CVT Type

[GBgraham]

Firstly with being a newbie I wish say hello to everyone and hoping someone technical on the forum that can supply me with the information I am looking for. I have just bought a new 2021 C-HR Hybrid and awaiting delivery and my question is . . . 

On my investigations to pre ordering the car I came across several types of Toyota CVT Hybrid transaxle/gearboxes on YouTube but I found nothing specific from this channel or any of the reviews on the C-HR except it is a CVT unit.

I was wondering what is the connection between the CVT and the engine. Is it clutch plate(s) like a DCT or torque converter like a fully automatic box?

Thanks in anticipation. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

See extract from Autocar: 

"Although Toyota offers a CVT in the new Corolla (but not in the UK), its hybrid drive e-CVT is nothing like the original Variomatic and there’s no belt. Instead, it consists of two electric motor-generators (MG1 and MG2) connected to a planetary gearbox. The whole caboodle has the engine at one end and the driven wheels at the other. 

Planetary gear sets exist aplenty inside conventional automatics. The compact package consists of a sun, planets and an enclosing ring gear and resemble a desk toy of the solar system. There are only a few components, but making the drive take different routes through the mini solar system allows the two motor-generators to perform different roles. 

MG1 can start the engine and at other times act as a generator to charge the hybrid Battery. MG2 can act as a drive motor on its own or with the engine and also a generator to perform a regenerative braking role. MG1 can also apply small amounts of torque to the gear set to control the balance between the engine and electric drive from MG2, and there are many more combinations. The system allows electric-only drive by decoupling the engine (without the need for a clutch), and it’s small and compact." 

[GBgraham]

Great and cheers for your time #FROSTYBALLS. Also for the clarity of the detailed explanation, I just wasn't sure which of the many generations of transaxle they were using, now I do.

[TonyHSD]

Hi and welcome.
As addition to the information above all Toyota hybrids does have a clutch plate similar to standard manual transmission friction disc which permanently fixed to the flywheel and been used as clutch dampener (torque limiter) to eliminate any possible damage cause by excessive torque created by engine or electric motor. It does make startling and shutting off internal combustion engine smoother. It’s usually non consumable part and does not require replacement unless broken.  Your car will have exactly the same drive train as Prius 2016->if it’s 1.8 or as Corolla 2.0 hybrid. 
You have made the best choice purchasing a hybrid Toyota.
Enjoy your new car. 👍

[GBgraham]

Thanks #TonyHSD for the welcome and the extra information. The main reason for asking the questions is that I have a shortish drive that's really steep with a quite awkward get out and I didn't want to be stressing anything, especially when moving off from cold. The last car had a DCT and I always wondered how much slipping of the clutch it did in such manoeuvres. At least there is no belt problems here, if it would ever had been?

[TonyHSD]

21 minutes ago, GBgraham said:

Thanks #TonyHSD for the welcome and the extra information. The main reason for asking the questions is that I have a shortish drive that's really steep with a quite awkward get out and I didn't want to be stressing anything, especially when moving off from cold. The last car had a DCT and I always wondered how much slipping of the clutch it did in such manoeuvres. At least there is no belt problems here, if it would ever had been?

You are welcome.
there is nothing that is slipping, all simply rotates through the gears. Here is your transmission from inside. If you haven’t seen this guy before, I highly recommend to you to check all his Toyota hybrids videos, they are super educational. 😊👍

 

[GBgraham]

Very informative, thanks again👌

[Gerg]

22 hours ago, GBgraham said:

The main reason for asking the questions is that I have a shortish drive that's really steep with a quite awkward get out and I didn't want to be stressing anything, especially when moving off from cold.

It seems like you've got all the answers you might need above, but, just to chuck in my two penn'orth...

That's an interesting point about your situation.  I don't know in practical terms what a steep gradient would present to the hybrid system, in terms how it would balance the necessary torque available from the electric motor, against taking the petrol engine out of its 'catalyst quick-warm-up-phase' - which is given some priority in the car's grand scheme of things.

On a 'complete' cold start, the engine initially runs on EV mode (automatically) to enable the petrol engine to dedicate itself to warm up and consequently get the exhaust emissions in control. It does this by using a different ignition and injection map.  But beyond a certain preset point, not least for safety, an acceleration demand from the driver (when it is beyond the scope of the electric drive) will immediately cause the petrol engine to operate in 'normal' mode and add to the electric drive for the acceleration you demand.  This is talked about here, (this is written during a lockdown, so people are looking for articles to read to occupy their time, not so?)   :-)

https://priuschat.com/threads/gen3-warming-up-stages.76501/

Your car will follow this pattern almost exactly.

There will be no cold transmission related wear problems, the transmissions are extremely, almost amazingly, tough. But revving a very cold engine? It's always best to avoid it in any car if you can...

On a related note: all Toyota hybrids have no mechanical reverse gear (!), they all just reverse the vehicle via the electric motor.  So on a cold start/reverse-off-the-drive situation, the engine will run to help warm itself (and the cabin) up, and also to charge the Battery if the charge level drops too low, otherwise it's all done on electric power.

It's worth differentiating here, that the car can turn on EV mode when it does not allow the driver to manually select EV mode.  So the engine operation in the above phases is not always obvious at all, except drivers sometimes say "my car is more zippy just after a cold start!", which is actually because it's running on electric, and is trying to not involve the petrol engine in moving the car at this stage, and has moved the parameters at which point the petrol engine normally cuts in. 

You don't need to know any of this of course, it will drive just the same whether you do or do not!

I suppose the key question here is: did you enjoy taking things to pieces as a child?  If yes, then there might be more to enjoy with this car.  (Finding out how it works - not taking it apart).

HTH.

[GBgraham]

Very informative, thanks again👌

23 hours ago, Gerg said:

It seems like you've got all the answers you might need above, but, just to chuck in my two penn'orth...

That's an interesting point about your situation.  I don't know in practical terms what a steep gradient would present to the hybrid system, in terms how it would balance the necessary torque available from the electric motor, against taking the petrol engine out of its 'catalyst quick-warm-up-phase' - which is given some priority in the car's grand scheme of things.

On a 'complete' cold start, the engine initially runs on EV mode (automatically) to enable the petrol engine to dedicate itself to warm up and consequently get the exhaust emissions in control. It does this by using a different ignition and injection map.  But beyond a certain preset point, not least for safety, an acceleration demand from the driver (when it is beyond the scope of the electric drive) will immediately cause the petrol engine to operate in 'normal' mode and add to the electric drive for the acceleration you demand.  This is talked about here, (this is written during a lockdown, so people are looking for articles to read to occupy their time, not so?)  🙂

https://priuschat.com/threads/gen3-warming-up-stages.76501/

Your car will follow this pattern almost exactly.

There will be no cold transmission related wear problems, the transmissions are extremely, almost amazingly, tough. But revving a very cold engine? It's always best to avoid it in any car if you can...

On a related note: all Toyota hybrids have no mechanical reverse gear (!), they all just reverse the vehicle via the electric motor.  So on a cold start/reverse-off-the-drive situation, the engine will run to help warm itself (and the cabin) up, and also to charge the battery if the charge level drops too low, otherwise it's all done on electric power.

It's worth differentiating here, that the car can turn on EV mode when it does not allow the driver to manually select EV mode.  So the engine operation in the above phases is not always obvious at all, except drivers sometimes say "my car is more zippy just after a cold start!", which is actually because it's running on electric, and is trying to not involve the petrol engine in moving the car at this stage, and has moved the parameters at which point the petrol engine normally cuts in. 

You don't need to know any of this of course, it will drive just the same whether you do or do not!

I suppose the key question here is: did you enjoy taking things to pieces as a child?  If yes, then there might be more to enjoy with this car.  (Finding out how it works - not taking it apart).

HTH.

Thank you #Gerg to be be another forumunite to take the time to give me and the forum a comprehensive reply.

As for your last paragraph, the answer is yes, if I don't know how anything works I just need to find out. I have been part of the motor trade for 40+ years but have had absolutely no experience of the CVT, the nearest being the Daf33/44 which makes me shudder at the very thought. 

Thanks to all once again  

[Gerg]

You are most welcome!

1 hour ago, GBgraham said:

the Daf33/44 which makes me shudder at the very thought.

I remember the DAF Variomatics well, with even a certain fondness, but then I never owned one...  (Small two stroke engines and then later, Renault ones, if I remember correctly?)  One of my school teachers had one.

Back when the first Nissan Micra CVTs were launched (1992), I managed to collect a handwritten translation (into English from Japanese) of how that transmission worked, from one of the staff at Nissan Technical Centre at Cranfield, Beds, simply by ringing up, chatting, and asking.  Try doing that now! I suppose that role is partly filled by these forums.... 

Not a DAF 33 or 44, but still a nostalgia trip for anyone who's still reading this far down;  a DAF 66 advert from 1974!

[nielshm]

1 hour ago, Gerg said:

You are most welcome!

I remember the DAF Variomatics well, with even a certain fondness, but then I never owned one...  (Small two stroke engines and then later, Renault ones, if I remember correctly?)  One of my school teachers had one.

Back when the first Nissan Micra CVTs were launched (1992), I managed to collect a handwritten translation (into English from Japanese) of how that transmission worked, from one of the staff at Nissan Technical Centre at Cranfield, Beds, simply by ringing up, chatting, and asking.  Try doing that now! I suppose that role is partly filled by these forums.... 

Not a DAF 33 or 44, but still a nostalgia trip for anyone who's still reading this far down;  a DAF 66 advert from 1974!

If I remember correctly, the DAF had same top speed going either way. 

Kind of cool going 70 mph in reverse... 

[robo1]

Graham’s Prius website is very informative about the CVT set up. http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/PriusFrames.htm
if you click on the link Understanding your Prius it takes you to links on all the components of the Hybrid. 
 

[GBgraham]

Thanks for the link #robo1 and all other info that's been passed on, all very interesting. But,  I'm not sure whether the car has 3rd or 4th generation CVT. I suppose the only way to find out is by contacting Toyota Customer Service with my VIN number unless anyone knows otherwise?

[TonyHSD]

13 minutes ago, GBgraham said:

Thanks for the link #robo1 and all other info that's been passed on, all very interesting. But,  I'm not sure whether the car has 3rd or 4th generation CVT. I suppose the only way to find out is by contacting Toyota Customer Service with my VIN number unless anyone knows otherwise?

Hi,

all chr models are based on the new TNGA chassis and share the same drive trains as Prius gen 4 from 2016 -> and the new 4th generation hybrid drivetrain. The transmission is called eCVT P610

[GBgraham]

4 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi,

all chr models are based on the new TNGA chassis and share the same drive trains as Prius gen 4 from 2016 -> and the new 4th generation hybrid drivetrain. The transmission is called eCVT P610

Brilliant thanks. It was just that I had this pointed out from a Parkers review on the pre-facelift model

What’s under the bonnet?

Toyota’s been selling mainstream production hybrid cars since 1995 – longer than any other car company – and our C-HR features the third generation of what’s called Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD)

[TonyHSD]

3 hours ago, GBgraham said:

Brilliant thanks. It was just that I had this pointed out from a Parkers review on the pre-facelift model

What’s under the bonnet?

Toyota’s been selling mainstream production hybrid cars since 1995 – longer than any other car company – and our C-HR features the third generation of what’s called Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD)

Well, many auto journalists knows nothing about cars, they just talk or type to earn their living, therefore often they talk nonsense and their reviews and car descriptions should only be taken as theirs personal thoughts. The chr has Prius 2016 drive train, 1.8 122bhp also called “self charging hybrid”.  
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/c-hr/performance Here just for pictures of the engine. 

[GBgraham]

20 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Well, many auto journalists knows nothing about cars, they just talk or type to earn their living, therefore often they talk nonsense and their reviews and car descriptions should only be taken as theirs personal thoughts. The chr has Prius 2016 drive train, 1.8 122bhp also called “self charging hybrid”.  
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/c-hr/performance Here just for pictures of the engine. 

I can't agree with you more as most reviews are made by none mechanically minded journalists that are spewing out personal fetishes, non sensical views or who is flavour of the month, dare I say, it's down who gives the largest gratuities. 

Of course you are correct on the drivetrain being the P610 which is actually on the printed vin and data label on the B post. Wearing glasses does help!

Thanks again

[AndyRC]

Having watched a few videos on the Toyota Hybrid system and CVT transmission the technology is amazing, far more complex than I thought of and Toyota are happy to warranty for 10 years now. I’m used to driving DCT transmission so looking forward to a test drive next week in a 2.0l C-HR. 

[TonyHSD]

4 hours ago, AndyRC said:

Having watched a few videos on the Toyota Hybrid system and CVT transmission the technology is amazing, far more complex than I thought of and Toyota are happy to warranty for 10 years now. I’m used to driving DCT transmission so looking forward to a test drive next week in a 2.0l C-HR. 

Actually it’s very simple transmission and best in the business to date. Eliminating all possible points of failure is what made it the most reliable and the best. Driving experience is also unrivalled, only full electric car can gives you the same experience. Toyota were running an add few years back how buying and driving a hybrid made people to return to their cars since Toyota hybrids  are so easy and pleasant to drive. , and they are right. The reason why Prius is number one choice in taxis around the globe, drivability, reliability and efficiency. No other car manufacturer come close to the first two! 👍