Brake Pads & Rotors - OEM vs Others

[Avalon]

Just now, Yugguy1970 said:

These are not sports cars.  Any OEM quality parts will do.  I have used drilled Brembo disks on cars before but I used them for their look, they provided no extra braking power.  

You should be able to get at least two, if not three pad changes in before needing a disc change.

All IMO of course 😁

Nobody has suggested drilled (or grooved) discs would improve stopping power, if you reduce the surface area that is in contact with the pad, you reduce friction, but you provide an easier path for the hot gasses/dust produced to escape and the pad surface to be ‘swept’. In reality, they usually just fill with dust over time, but they look different and some people think that makes them look cool.

To answer earlier points, the only relevant standard here is ECE R90, and all UK road going pads are required to conform to it.

My last set of Ultimax II’s were on a 4.2, the reformulated profile sounded like it would be ideal for my usage and I actually want to use EBC pads as they sponsor things I enjoy, it’s been a few years, so why not? I fitted them at 117k (with new callipers) and then replaced them at 126.5k… on a high performance track car that wouldn’t be unreasonable, on something that was doing the school run/tip run with only 60% of the power going to the front and being reasonably low on power, not so much, though obviously weight plays a part. GreenStuff dust is the least of your problems, they fade horribly when pushed. Padgid/Mintex/Textar (all TMD brands) last way longer and perform at least as well for the same money, same with BluePrint I had prior on the same car.

As to OE (Toyota) pads, Google suggests Akebono, but that may not apply in all markets, let’s not forget, they don’t all roll out of Japan and I would imagine Toyota has diversified its supply chain for other markets.

[Yugguy1970]

I wasn't suggesting using drilled, just commenting that car enthusiasts often get hung up on using this that and the other type of pads etc. but for everyday use any OEM quality is fine.

[TonyHSD]

I use EBC Ultimax myself and highly recommend those to anyone, they have great braking performance, nice bite feel to the pedal when bedded in correctly, low on dust and last long enough, they look and smell exactly like Bosch, textar, paggid, all well known quality stuff.
 

Note to all hybrids owners:

- Do not use performance brake parts and pads specifically because these require high temperature to work and hybrid cars has “cold”brakes, the temperature of the discs may never be over 40c° no matter how fast you drive , how long or downhills, the regenerative braking  takes the hard work. 

[Kojac]

57 minutes ago, AisinW said:

I agree with the drilled rotors, they are gimmick and cosmetics but really reduce the durability of the rotors.  Plain rotors with coating is the best solution for any street cars.  The main problems with the rotors are corrosion and uneven wear from many various reasons.  As long as it is high quality steel, proper thickness and weight, and coated/painted, they are worth upgrade.  The OEM Advics rotors are usually painted too now.   The rust from the outside and inner diameters of the rotors creep up below the surface and caused rust and bulging. It will cause the pads wear unevenly on the edges and potentially cause vibration when the rotors are hot.   

I only replace the rotors if it has uneven wear, below minimum thickness, or bad corrosions. Normal rust on the surface are fine. I always check the weight of the new rotors. They must be the same or heavier than the OEM.  Cheaper rotors sometimes has less density and lighter. 

What is your assessment of the zimmerman's you fitted? 
 

Is the material density good? Would you choose them again?

[AisinW]

43 minutes ago, Kojac said:

What is your assessment of the zimmerman's you fitted? 
 

Is the material density good? Would you choose them again?

The cheapest Zimmermann rotors are actually the best for street cars, they are not drilled but fully Zn-coated.  It has the same exact weight as Brembo, TRW, or Bosch discs/rotors.   The materials is great and bed really well with AISIN pads.  No noticeable dust, about the same as the old pads from Advics and much less than the rear original Bosch pads/rotors.  The wear on the Zimmermann rotors is flawless, very smooth border and the untouched parts are fully protected/coated without any peeling area.  I am impressed with the price range and German built quality. 

[AisinW]

Yes, Tony is absolutely right. You should go with ECR90 certified pads and rotors.  They are within 20% performance of the original parts.  Any of them will be fine. GG ratings on Aisin means it has coefficient of friction  G rating in cold and G when it is hot.  Brembo has GF (less friction when it gets hot).  

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 hours ago, Kojac said:

Some toyota dealerships are fitting OPTIMAX range

These would be from the Toyota Optifit range - which are cheaper than OE parts. Toyota have contracted with a number of manufacturers to provide this range - for example Textar for brake pads, Trico for Wiper Blades, etc.

No different to some other manufacturers who also provide an alternative to OE parts.

[AisinW]

There are 2 different classes of Dealer parts.  1.  Original Part that comes with the car with regular part number. 

2. Aftermarket part that are re-boxed in Toyota box. They are usually with redbox and contain ...YZZ ...  in their part numbers. That includes Textar brake pads instead of Advics or Bosch original pads.  These YZZ part number are significantly cheaper but not the same as the original parts.  

Anytime we see YZZ part number, they are locally supplied that Toyota sell through dealer with Toyota box.  Not as good as the original, but do not pay too much for it, because it is just like other aftermarket parts with decent quality.   Some parts like EGR valve is cheaper with part number from TSB that are sold as a kit than EGR alone  Toyota Egr Valve Kit 04004-58137 Kind of weird. 

[AisinW]

104570_TSB-0027-16.pdf

[AisinW]

@kojak I just read my MOT results for the braking performance. Before I replaced the rotors and pads, it was at 500 daN in Jan 2021. After I replaced them (Zimmermann+Aisin pads) in 2021 mid,  now it is 770daN.  the rear are still the same reading at 225.  I indeed feel the difference when going downhill in the Alps in the past 2 years. The braking force is not fading  after long braking and no squeaking noise either.  Before the replacement, it was fine when the brake disc is still cool but start vibrating after going downhill more than 10 minutes straight. I reduced the vibration by putting to B mode, engine braking.  But now, I barely ever need to change to B unless the Battery is very-very full and the cruise control automatically The front brake disc can get really hot after long downhill marathon.  I believe it reaches more than 150C but less than 400C but I cannot smell any fault smell from the pads or brake area. 

[farenheit]

Ok, I'm still confused

I have a 2010 hybrid tspirit and the front discs and pads need changing.

Starting to squeel now!

To start with, when looking around for front discs, I'm finding 2 different measurements! And my local Toyota dealer just won't answer the phone!!

Secondly, which brand would be recommended for a hybrid since it uses degenerative breaking?

I came across some mtec and mintex set, would they suffice?

Would really appreciate the help, I'm not a mechanic of any kind, would just like to get the rights bits to take to my local mechanic to fit.

Many Thanks 

[TonyHSD]

Hi, 

The disc size on your car will depend on brake system and in your case very likely are the bigger one. Here what I use since February 2020 and these are high quality aftermarket. The price is also the cheapest anywhere. Blue Print ADT343206 Brake Disc Set (2 Brake Disc) front, internally ventilated, No. of Holes 5 https://amzn.eu/d/cpdDWo9
Good quality brake pads to match the disc are ebc ultimax here cheapest https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/312058372636?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=24W8jqqNSka&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=p34UK1z2T4m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

or if too expensive you can look for blueprint pads or febi https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334758858325?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=yi1ojZncSxy&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=p34UK1z2T4m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY 

Only look at the front wheels and check if your discs looks has the same shape and size but if it’s a t spirit with 17” wheels I believe they do. 
Here how they look when fitted and after 105000 miles later 👍

The important bits when fitting:  
Clean all surfaces to bare metal free from rust, grease and debris. Clean and lube slider pins with silicone grease and make sure pistons return freely on each callipers. Change brake fluid too. 👍

[farenheit]

Please delete

[farenheit]

2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, 

The disc size on your car will depend on brake system and in your case very likely are the bigger one. Here what I use since February 2020 and these are high quality aftermarket. The price is also the cheapest anywhere. Blue Print ADT343206 Brake Disc Set (2 Brake Disc) front, internally ventilated, No. of Holes 5 https://amzn.eu/d/cpdDWo9
Good quality brake pads to match the disc are ebc ultimax here cheapest https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/312058372636?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=24W8jqqNSka&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=p34UK1z2T4m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

or if too expensive you can look for blueprint pads or febi https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334758858325?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=yi1ojZncSxy&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=p34UK1z2T4m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY 

Only look at the front wheels and check if your discs looks has the same shape and size but if it’s a t spirit with 17” wheels I believe they do. 
Here how they look when fitted and after 105000 miles later 👍

The important bits when fitting:  
Clean all surfaces to bare metal free from rust, grease and debris. Clean and lube slider pins with silicone grease and make sure pistons return freely on each callipers. Change brake fluid too. 👍

If these will definitely fit, I will go ahead and purchase these. Don't want to end up with parts that don't fit.

All I know is, it has 17" rims lol

[TonyHSD]

If you unsure, just take a picture of the front disc and share it here and I will let you know for sure. I had same trouble figuring out which ones are, done brakes a couple of times since then so I know which one are correct just by the look of them, these are the larger ones at 290mm akebono advics brake system. 👍

[farenheit]

12 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

If you unsure, just take a picture of the front disc and share it here and I will let you know for sure. I had same trouble figuring out which ones are, done brakes a couple of times since then so I know which one are correct just by the look of them, these are the larger ones at 290mm akebono advics brake system. 👍

 

[TonyHSD]

5 minutes ago, farenheit said:

 

Yes, same as mine, the parts will definitely fit your car. 
Your ones look good to me, why do you want to change?
Mot advisory or a mechanic recommended? 

[farenheit]

3 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Yes, same as mine, the parts will definitely fit your car. 
Your ones look good to me, why do you want to change?
Mot advisory or a mechanic recommended? 

It's been an advisory for a while and now I get squeeling and grinding 😕

[TonyHSD]

3 minutes ago, farenheit said:

It's been an advisory for a while and now I get squeeling and grinding 😕

Ok, then you can do with these parts or anything else you like. Just use the parts that I shared as reference for the correct parts you need., but these blueprint and ebc pads are good one.
 I had replaced the rear brakes two weeks ago. Covered over 1000 miles since and not fully bed in yet but it seems they are doing well and the discs started to polish nicely. 

[farenheit]

Purchased your recommendations, now to sit tight and hopefully get them fitted this bank holiday weekend.

[TonyHSD]

5 minutes ago, farenheit said:

Purchased your recommendations, now to sit tight and hopefully get them fitted this bank holiday weekend.

Cool. Let us know what you think about the parts and everything, some pics will be nice. Thanks 

[AisinW]

I think all brake pads in europe are pretty much equal because of ECE R90 standard. They must be within +- 15% performance of the OEM. In short, choose the one that resist to rust for brake disc especially for hybrid with lack of scrubbing from regenerative braking.  For pads, anything with ECER90 are decent, only the dust level are may be different. I am wondering if other brands besides original OEM Bosch rear brake pads produce tons of dust but I am very hesitate to try because my brake pads are still 6-7mm, relatively low wear and very even. The rear disc is normal with surface rust but the contact surface are all bedding nicely without rust unlike the front one.  The brake disc/rotor thickness is also ok. They are 8.7mm out of 9mm (new), and the minimum allowed thickness is 7mm. 

I cleaned the brake calipers pads mounting point once. It was full of rust and the pads occasionaly refuse to recess after braking. I  lubricate all the plates and contact points to reduce rust build up and noise.  The front brake performance increases to 770daN from 500 daN after brake rotors and pads replacement from old rusty one. The rear are still good at total of 450daN. Rear brakes are always weaker than the front brakes. The results are from the MOT in the past 3 years. 

[jcps001]

15 hours ago, AisinW said:

For pads, anything with ECER90 are decent, only the dust level are may be different. I am wondering if other brands besides original OEM Bosch rear brake pads produce tons of dust

Well, previously I was using a cheaper (but good) pads brand "Japanparts". It was a nice pad, no noise, almost no dust at all. But those things didn't brake as well as zimmermann or aisin pads.

I removed those from a Yaris (replaced them with aisin pads) and from an Auris (replaced them with zimmermann pads). The difference in braking is significant. Very siginificant. The aisins and zimmermans brake better, have more bite, but those things produce a lot more dust than Japanparts ones.

As far as noise is concerned, those things are also a tad noisier sometimes.

Certification is an assurance of quality and safety, but you should look at the pads friction index (two letters, usually on the pad's backplate).

I don't remember the friction index on the aisins, but the zimmermanns have "GG". The Japanparts don't show it, but  I guess it might be something like "EF" or something.

[AisinW]

You are right Jose @jcps001.  Aisin and Zimmermann are GG rating. (TRW, Bosch, Brembo, Ferrodo) are GF or lower (less grip when hot).  However, the brake pads and disc as long as it is truly certified EC ER90, they are safe.  Japanparts are not good in general. I bought cabin filter from them and they are very flimsy once exposed to any moistures or water unlike Bosch/denso.  I found that Japanparts pads are NOT  EC-R90 certified, so  they are well below top brands (Aisin, Brembo, Pagid, Bosch, Zimmermann, TRW, etc.) 

I like Zimmermann, Hella Pagid, and any rotors that are coated.  I know that Blueprint rotors are really cheap but EC-ER90 certified.   So, check the certification number before buying any brake parts.

[farenheit]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:37 PM, TonyHSD said:

Cool. Let us know what you think about the parts and everything, some pics will be nice. Thanks 

Got my discs on the weekend but still waiting on the pads. Won't be till the half term now as I won't get time till then.