Aygo too slow uphill climb

[Joseph Busuttil]

My toyota aygo (automatic, 2019 model) nearly comes to a stop on an uphill climb.  It takes too long to accelerate past 20 Kph. How to prevent this?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Why not downshift manually to a lower gear.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Why not downshift manually to a lower gear.

AFter getting my Aygo x-shift in October 2020 I quickly learnt that when tackling the hills in north Devon it was far better to go into manual mode so I could change down a gear early enough to keep momentum. Doing that I have no problem with the hills, even a 25% (1 in 4) one on my regular routes.

[WazWii]

6 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

AFter getting my Aygo x-shift in October 2020 I quickly learnt that when tackling the hills in north Devon it was far better to go into manual mode so I could change down a gear early enough to keep momentum. Doing that I have no problem with the hills, even a 25% (1 in 4) one on my regular routes.

Hi, you helped me on a previous thread and this is great advice too. I will do this from now on. I have a MMT gearbox in Aygo second-gen. Think they call this X-Shift. In E mode it will drop down gears as the hill gets steeper and revs decrease. The problem with this is it can slow you down and lead to excessive revs, let us say half-way up the hill. Manual override option in M mode I have yet to try so looking forward to this on my next drive out. Hopefully it will allow me to tackle the hills better.

I noticed in M mode Aygo wants more speed and revs to shift to third. In E mode third is allowed at lower speeds and revs. But major benefit of M mode is also when coming to a T-Junction as one can keep 2nd engaged. In E mode MMT gearbox wishes to select 1st all the time and this causes a clunking noise and a slight jerkiness in movement which is off-putting inside plus no doubt puts additional strain on the gearbox.

Learning all this after the issue I had with my car as indicated on another thread.

Thanks!

Edited April 30, 2021 by WazWii

[Guest]

17 hours ago, WazWii said:

I noticed in M mode Aygo wants more speed and revs to shift to third. In E mode third is allowed at lower speeds and revs.

The gap between second and third is noticeably larger than it was in my 2008 manual, I'm still having to learn what is the optimum revs to change from second to third is (I've only done around 1300 miles in my new Aygo). Maybe in E mode it still shifts at the revs that were right for the earlier gear ratios?

[WazWii]

On 5/1/2021 at 7:58 AM, PetrolDave said:

The gap between second and third is noticeably larger than it was in my 2008 manual, I'm still having to learn what is the optimum revs to change from second to third is (I've only done around 1300 miles in my new Aygo). Maybe in E mode it still shifts at the revs that were right for the earlier gear ratios?

Sorry for the late reply.

OK so I did try this out when I last went out. Firstly I can say in M mode steep hills can be indeed be tackled better. The simple reason is because the gear selection seems to hold. In M mode the gearbox does not downshift on a steep hill as the vehicles speed decrases and revs decrase. I have to try this out more but I am sure it works better. In which case my Aygo has been getting a bit of unnecessary abuse for the last three years as in E mode gearbox used to downshift, revs go crazy high and then one was forced to smell a burning smell in the cabin after tackling a steep hill. I talked about this in my other thread.

I was told this burning smell should not happen and it requires further investigation at my local TOYOTA dealership which I intend to do soon. It will be a bit of a nuisance when I will have to move the gear selector into M mode when approaching steep hills but it is far better than having to put up with, as stated before, the issues in E mode on steep hills.

Regarding 2nd to 3rd, yes far too high and this makes the engine sound like a tortured cat when crawling along at a snails pace. In which case I sometimes just go back to E mode and allow the vehicles electronics to do the early upshift. The optimum gear change over will be indicated on the instrument panel. I believe on the right hand side of the circular instrument display there are three further light displays and in the centre one I believe when the optimum time has come to upshift (or downshift also I believe) a green light flashes stating shift or something along those lines. Memory is not great nowadays. Try it.

Hope you see this message, sorry for the delay, and I hope you respond.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, WazWii said:

The optimum gear change over will be indicated on the instrument panel. I believe on the right hand side of the circular instrument display there are three further light displays and in the centre one I believe when the optimum time has come to upshift (or downshift also I believe) a green light flashes stating shift or something along those lines.

Yes the centre section shows suggested change up/down indicators, but I wouldn't call them 'optimum'. If I follow those, especially the change up indicator, when in M mode the acceleration drops to more like 'gathering speed' which causes the traffic behind to close up considerably, so I tend to completely ignore the indicators and change up at speeds that I've learnt will be suitable for the engine and the road. This is just like driving a manual car but with the convenience of changing gear using the steering wheel paddles, which frankly is what I want most of the time from MMT.

I've tried to work out the logic of the E mode but frankly I can't fathom it out, IMHO the logic needs considerable tweaking before it matches the torque/power characteristics of the engine. On slight slopes it changes up too soon but on steep hills it changes down too soon, only on flat roads does it seem to be about right - makes me think that the calibration was done on a flat test track?

[Wiz201]

I just put my foot down 😁 

[WazWii]

11 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Yes the centre section shows suggested change up/down indicators, but I wouldn't call them 'optimum'. If I follow those, especially the change up indicator, when in M mode the acceleration drops to more like 'gathering speed' which causes the traffic behind to close up considerably, so I tend to completely ignore the indicators and change up at speeds that I've learnt will be suitable for the engine and the road. This is just like driving a manual car but with the convenience of changing gear using the steering wheel paddles, which frankly is what I want most of the time from MMT.

I've tried to work out the logic of the E mode but frankly I can't fathom it out, IMHO the logic needs considerable tweaking before it matches the torque/power characteristics of the engine. On slight slopes it changes up too soon but on steep hills it changes down too soon, only on flat roads does it seem to be about right - makes me think that the calibration was done on a flat test track?

Regarding the first point, I need to try that again. I can understand this to be true. Usually when in E mode I myself change up with the paddle's on the steering wheel as I feel the engine is holding onto its existing gears too long and thus there is extra strain on the engine and also extra MPG usage. Not to mention the extra noise. Of course not done a lot of driving in M mode but will try this out more. I like a more 'laboured/leisurely' drive so some may find I upshift too soon. However due to the Aygo's light weight (about 900kg) you will find the torque quite ample driven in the correct manner.

One thing I do not like about M mode is downshifting (it does do it automatically in M mode). It seems to take a while longer than E mode. In E mode I found the downshfits more immediate and felt there were less 'dead-zones'.

Yes there are weaknesses in the gearbox. Heard a new clutch costs near the region of £900 also...

Still it is not as bad as feared because the reviews were panning it but I found it easy to get along with. I would not go back to a manual now. The feeling of control with both hands on the steering wheel with easy access to the paddle-shifters allows one much more time to enjoy driving, the view and more importantly, look out for other hazards and dangers on the road.

[S_J_P]

I have to say that I found the Aygo MMT a dangerous abomination!  I ended up returning “The Slug” as it became known before the lease ended.  It left me lurching across traffic when turning right, stranded beeping when undertaking three point turns, and undertook dangerously unpredictable up and downshifts.  Driving it permanently in Manual mode helped (mine didn’t have paddles), but the lethargic clutch actuation and frequent refusal to make changes which were anything but pedestrian in nature still left me a danger to other road users in anything but deserted roads.  As you might have guessed, I did not like the MMT at all!

[Derek cranage]

My wife had a aygo auto for 10 years with no problems and now has a 2017 auto never a problem and we live in a hilly area.

the M mode is manual and by leaving it in that mode, without manually changing gear, you are driving with the engine reaching its top and bottom Rev limit all the time before it changes gear, which is not good for the engine. Leave it in E mode and when you want it to change just lift your accelerator or use the flappy paddle. It is very easy to influence the change with the accelerator 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Derek cranage said:

Leave it in E mode and when you want it to change just lift your accelerator or use the flappy paddle. It is very easy to influence the change with the accelerator 

I've tried that but find it is very slow to change when I lift the accelerator when I want it to change up and far too keen to change down unnecessarily when climbing hills, for me the best solution is M mode and use the flappy paddles to change at the same revs as I would if it was a manual. The only time I use E mode is on motorways and dual carriageways as the hills on those tend to be less steep.

I totally agree that leaving it in M mode and not changing gear yourself is not a good idea.

[WazWii]

I have now got more experience of M mode and can report back.

On hills it comes in very very useful. In fact one hill near me in E mode the Aygo does not want to change above third and then even tries to shift into second! With M mode I can hold third and then it even lets me select fourth! What a difference. Complete opposite of E mode. How can such a thing happen? The difference is vast and there should be some software re-calibration done on the E mode. Unbelievable.

It makes such a difference. Before I was always worried about holding up others behind on hills and whether I was making them get flustered and thus attempt dangerous overake manouvres. Not so now. Now they cannot keep up sometimes and wow the Aygo in M mode can tackle hills with such a puny engine if driven right. Shocked at the difference and I now really enjoy the hills. Engine is getting a much easier time of it too which is critical.

However the downside is without a doubt downshifts. Many times I was caught in too high a gear when going up a slight incline. So where the Aygo was supposed to be in third in E mode I would find myself in fourth in M mode and would thus have to manually downshift myself. A bit of a nuisance I must say. Same with right and left turns off the main road coming from a medium to high speed. I would find once on the new road the Aygo was holding too high a gear. Again, a nuisance but not something which is a deal-breaker.

Regarding optimum time to change gears sometimes just basically listening to the engine makes a lot of sense. Forget everything else. Aygo engine gets loud when revved and you will no doubt here when the time has come to change gear whether in E Mode or M mode. Drive to the road conditions too though as mentioned by PetrolDave.

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, WazWii said:

However the downside is without a doubt downshifts. Many times I was caught in too high a gear when going up a slight incline. So where the Aygo was supposed to be in third in E mode I would find myself in fourth in M mode and would thus have to manually downshift myself. A bit of a nuisance I must say. Same with right and left turns off the main road coming from a medium to high speed. I would find once on the new road the Aygo was holding too high a gear. Again, a nuisance but not something which is a deal-breaker.

The downshift in M mode is definitely too late, but remember that M basically means MANUAL where you should keep control of the gears, but with some software protection to avoid under- or over-revving the engine.

What I do when slowing down or climbing hills is to listen to engine and/or watch the vehicle speed and when it 'sounds like' the engine is beginning to struggle or the vehicle speed is dropping then I shift down a gear - doing this I can get up hills on the A361 with the vehicle speed never dropping below 55mph (GPS speed), which I could never achieve in my 2008 C1 (but that I think is also helped by the better torque/power characteristics of the new DVVT-i engine compared to the older VVT-i engine).

To summarise, I regard and treat the MMT as a manual with paddle shifters, and then I actually find it better than the manual in my previous C1 as the shifts are faster - and the throttle blips on down changes are an aural delight too!

[S_J_P]

On 6/10/2021 at 8:44 PM, WazWii said:

I have now got more experience of M mode and can report back.

On hills it comes in very very useful. In fact one hill near me in E mode the Aygo does not want to change above third and then even tries to shift into second! With M mode I can hold third and then it even lets me select fourth! What a difference. Complete opposite of E mode. How can such a thing happen? The difference is vast and there should be some software re-calibration done on the E mode. Unbelievable.

It makes such a difference. Before I was always worried about holding up others behind on hills and whether I was making them get flustered and thus attempt dangerous overake manouvres. Not so now. Now they cannot keep up sometimes and wow the Aygo in M mode can tackle hills with such a puny engine if driven right. Shocked at the difference and I now really enjoy the hills. Engine is getting a much easier time of it too which is critical.

 

 

Ok, now I’m confused!

The Aygo has a small and relatively low powered engine (which is at least partially offset by its low weight) but on steeper hills the automatic version will tend to suffer as the engine falls outside of the optimal torque/power window and the hesitant, peculiarly timed, and abrupt auto-shifts don’t help at all.  You have just stated that in manual you change UP, to third or fourth, this will have the effect of dropping the revs and thus dropping the overall torque/power available which will make the car slow down, not travel faster.  When I had my semi-auto Aygo I used to switch to manual mode and change DOWN on hills to give me more power and thus more speed.  Am I missing something or have I misunderstood something here, as I fail to see how changing up on a hill will make anything faster, in auto the ECU would have changed up as the revs rose anyhow, and you can reach almost 60 in second before reaching the redline.

[Catlover]

The wife used to have a C1, same car as the Aygo and Peugeot 107. A real fun car to drive. It’s a 3 cylinder engine and needs higher revs then most cars to make good progress, so you need to change up later and change down earlier then perhaps you used to.
Big old engines, and particularly diesel engined cars have low down torque so you can move ok in a higher gear then in a petrol car, and the Aygo needs more revs then other petrol cars. So don’t be afraid of holding a lower gear going up hills or turning 90 degree into a side road. If when you change up a gear it feels like the engine is dying then you in too high a gear and need to change up. Similarly, if turning 90 degree into a side road the engine is flat and won’t pull you are in too high a gear and need to change down. 

[WazWii]

On 6/12/2021 at 6:43 AM, S_J_P said:

Ok, now I’m confused!

The Aygo has a small and relatively low powered engine (which is at least partially offset by its low weight) but on steeper hills the automatic version will tend to suffer as the engine falls outside of the optimal torque/power window and the hesitant, peculiarly timed, and abrupt auto-shifts don’t help at all.  You have just stated that in manual you change UP, to third or fourth, this will have the effect of dropping the revs and thus dropping the overall torque/power available which will make the car slow down, not travel faster.  When I had my semi-auto Aygo I used to switch to manual mode and change DOWN on hills to give me more power and thus more speed.  Am I missing something or have I misunderstood something here, as I fail to see how changing up on a hill will make anything faster, in auto the ECU would have changed up as the revs rose anyhow, and you can reach almost 60 in second before reaching the redline.

To be clear what I meant was on a hill the manual mode allows one to select 3rd/4th. In automatic mode you do not get that choice. The car automatically tries to downshift to 2nd which makes the revs go crazy high. This puts stress on the engine, increases fuel consumption and creates noise pollution. In auto mode the ECU takes a very long time to shift upwards - it is not optimum. You don't want to over-rev an engine. It will take its toll in the long-term.

When you get the chance to select 3rd/4th in manual mode on a hill you should be doing sufficient speed to maintain momentum. This is how to drive around the cars limits. Different roads will have different best ways to tackle them - you have to adapt your driving style around this. The hill I tackled in the example I gave was extremely long with a 60 mph speed limit! Building up speed to tackle it is the best way unless you want to be in 2nd for one minute over-revving the engine! Not good!