Who has the right of way here?

[flash22]

I know that road all too well, it's one of those what if situations, IMO there are too many driver aids in cars today

A bit more forward planning required on your part and reading the road further ahead

[AndrueC]

FWIW you should try that scenario on the A55 through Colwyn Bay.

Speed limit is 50 mph and people are joining at 50mph. Then there's a few people insistent on doing 60mph or 70mph.

[Timmon]

Most has been said already. I agree that you, in principle, had right of way. So you were in the right, and it is fortunate that you were still alert despite using Openpilot, and were able to stay safe and protect the other driver as well, who clearly was not alert, or driving aggressively, ie a very bad driver.

The problem you encountered in this case is that you undertook the van prior to the incident. This meant that when you had to take evasive action , you also put the van at risk. Had you held back and not undertaken, and / or moved to the right behind the van, and eventually moved again to overtake the van on the right, the Mercedes would have entered the motorway safely, and the incident would not have happened. 

I was always taught to be wary of other drivers. Blind spots in mirrors, distractions etc, cause other drivers to make errors. And in this instance, it was clear the Mercedes was not slowing down, and was ging to pull out onto the motorway whatever you did, whether you took  evasive action or not. And Openpilot did not help you much by the look of it, which is why these systems are worrying to me. I fear some drivers will start to rely on them too much.

Stay safe, glad you avoided a bad accident.

 

[john p williams]

That is a great Post Tim.

We tend to overlook the fact that the person always responsible for the car, is the Driver and NEVER the Technology.

[Timmon]

27 minutes ago, john p williams said:

That is a great Post Tim.

We tend to overlook the fact that the person always responsible for the car, is the Driver and NEVER the Technology.

Thanks John. Yes indeed, the technology is in it's infancy, and is not reliable at all right now. Yet an increasing number of owners are testing it.

I am all for technology, and I am sure in the future we will depend on it to get us safely from A to B. But that time is not now.

I'm not sure it should be legal to add software to any old car and use it. I'm surprised a car is still insurable with such modifications, unless the car manufacturer approves of such modifications. It will be unlucky to be hit by a modified car and find their insurance is invalid.

[mrjoeblack]

Just want to thank you all for sharing your thoughts and advice! 🤛

This certainly exposes a weak point in Openpilot (as well as almost any other ACC system out there), and teaches me a lesson about never to be complacent about its performance and always staying alert and preparing to intervene as early as possible.
In fact, that's why I made the video in the first place and, before I posted here, I shared it with the Openpilot community on Discord to try to increase OP users' awareness of this issue.

I also learned about "undertaking", which was sth. I never thought about in the past. And that's great, as the discovery of such issues marks the first step towards addressing them.

[TonyHSD]

2 minutes ago, truantotter said:

Just want to thank you all for sharing your thoughts and advice! 🤛

This certainly exposes a weak point in Openpilot (as well as almost any other ACC system out there), and teaches me a lesson about never to be complacent about its performance and always staying alert and preparing to intervene as early as possible.
In fact, that's why I made the video in the first place and, before I posted here, I shared it with the Openpilot community on Discord to try to increase OP users' awareness of this issue.

I also learned about "undertaking", which was sth. I never thought about in the past. And that's great, as the discovery of such issues marks the first step towards addressing them.

Thanks for sharing the video. As captain Joe says : ” Good pilot 👨‍✈️ is always learning “ same applies for us, Good drivers always learn something new 👍. Safe drive is the most important. 🚘👌🚙

[Catlover]

10 hours ago, Timh21 said:

As a Biker as well as a car driver I tend to look at things differently. Being in the right wont keep me alive. Police Instructor said to me, If you have an accident, YOU, took your eye off the ball. Slip roads are inherently dangerous, I will always try and move into the middle lane if possible when approaching incoming slip roads. At the 22 second marker in your video when the Merc comes into view I personally would have started slowing. AI (Artificial Intel) has a long way to go before It matches 40 years of Instinct and what if.

I agree with Tim.   I used to be a biker until 1986.  I was an instructor for new motorcyclists, with Cheshire County Council on a volutary basis (expenses only). I had to be trained by Cheshire police motorcyclists. One thing they got into our heads was "Ride like a COP", COP being Concentration, Observation, Planning. This COP applies to car driving as well, indeed all road users including pedestrians.  If you not Concentrating your Observation is not there, and if lacking Observation Planning is therefore kaput.  In line for a disasterous situation. The Instructors job was to get this over to the trainees. Added to that (COP) was Anticipation. You have to Anticipate what other road users are going to do, it was like having a 6th sense. Many times I could have made a legitimate lawful move on the road, but a  little message in the brain said "just hold back, be safe", and many times a road user in front then made a move, and if I had done what I first intended would easily ended up me being on the floor, in hospital or a mortuary. A 26th" sense saved the day many a time. Maybe Tim can relate the same.                       

They say "Patience is a virtue", it certainly is something EVERY motorist should have in abundance - Patience.  Like in the example we discussing in this thread, the car on the slip road was in the wrong, very possibly not Concentrating so drive like a COP was non existant. But the poster was truly lacking patience by continuing on a collision course until virtually the last second. Any wrong move at that time could have spelt disaster, maybe loss of life, but definately thousands of pounds of damage to at least 2 nice cars. Patience would have been good in that situation from Truantrotter, a lot to gain and only a few seconds lost.

[Bernard Foy]

A lot of people on this forum remembering Highway Patrol starring Broderick Crawford, I thought that it was ironic that he should have been chosen to play the role as most of his previous roles in the films was playing a gangster 😆. I guess that shows our vintage. Like (Catlover) Joe I too was a biker and my first rule of the road was self  preservation, patience, and safety. And it’s worked well so far.🚗

[Catlover]

I would just like to say........ truantotter (MJ) has taken some (justified) flack in comments made by many different posters but has been gracious and humble in his response/replies. Well done MJ.

[AndrueC]

3 hours ago, Catlover said:

I would just like to say........ truantotter (MJ) has taken some (justified) flack in comments made by many different posters but has been gracious and humble in his response/replies. Well done MJ.

Indeed. It's difficult not to be sensitive about driving if you care about it (as we all should) and the fact they cared enough to post a question and accepted the result speaks volumes.

I've had very few near misses over the years thankfully. My later driving style probably helps with that but in my younger days I was a bit more of a prat (Llandudno to Berkhamsted in 3.5 hours using the A41 through Shropshire in the mid 90s affirms to that). But throughout my driving career I've applied the same principal as I do to programming. If something goes wrong the first thing to do is work out why then try and come up with a solution to make it less likely to happen again.

Sadly the solution is sometimes 'get a brain transplant' 😞

[Catlover]

3 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Sadly the solution is sometimes 'get a brain transplant' 😞

Form an orderly queue behind me please. 😎

[Timh21]

On 3/6/2021 at 4:52 PM, Catlover said:

I agree with Tim.   I used to be a biker until 1986.  I was an instructor for new motorcyclists, with Cheshire County Council on a volutary basis (expenses only). I had to be trained by Cheshire police motorcyclists. One thing they got into our heads was "Ride like a COP", COP being Concentration, Observation, Planning. This COP applies to car driving as well, indeed all road users including pedestrians.  If you not Concentrating your Observation is not there, and if lacking Observation Planning is therefore kaput.  In line for a disasterous situation. The Instructors job was to get this over to the trainees. Added to that (COP) was Anticipation. You have to Anticipate what other road users are going to do, it was like having a 6th sense. Many times I could have made a legitimate lawful move on the road, but a  little message in the brain said "just hold back, be safe", and many times a road user in front then made a move, and if I had done what I first intended would easily ended up me being on the floor, in hospital or a mortuary. A 26th" sense saved the day many a time. Maybe Tim can relate the same.                       

They say "Patience is a virtue", it certainly is something EVERY motorist should have in abundance - Patience.  Like in the example we discussing in this thread, the car on the slip road was in the wrong, very possibly not Concentrating so drive like a COP was non existant. But the poster was truly lacking patience by continuing on a collision course until virtually the last second. Any wrong move at that time could have spelt disaster, maybe loss of life, but definately thousands of pounds of damage to at least 2 nice cars. Patience would have been good in that situation from Truantrotter, a lot to gain and only a few seconds lost.

And Im still a biker, since 1975. Ive done various courses, some with police. They now talk about TUG,  Take, Use, Give. (All to do with information). Im convinced im a better car driver because of being a biker

[Rambler56]

16 hours ago, Timh21 said:

And Im still a biker, since 1975. Ive done various courses, some with police. They now talk about TUG,  Take, Use, Give. (All to do with information). Im convinced im a better car driver because of being a biker

Whilst I passed my test in 1974 I've never taken a 'car' test.  I did what was called a 'duo test' and trained and passed HGV3 (military Bedford RL with crash gearbox, double declutching was mandatory, manual non-cancelling indicator switch in the centre of the dash so a long stretch to operate) and the car licence was 'thrown in' with the HGV licence.  The key difference, apart from the vehicle size, was that the driving test was a full 2 hours including a compulsory hill start, and complex forward/reverse manoeuvres and brake test were carried out before the 2 hour test.  It certainly gave me a different perspective regarding spacial awareness regarding other road users. Overtaking cyclists etc during training gave me sweaty palms for sure!

[Catlover]

Les, a bit different to driving your ultra modern Corolla then!
I was offered a drive of a Seddon Atkinson artic unit, it would have been legal with my car licence, but I turned it down on safety basis, that is other road users may not have been safe.                        
I did some training to enable me to take an emergency unit to remote sites - it was Land Rover fitted with a 5th wheel and an artic trailer (mobile planning/rest room). That was interesting. I had some experience of reversing with a trailer behind (transporting my grass track racing bikes), so I did well on reversing.           
But a crash gearbox-double declutching....... rather you then me.

 

[Rambler56]

2 hours ago, Catlover said:

         
But a crash gearbox-double declutching....... rather you then me.

 

Even if you took your test in a vehicle with synchro gears it was mandatory that you double declutched during training and on test. Land rovers at the time did not have synchro 1st to 2nd, Bedford QLs, RLs and AEC 10 tonners etc were all crash boxes. If you couldn't double you would have had severe problems driving a lot of the vehicles (a lots of the vehicles were WW2 onwards and still in service (for RL think the Green Goddess model fire engine).  On my test I was driving around areas of Portsmouth and Southsea, including the residential areas with cars parked up both sides of the road and only enough space to get the wagon through.  It was also chucking it down with rain to make matters worse as the RL has a split windscreen with useless independent wipers (that you have to reach over to activate/deactivate and they're at the top of the split screens).  The first car I actually drove was a Hillman Imp, opposite end of the scale in many ways!

[Timh21]

4 hours ago, Rambler56 said:

Even if you took your test in a vehicle with synchro gears it was mandatory that you double declutched during training and on test. Land rovers at the time did not have synchro 1st to 2nd, Bedford QLs, RLs and AEC 10 tonners etc were all crash boxes. If you couldn't double you would have had severe problems driving a lot of the vehicles (a lots of the vehicles were WW2 onwards and still in service (for RL think the Green Goddess model fire engine).  On my test I was driving around areas of Portsmouth and Southsea, including the residential areas with cars parked up both sides of the road and only enough space to get the wagon through.  It was also chucking it down with rain to make matters worse as the RL has a split windscreen with useless independent wipers (that you have to reach over to activate/deactivate and they're at the top of the split screens).  The first car I actually drove was a Hillman Imp, opposite end of the scale in many ways!

Blimey, another thing we have in common. First car I bought was a 1973 Grasshopper Green Sunbeam Sport ( A flash Imp with twin carbs). Bought it for £80 in 1981 with a failed clutch, had engine out and clutch replaced following weekend, actually only needed a new Carbon Thrust Bearing (Remember those). I passed my bike test in 1977, but didnt do car test till 1981

[Rambler56]

21 minutes ago, Timh21 said:

Blimey, another thing we have in common. First car I bought was a 1973 Grasshopper Green Sunbeam Sport ( A flash Imp with twin carbs). Bought it for £80 in 1981 with a failed clutch, had engine out and clutch replaced following weekend, actually only needed a new Carbon Thrust Bearing (Remember those). I passed my bike test in 1977, but didnt do car test till 1981

Did the Sunbeam Sport have an aluminium block as per the Imp?  Technically advanced at the time but suffered massive overheating problems , oh and body rot. The cost of a new Imp (Caribbean Blue) in 1974 by the way was £875 and no pence!  Thrust bearings, carbon ones being quite advanced back then, were always an issue due to drivers holding the clutch in for 'long' periods e.g. sitting at lights or in jams, instead of going into neutral and letting the clutch up.  I still cringe to this day if I'm in a car and I see someone doing it.  

[Timh21]

17 minutes ago, Rambler56 said:

Did the Sunbeam Sport have an aluminium block as per the Imp?  Technically advanced at the time but suffered massive overheating problems , oh and body rot. The cost of a new Imp (Caribbean Blue) in 1974 by the way was £875 and no pence!  Thrust bearings, carbon ones being quite advanced back then, were always an issue due to drivers holding the clutch in for 'long' periods e.g. sitting at lights or in jams, instead of going into neutral and letting the clutch up.  I still cringe to this day if I'm in a car and I see someone doing it.  

Yeah, engine was identical really. Mine got seriously modded though, with Lotus rotoflex couplings for the driveshafts after I chanced upon a Davrian  Big Valve cylinder head and twin webers to replace the Strombergs, oh and a lump of concrete under the bonnet so it could steer😀