Hybrid Drivers - advice required please

[Mikw]

A question for Toyota Hybrid drivers :


I have a 2020 Toyota Yaris Hybrid (new shape). After a day out at Alton Towers this week i went to set back home. I put the Aircon on 16 degrees to cool the cabin, put the transmission into "D" and drove off on electric power only. As visitors to Alton Towers will know it's about a one mile drive out of the car park to reach the main road, i got all that way on electric power.  Then turned left to drive down the hill towards Alton Village.

I got all the way down this hill without the engine coming on, the MPG was reading 199 mpg and the engine temperature was on minumum. However, at the bottom of the hill there's a very tight left bend which you can only take at 5-10 mph, immediately followed by a very steep hill into Alton village.  This is when the engine turned on, about 2.5 miles into the journey, for the first time during the trip.

The very steep hill, which you can't get a run up on, meant i had to rev to the top of the energy counter at maxiumum revs on a stone cold engine in order to maintain forward progress.

My question is this : Knowing how ill advised it is to rev a stone cold engine hard immediately after it's turned on, how much damage would likely be caused by tackling a 1 in 4 hlll with no engine warm up at all?

[TonyHSD]

Hi, no damage can occur if you push it a bit harder although not recommended in general. Your engine has an ultra low viscosity oil and will flow at cold temps plus the car is a precise engineering, not an older engine. Best to avoid using ev mode only and drain the Battery completely since Battery power is needed all the time to spin the e motor although display may show only ice propels the car. I usually always take it easy when engine is cold and climbing hills at lower speeds and try to avoid overload the ice and rise the rpm to high, plus in winter when I start the car I always wait 1-2 minutes before drive away, since where I live there hills and anywhere I go I have to climb up. 👍

[Roy124]

Quote

After a day out at Alton Towers this week i went to set back home. I put the Aircon on 16 degrees to cool the cabin, put the transmission into "D" and drove off on electric power only. As visitors to Alton Towers will know it's about a one mile drive out of the car park to reach the main road, i got all that way on electric power.

There's a clue here.  If you needed to put the aircon on to cool the cabin that suggests the car was not cold.

If you do a proper cold start the engine should run automatically.  Leaving my garage (7 degrees) of a morning it eases out on Battery before the engine kicks in moments later.  Your only problem might have meant you didn't have an Battery power to augment the engine for the hill climb.

[Bernard Foy]

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

There's a clue here.  If you needed to put the aircon on to cool the cabin that suggests the car was not cold.

If you do a proper cold start the engine should run automatically.  Leaving my garage (7 degrees) of a morning it eases out on battery before the engine kicks in moments later.  Your only problem might have meant you didn't have an battery power to augment the engine for the hill climb.

Yes Roy you’ve nailed it spot on. That’s similar to how mine behaves. On a really cold morning 3 or 4Cel, on reversing out of the driveway the car moves about 10yds and the ice cuts in. So the temperatures in Michael’s must have been reasonably high and the car sitting in the sun all day. The ice is a 3 cylinder and warms up quicker than a 4pot. Pushing it to the top of the energy rating for a short time will not cause undue harm in the circumstances described, and as Tony said the levels of engineering and lubrications will cope. However if pushed to the limits for a regular and sustained period will undoubtedly cause unwanted wear & tear on any engine.

[Mikw]

Yes, on a cold morning the engine will start automatically after a few seconds, but if the car has been used during the day it can take a mile or so to start the ice.

Such was the case on my trip to Alton Towers, but seeing as a long downhill section was part of the first part of my journey home, the ice didn't kick in for 5 minutes or so. I was willing it to as i knew the very steep uphill section was coming up, but it didn't until i'd started climbing the hill and had to put my foot full down to keep forward momentum.

I tend to go Alton Towers a number of times a year so i guess i'd better get used to that happening and hope it's not causing any undue wear and tear.

[Bernard Foy]

11 minutes ago, Mikw said:

Yes, on a cold morning the engine will start automatically after a few seconds, but if the car has been used during the day it can take a mile or so to start the ice.

Such was the case on my trip to Alton Towers, but seeing as a long downhill section was part of the first part of my journey home, the ice didn't kick in for 5 minutes or so. I was willing it to as i knew the very steep uphill section was coming up, but it didn't until i'd started climbing the hill and had to put my foot full down to keep forward momentum.

I tend to go Alton Towers a number of times a year so i guess i'd better get used to that happening and hope it's not causing any undue wear and tear.

Michael you have no need to worry, only as earlier posted, it would need to be thrashed to the extreme for long sustained periods to do harm. BTW if it allays your misgivings just don’t push it to the end of the power spectrum and you will still have enough power and speed to climb that particular hill.

[Mikw]

1 minute ago, Bernard Foy said:

Michael you have no need to worry, only as earlier posted, it would need to be thrashed to the extreme for long sustained periods to do harm. BTW if it allays your misgivings just don’t push it to the end of the power spectrum and you will still have enough power and speed to climb that particular hill.

Ok, thanks, i feel a bit better now.  For the record it was only at maximum revs on the energy bar for about 5-10 seconds. I'll try it again next time on lower revs - as long as there's nobody too close behind, it's a very steep hill.

[AndrueC]

6 hours ago, Mikw said:

I put the Aircon on 16 degrees to cool the cabin

I realise it's not the question being asked but why would you do that? If your car has climate control then just set the temperature where you like it and leave it alone. That's the whole point of climate control (and indeed any heating/cooling system with a thermostat). You set the temperature where you want it and the system will do what is needed to reach and maintain that temperature.

The only valid reason to set your aircon to 16 degrees would be because you like sitting in a cabin at that temperature, which seems unlikely.

[bathtub tom]

Oh come on, I'm sure we all know people who think that if they wind up the thermostat to maximum it will somehow warm up quicker and vice versa.

I've a couple of relatives, one of which will walk in a room and thinking it feels warm, will wind fully down the the thermostically controlled radiator valves (TRV) and the other, thinking the room feels cold will wind it fully open.

I've a closer family relative, who asked me how much it would cost to fit TRVs in their house. When I replied, asking what was wrong with their TRVs, they replied they didn't know they were fitted!

[Roy124]

Regarding thermostats, I agree that winding up to higher than you want is nonsense.  However setting the temperature to very cool is different.  The difference is that your body temp from a hot day may be raised and you really want it to be cooled down rapidly.  Setting 21 will only allow for some cooling whereas you might want a cool breeze until you feel comfortable, then turn it up again.

The same is true is you return from a cold winter walk.  Your room might be at a comfortable 21 but you still want to stand by a roaring fire to remove the chill. 

[Mikw]

13 hours ago, AndrueC said:

I realise it's not the question being asked but why would you do that? If your car has climate control then just set the temperature where you like it and leave it alone. That's the whole point of climate control (and indeed any heating/cooling system with a thermostat). You set the temperature where you want it and the system will do what is needed to reach and maintain that temperature.

The only valid reason to set your aircon to 16 degrees would be because you like sitting in a cabin at that temperature, which seems unlikely.

Well,  I find that on a farily normal day (and with the car being warm having been in the sun) 16c is a nice cabin temperature.  17c seems to blow out tepid air, 15c is a bit too "sharp".

Initially at least.

[Gray86]

As I understand it, it’s LOAD rather than REVS that can harm a cold engine. I expect although the engine revs were high, your foot is a long way from the bottom of the accelerator pedal, and therefore you probably haven’t loaded the engine up much. The electric motor would take up much of the load anyway I suspect. 
 

as others have said above, it’s a precision-engineered piece of kit, and well lubricated. Unlikely any damage caused. Would be worse going flat out in a cold highly-strung turbocharged engine

[Catlover]

Now you know a potential “problem” exists means you can try to sort. To be able to drive “about 2.5miles” and seeing 199mpg on you dash was enjoyable, yes.  You may have even “encouraged” 199mpg by putting a light foot on the throttle.   The “real problem” was, you had too much power stored in the hybrid Battery. Travelling slow through a large car park/road, then a downhill section - all meant light load on the hybrid Battery, and if the hybrid Battery was already “high” when you got there then there lies the source of your troubles. 
Next time, if you arrive with lots of bars on the hybrid battery - try to offload them.  Turn on items to put a load on the 12v battery and watch the hybrid battery bars drop as it tries to charge the 12v battery up.  Things like, lights, high speed fan, radio etc. It’s like.... putting Toyota advice during “Covid/cold weather” to keep the 12v battery topped up into action with a different destination - you wanting to drain the hybrid battery rather then topping up the 12v.  As soon as the hybrid battery gets low (it won’t get too low) and the petrol engine kicks in then turn your car off and go enjoy the day. When you come back and ready to drive off, don’t worry, the 12v battery will kick everything into life, the hybrid battery (being low) will tell the computer I need some energy and thus the engine will be forced to fire up to help hybrid motors generate what the hybrid battery needs. So, when you next do that “2.5 mile” stretch again your engine may be running, but when you get to the up hill part, you will not only have a warm petrol engine, but bars on the hybrid battery to give a boost to get up that hill easier.

[TonyHSD]

AC in hot weather, over 25C° is the biggest drain for the hybrid Battery after the drive train, when I use it I can see how the bars  of the Battery disappear fast same as you driving in ev mode. Since the weather wasn’t too hot that day the op was able to drive that long in ev only and the car didn’t start the ice. About engine load, when Battery is down the engine load is quite high since the ice needs to propel the car and to charge the battery then e motors actually works against the ice and the car feels ultra sluggish. Btw battery when with good charge helps the ice in almost all speeds, in my other posts that I shared the issue with acceleration when I was pushing the car to accelerate fast on speeds well over 60mph I had noticed hybrid battery lost its charge  a lot after few times hard acceleration. 😉 

[Mikw]

5 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

AC in hot weather, over 25C° is the biggest drain for the hybrid battery after the drive train, when I use it I can see how the bars  of the battery disappear fast same as you driving in ev mode. Since the weather wasn’t too hot that day the op was able to drive that long in ev only and the car didn’t start the ice. About engine load, when battery is down the engine load is quite high since the ice needs to propel the car and to charge the battery then e motors actually works against the ice and the car feels ultra sluggish. Btw battery when with good charge helps the ice in almost all speeds, in my other posts that I shared the issue with acceleration when I was pushing the car to accelerate fast on speeds well over 60mph I had noticed hybrid battery lost its charge  a lot after few times hard acceleration. 😉 

Right, so as i understand it from what you're saying, because my hybrid Battery was highly charged there's a good chance that the engine wasn't undergoing much load as i ascended the hill?

I'm going to Alton Towers again soon, i'm a regular there, so this won't be a one off. So i want to make sure i'm not going to turn this engine into an oil guzzler really.

[Mikw]

12 hours ago, Catlover said:

Now you know a potential “problem” exists means you can try to sort. To be able to drive “about 2.5miles” and seeing 199mpg on you dash was enjoyable, yes.  You may have even “encouraged” 199mpg by putting a light foot on the throttle.   The “real problem” was, you had too much power stored in the hybrid battery. Travelling slow through a large car park/road, then a downhill section - all meant light load on the hybrid battery, and if the hybrid battery was already “high” when you got there then there lies the source of your troubles. 
Next time, if you arrive with lots of bars on the hybrid battery - try to offload them.  Turn on items to put a load on the 12v battery and watch the hybrid battery bars drop as it tries to charge the 12v battery up.  Things like, lights, high speed fan, radio etc. It’s like.... putting Toyota advice during “Covid/cold weather” to keep the 12v battery topped up into action with a different destination - you wanting to drain the hybrid battery rather then topping up the 12v.  As soon as the hybrid battery gets low (it won’t get too low) and the petrol engine kicks in then turn your car off and go enjoy the day. When you come back and ready to drive off, don’t worry, the 12v battery will kick everything into life, the hybrid battery (being low) will tell the computer I need some energy and thus the engine will be forced to fire up to help hybrid motors generate what the hybrid battery needs. So, when you next do that “2.5 mile” stretch again your engine may be running, but when you get to the up hill part, you will not only have a warm petrol engine, but bars on the hybrid battery to give a boost to get up that hill easier.

Thanks for your input. I'm a regular visitor there so the scenario will repeat itself regularly, so that's worth a try.

[TonyHSD]

8 hours ago, Mikw said:

Right, so as i understand it from what you're saying, because my hybrid battery was highly charged there's a good chance that the engine wasn't undergoing much load as i ascended the hill?

I'm going to Alton Towers again soon, i'm a regular there, so this won't be a one off. So i want to make sure i'm not going to turn this engine into an oil guzzler really.

That’s correct, when Battery is full and engine is cold the e motor takes the harder work and let the ice run at set rpm like generator to warm up itself and provide electricity to feed the Battery., while this happens you can sense the car behaviour is like a full ev with range extender. Push it harder and ice will take most of the load to drive the car uphill. It’s an everyday occurrence with me since I live at the bottom of a long hill. No worries for oil problems. 👍🏎

[Roy124]

"full ev with range extender. " 

Can you explain this please.?

[TonyHSD]

44 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

"full ev with range extender. " 

Can you explain this please.?

Hi, it’s an electric car with small engine that does not drive the car but work only as a generator to produce electricity and feeds the Battery. BMW i3, Vauxhall Ampera, London taxi, some us Tesla owners have Honda petrol generators in boot and when out of charge and there are out in the wild they use these to recharge their cars. 👍🏎

[Roy124]

Tony, now I follow, thank you.  It sounds a good way to remove range anxiety.  Do they have all the tax and charges benefits of a pure EV or are they counted at hybrids?

Jumping continents, it sounds what might work best in the USA with long distances between places thus limiting the attraction of pure EV for many states.

[TonyHSD]

3 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Tony, now I follow, thank you.  It sounds a good way to remove range anxiety.  Do they have all the tax and charges benefits of a pure EV or are they counted at hybrids?

Jumping continents, it sounds what might work best in the USA with long distances between places thus limiting the attraction of pure EV for many states.

Hi Roy, 

I am not sure about taxes and I believe these are classified as full ev. , I never even been in one of these only know about them from the media. I only had my ever first ev experience last week in Hyundai ionic and it’s pretty much same as Toyota hybrid but driving on electricity all the time, was seated inside for a while and been waiting for the ice to kick in and recharge the Battery, nope there is no ice and only noise inside the cabin was from the heating fan 😉👍

[MikeSh]

On 5/1/2021 at 10:34 PM, Mikw said:

Thanks for your input. I'm a regular visitor there so the scenario will repeat itself regularly, so that's worth a try.

I think I'd be inclined to use the heating to force start the engine. If the car interior is really hot then use the aircon for a couple of minutes (or just open all the windows) while setting off across the cp. Then turn the temp setting up to max which should call for heat, which should then start the engine. You won't get heat of course.

Let it run for 30-60 seconds then turn the temp back to desired. The engine will likely stop again, but at least it's now got oil everywhere, and incidentally will have pushed some round the transaxle whose oil pump is also engine driven. It's then all as set for that climb as it can be really.

[Mikw]

10 hours ago, MikeSh said:

I think I'd be inclined to use the heating to force start the engine. If the car interior is really hot then use the aircon for a couple of minutes (or just open all the windows) while setting off across the cp. Then turn the temp setting up to max which should call for heat, which should then start the engine. You won't get heat of course.

Let it run for 30-60 seconds then turn the temp back to desired. The engine will likely stop again, but at least it's now got oil everywhere, and incidentally will have pushed some round the transaxle whose oil pump is also engine driven. It's then all as set for that climb as it can be really.

Thanks! Funnily enough i actually did this today before i read your message, and it works!

Did the same trip and put the heating on "Hi" in the car park and the engine fired up, by the time i'd left the car park it was almost at proper operating temperature, so turned it down again and the engine stopped.

Great minds think alike!

[Bernard Foy]

1 hour ago, Mikw said:

Thanks! Funnily enough i actually did this today before i read your message, and it works!

Did the same trip and put the heating on "Hi" in the car park and the engine fired up, by the time i'd left the car park it was almost at proper operating temperature, so turned it down again and the engine stopped.

Great minds think alike!

And fools seldom differ 😂🤣 Sorry I couldn’t resist 😡my bad😡

[loz8]

do other readers think there is only one person in this car? I wouldn't light foot it up a hill with 5 seated.