Denso/Bosch injectors (Corolla E12 2003)

[Adrien]

Hello everyone !

2 years ago, I swapped the intake manifold and throttle body on my Corolla. I'm very happy about it, it runs perfectly fine and smooth. (see thread "Upgrading 3Zzfe To1Zzfe")

I decided to swap my injectors for celica ones (Denso ref. 23250-22040), not to gain some power, but to run on E85. However, I was so sure of myself, I didn't checked my car had Denso injectors and... it didn't... 😅

Stock I have Bosch ref. 02155936 (Toyota ref. 23209-0D020), and I wondered if the brands are interchangeable. I tried and injector plug will accept them, but will ECU ?

Thanks for your help !

 

 

[flash22]

Did you run e85 ? A car of that age, the ethanol will eat the fuel system, im not even sure the system will be able to recognize the E85 as it doesn't have a flex sensor, so it can map the fuel or even calculate the ethanol content

looking at images side by side they are nothing alike

 

[Adrien]

Yes I did try to run at ~E56 for 2000km and it's more or less OK, power a little low, CEL with higher ethanol content. This car is compatible with E10 so I don't believe fuel system wouldn't resist E85. Actually, njectors excepted, parts are the same for south america market where I they can run up to E100.

Here in france we have only E10 or 98 available for something like 10 years, so the vast majority of cars run on E10. E85 is 0,70€ / E10 is 1,50€...

From searching a lot on the topic I know that with stock engine some prius owners run on E85, 100% for some of them. I read about Celica and MR2 owners too.

ECU is self learning so it should adapt according to ethanol content. I closely monitored my LTFTs when running ethanol blend, and they are very close to the theorical enrichment (LTFT +19,5% @ e56 - theorical was +18,5%)

[Adrien]

OK, so I checked today, and after seeing Bosch injectors I started to doubt about the ECU. Like I remembered it is indeed the Denso one, not the Bosch one, even though the injectors are from Bosch.

So I decided to try it and swapped the injectors, startup was OK ,idle OK, driving OK. Car is objectively smoother at low revs : I was able to drive in 4th or 5th uphill on light throttle, where I usually couldn't go faster in 3rd or 4th with more throttle. Maybe the fact that injectors are new, or 4-point vs 12-point ?

Did not test on E85 yet, I want to make sure everything is fine and mileage is similar. LTFT+STFT is between -5% and -30%, very often in the -20% range, so expected regarding the increased flow of the new injectors. O2 graph seems OK

For now car indicates 4,0L/100km when before it was 5,8L/100... So I'll wait that ECU adapts, and will check on a full tank to have exact mileage.

[Adrien]

Hi,

Quick update, car is running perfectly fine both on gasoline and on E85 ! On E85, LTFT = 0%, STFT between +5% and -5%. Injector upgraded flow seems perfectly compensated by E85 increased consumption.

 

 

 

 

[nginx]

On 3/15/2021 at 5:51 PM, Adrien said:

parts are the same for south america market where I they can run up to E100.

Are you sure that injectors is the only modification that's done on the E12s sold on the south american market? If so which injectors do they use there? Bigger ones, just like you did or a special reference?

Anyway, very interesting report, thanks!

[Adrien]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:31 PM, nginx said:

Are you sure that injectors is the only modification that's done on the E12s sold on the south american market? If so which injectors do they use there? Bigger ones, just like you did or a special reference?

After a lot of reading, I understood it was the 23209-22080 for 1ZZ-FBE engines. I know they have both 1,6l 3zz and 1,8l 1zz, but only the 1zz has the "FBE" version designed for E100

I used this website to check the parts number, and for the 23209-22080 injectors, it displays only Southamerican Corollas from 2007 and 2008. Mine is a older model from 2003, so I decided to stick with the 23205-22040 injectors from the standard 1zz-fe.

I really believe that the 22080 do work, and I read that as they are more recent versions, they perform better (ie they don't clog). However, people did this mod before me and the 22040 are known to plug and work without problems.

[nginx]

Interesting, thanks!

Thinking about it, if you are only using E85, maybe you would see no difference if you used the the original air intake again: as the Air-fuel ratio is different than when using gasoline, there should be more than enough air with the original one.

Quote

So I decided to try it and swapped the injectors, startup was OK ,idle OK, driving OK. Car is objectively smoother at low revs : I was able to drive in 4th or 5th uphill on light throttle, where I usually couldn't go faster in 3rd or 4th with more throttle. Maybe the fact that injectors are new, or 4-point vs 12-point ?

This is very strange, from what I read (testing in a lab setting + bench) 4 points vs 12 points makes no objective difference. Shorter injection time maybe?

[Adrien]

On 10/1/2021 at 3:27 PM, nginx said:

Thinking about it, if you are only using E85, maybe you would see no difference if you used the the original air intake again: as the Air-fuel ratio is different than when using gasoline, there should be more than enough air with the original one.

You are right, It could be possible, however if you wanted to use standard gasoline again, you would feel the difference again. Fuel trims are OK up to redline, so With E85 it's not running rich, and with E10 it's not running lean. Perfect flex-fuel vehicle :P

On 10/1/2021 at 3:27 PM, nginx said:

This is very strange, from what I read (testing in a lab setting + bench) 4 points vs 12 points makes no objective difference. Shorter injection time maybe?

I totally agree with you. I searched for a long time about this exact topic, and we probably found the same litterature as I came to believe that 4-point and 12-point were the same. However in real life the difference is unrefutable, as my benchmark is a road that I take every week, so I know it very well. It's a twisty road, and there are only 2 places where I had to downshift to 3rd. now, I never downshift to 3rd, only to 4th so no placebo effect here.

In my case, and with my setup, the difference (4-point in 3rd gear vs 12-point in 4th gear) is real wether I am going full throttle, part throttle, or feathering the throttle.

 

 

[Diamonddedo]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:57 PM, Adrien said:

After a lot of reading, I understood it was the 23209-22080 for 1ZZ-FBE engines. I know they have both 1,6l 3zz and 1,8l 1zz, but only the 1zz has the "FBE" version designed for E100

I used this website to check the parts number, and for the 23209-22080 injectors, it displays only Southamerican Corollas from 2007 and 2008. Mine is a older model from 2003, so I decided to stick with the 23205-22040 injectors from the standard 1zz-fe.

I really believe that the 22080 do work, and I read that as they are more recent versions, they perform better (ie they don't clog). However, people did this mod before me and the 22040 are known to plug and work without problems.

Hey mate ! I own a 2007 3ZZ Corolla, so phase 2, and it seems that I have the Bosch injectors, don't know about the ECU, do you have any pictures of the old injectors ? because it shouldn't be possible to mount the 1ZZ Denso injectors on a Bosch fuel rail without modifications. 

I want to do the modification also, i'm not sure if I have Bosch injectors but I believe so, I will check it this week-end.

If I have some Bosch injectors I will need to find the Bosch equivalent of the 1ZZ injectors, except if yours where also Bosch which could mean we can install Denso on Bosch rail but seems weird.

And if I have Denso injectors hooray, just install 1ZZ injectors.

Btw i'm also French ha ha

Thanks mate !