MOT. I am going to replace them anyway when the weather gets a bit warmer.

Any guesses to what else it could be. Its NOT a *cloank/clank* sound (like metal stuff hitting each other) but rather a bouncy rubbery squeek sound. As said I cannot provoke it by pushing down the corner of the vehicle - like from a shock absorber. It needs to really be hit with some energy.

[oldcodger]

Hi,

Good news again ! 

Typically you can get a complete wishbone with both rubber joints and new ball joint for a similar price to the individual parts which are not easy to fit anyway.

Expect you have done up the parts ie the wishbone joints etc with them in a jacked up position ?

However that preloads the bushes in a false position,  best if you fit the bolts hand tight and then lower the car onto the wheels in a normal stance, then torque up the bolts as needed, the bushes are then in a neutral position, takes a bit of crawling under but can be done.

The antiroll bar bushes are another squeak / knocking point , as could be, dare I say,  the steering rack mountings ? though you should be able to feel any play by rocking the road wheels.

You could try spraying a bit of washing up liquid onto the bushes which acts as a temporary lubricant and might help identify which is causing the problem, the wishbone rear horizonal bushes can be a common wear item.

Cannot be anything serious as your tester would have seen it, but worth a good check over as with such a big job its so easy to have missed something when rebuilding.

Did you see the PM I sent earlier, check the Messages Envelope on the top right hand of the screen.

[gamingking]

Ya, just before I read your message I read that the bushing bolts need to be fasten AFTER its on the ground - just as you say. So that makes sense.

It was also in the repair manual, but I was in such a eager to test it I just totally forgot about it. Will check if is not just those.

Thanks for the PM.

[TonyHSD]

22 minutes ago, gamingking said:

Ya, just before I read your message I read that the bushing bolts need to be fasten AFTER its on the ground - just as you say. So that makes sense.

It was also in the repair manual, but I was in such a eager to test it I just totally forgot about it. Will check if is not just those.

Thanks for the PM.

Hi, yes this is ultra important and I believe is the issue you have, you will need to pre set correct tension on both wishbone bushes and stabiliser bar bushes. If you have no access to a ramp with wheels on, you can jack up and put the car on stands , then with hydraulic jack lift up each individual wishbone and when the car is entirely supported by the wishbone and off the stand then torque the bushes bolts., do this side by side. And for the stabiliser bar bushes you will need to undo the bolts slightly, put both wheels on ramps equally levelled and tight up the bolts to pre set tension on the bushes. 👍 If you don’t do it right the bushes on both places may get damaged, plus the annoying noise. 😊 

[gamingking]

21 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, yes this is ultra important and I believe is the issue you have, you will need to pre set correct tension on both wishbone bushes and stabiliser bar bushes. If you have no access to a ramp with wheels on, you can jack up and put the car on stands , then with hydraulic jack lift up each individual wishbone and when the car is entirely supported by the wishbone and off the stand then torque the bushes bolts., do this side by side. And for the stabiliser bar bushes you will need to undo the bolts slightly, put both wheels on ramps equally levelled and tight up the bolts to pre set tension on the bushes. 👍 If you don’t do it right the bushes on both places may get damaged, plus the annoying noise. 😊 

Thank you.

[gamingking]

So I went through all the bolts to torque them correctly, which was good as some of them was pretty loose (eventhou I left them pretty tight).

And I also did the wishbone bolts while the car was sitting on the wheels and torqued them correctly. But its still making that sound when I drive over something.

I havnt done the stabiliser bar bushings as I dont see how I should be able to tighten them while it being mounted to the car with the subframe installed - let alone with the car on its wheels.

My guess can only be that either it IS the stabiliser bar bushes - I dont see how to do this. Or its just that the old wishbones bushes were so shotty that they only worked because they had degraded into their position on the old subframe, but being installed on the new one make them sit arkward and not holding up when pushed to the max over a bump at medium speed. I am going to replace the wishbones none the less when the weather gets better, so maybe it will all fix it self.