Toyota Relax Warranty

[Hornet3D]

Many years ago I owned a mk1 Toyota MR2 and was active in the owners club for some years and I can think of many times when Toyota applied goodwill to claims.  Like the owner took his MR2 in to be checked because of a clicking noise from the engine, turned out to be a a cracked piston ring.  An expensive job as it was out of warranty.  The dealership only charged him for parts and nothing for labour on the basis that, although it was out of warranty, they felt such a failure was too early in it's life considering the miles done on the engine.

Another time we were travelling in a convoy of some thirty MR2s and one driver pulled over as there was a strong smell of burning brakes.  This was due to a caliper seized on, luckily one of the party knew there was a Toyota dealership nearby.  They were happy to replace the caliper under warranty but they had none in stock when we explained the situation they took a caliper off of one the the dealerships cars to get him running and sorted it later.

[Cyker]

I wish more dealers were like that!

[Hornet3D]

59 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I wish more dealers were like that!

It was quite a number of years ago now, perhaps the world has moved on.  I do remember that many Mk1 Mr2 failed their MOTs at non Toyota garages because the handbrake had more than three clicks of movement and was said to be out of adjustment.  I can't remember the exact number but I think the MR2 was designed to have seven clicks when adjusted correctly.

That leads me on to another point, with so much high tech electronics being added to cars I doubt that many workshops outside of the main dealers have the expertise of the main dealer staff.  The mechanics at the main dealers only have to maintain their knowledge of a small range of vehicles where as the local garage technician is trying to be proficient of a range of manufacturers, I doubt that is possible theses days.

[Cyker]

5 hours ago, Hornet3D said:

That leads me on to another point, with so much high tech electronics being added to cars I doubt that many workshops outside of the main dealers have the expertise of the main dealer staff.  The mechanics at the main dealers only have to maintain their knowledge of a small range of vehicles where as the local garage technician is trying to be proficient of a range of manufacturers, I doubt that is possible theses days.

That would make sense, but in my experience my local dealers knowledge of their own cars is terrible - There are lots of common problems we know about on this forum through word of mouth that they seem to have no knowledge of whenever I ask about, to the point where I'm having to feed them TSB numbers.

In fact they seem to rely on TSBs very heavily - Almost every time I've given them something that isn't routine servicing they always cock it up somehow despite the high prices they charge, except when it has a TSB. (Examples - brake change (asked explicitly for toyota oe parts, was charged for oe parts and given optifit), uneven idle on D4D (Insisted EGR need replacing, turned out to be a soot blockage in the turbo throttlebody), gearbox reluctant to go into gear (Said needed new oil, actually made it worse and gearbox failed), AC failing to hold gas (diagnosed radiator leak, failed again, then pipe leak, failed again, then compressor)

I feel they often lack the experience of general mechanics and it has dulled their common sense and especially their diagnostic abilities - My local dealer has repeatedly failed to diagnose the true source of problems, seemingly only looking as far as the first thing then declaring that is the problem, only to be surprised when the problem reoccurs after a hefty outlay, and not even a hint of an apology, just excuses, when they look again and find the next 'real source' of the problem.

 

From what I've read here from others this does seem to mainly be an issue in the South East for some reason - I've read some glowing compliments for other dealers, esp. up north.

It seems the further you get from the toxic cesspool that is London, the better the service gets!

 

[Yugguy1970]

I agree.  Increasingly main dealers can't really cope with troubleshooting of things that are outside routine maintenance and booked hours jobs.

[Big_D]

Years ago a car would be diagnosed by sound, smell, noise, experience, etc. Those were days where you could take a car in to a local or a dealer, and the they would be proper techs. Nowdays it all computer related. Plug in a computer and the cars says this is wrong.

 

I'm still old school in the sense that I tune an older car or bike using without any tools apart from the basics. Listen to the sound of the engine, smell the fumes from the exhaust and you get a "feel" for what's wrong.

 

I've given up trying to do my own maintenance like I used to

A. I don't have a PC with all the diagnostic equipment, and

B. I couldn't be bothered working on a newer car.

 

I still rebuild motorbikes and have worked on many older model cars in my life.

 

Well, that's my 2p's worth

[JF8]

I have a RAV4 and the tread on two of the tyres is getting close to the legal minimum. 

There are no Toyota approved garages near where I live, if I get the tyres replaced by a local non-Toyota approved garage does anyone know if it might void my Toyota Relax warranty?

If tried searching online to find this info buy can't find anything about it. Hard find who from Toyota I could contact to ask this question.

[Cyker]

Tyres aren't covered by the relax warranty anyway so getting them changed elsewhere won't void it.

 

[fordulike]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:09 PM, Paul harris said:

Relax is a con. First problem I had with my 2017 Prius,  battery draining and unable to put it in gear.  They said it was water ingress into a sealed communication unit and Not covered by relax.  The dealer couldn’t believe it.  £1400, to fix.  No relaxation for me.

I've recently had a problem with the electrics on my Aygo. Took it in to the dealer, only for the reason that I am covered by the relax warranty. Dealer made it clear that I would be covered for any electrical component failure, but if it was a fault due to corrosion, then I wouldn't be.

Considering Aygos are like leaky bins, I was expecting them to fault find and turn round and say, sorry no cover, corrosion has caused the issue.

To my surprise, it turned out to be a faulty speedometer unit, which is covered!

Bad news is, the parts are backlogged till the end of July, plus, they reckon that I won't be able to claim back the £340 diagnosis fee I had to pay upfront.

Is this right? Can I really not claim back that money, even though it's technically a manufacturing fault/failure and not user error?

[FROSTYBALLS]

From your post, they haven't said the fee is definitely not covered.

Looking at the terms & conditions, diagnostic fees aren't listed as an exclusion - so presumably may be refundable. I'd be inclined to query with Toyota Customer Services.

[Cyker]

Yeah that's a bit weird - Even my terrible local dealer will waive the diagnostic fee if you then pay them to repair whatever fault they diagnosed...

(I think it's to encourage you to have them repair it, rather than take that information to another garage)

[fordulike]

On 7/7/2022 at 9:18 PM, FROSTYBALLS said:

From your post, they haven't said the fee is definitely not covered.

Looking at the terms & conditions, diagnostic fees aren't listed as an exclusion - so presumably may be refundable. I'd be inclined to query with Toyota Customer Services.

Thanks for your reply. I did fire an email off to head office, the same day. The car requires the speedo assembly to be replaced, but there's a backorder of the part, so repair under warranty not until end of July.

I didn't name the dealership, nor give Toyota any more details, apart from asking if this is indeed the policy about paying diagnostic fees and not getting that back under a genuine warranty claim. I did that because I have had a good rapport with the dealership for the past 6 years, and didn't want Toyota (at this stage) going in spanking bottoms.

Hopefully, I'll get a definitive answer from them soon and I'll post here for other member's information 🙂

[fordulike]

Wow, got a reply from Toyota, literally half hour after posting. Here's Toyota's reply:

'Thank you for your email regarding your Relax warranty query. It is important to be aware that when the Centre charges you for the initial investigation, if the issue is deemed to be a manufacturing defect the diagnosis and repair would be covered under the Relax warranty. 

Unfortunately, if anything is diagnosed as human error/abuse then the Relax warranty will not cover the diagnosis and repair.

I hope this clarifies your query'

So, that clears it then, I'm entitled to my diagnostic fee back.

[Cyker]

That's how I thought it should be!

To be fair this isn't the first time we've had a report of a dealer not knowing the terms of the Relax warranty  

 

[MCatPG]

I've been looking at the Toyota warranty Ts&Cs.  

What we get are three warranties and one "extended cover", set out in four documents: 

1. A document which includes a reference to the "Manufacturer Warranty" (clause 3e) and the "Toyota Warranty" (clause 4). I think these are meant to be the same thing. Clause 4 is the statement of the Manufacturer's Warranty in terms which seem typical of the motor industry and clause 3e says this is for 3 years/60,000 miles. The rest of the document deals with the "Relax" Additional Warranty which provides a series of individual warranties which are brought into effect individually when the servicing conditions are complied with, up to a limit of 10 years/100,000 miles, whichever comes first. As mentioned at the beginning of the thread this document is online here. 
2. A Hybrid Battery Extended Cover document for 15 years, which is online here . I suspect this is an insurance cover, not a warranty as such. I think that Toyota hope that they won't be paying for failed batteries, an insurance company will be.
3. An anti-corrosion warranty for 12 years. I cannot find that online. Hopefully someone knows where it is. 
4. A paintwork and surface rust warranty for 3 years - that's another I can't find online. 

Rust and corrosion are specifically excluded from the Additional Warranty (clauses 13c & 14d), so document 3 is important and I would like to see it.

I can't see what value document 4 might add because it doesn't run beyond the 3 years of the Manufacturer's Warranty, but I would still like to see it to complete the picture. 

If a vehicle fails within the first 3years/60,000 miles the owner relies on the Manufacturer/Toyota Warranty in clause 4 of the first document, and after that it's the Additional Warranty which applies (clause 5). 

I have analysed the Additional Warranty and the Hybrid Battery Extended Cover documents. If anyone is interested I will post the results on here. I think the results of my analysis are quite interesting.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

34 minutes ago, MCatPG said:

An anti-corrosion warranty for 12 years. I cannot find that online. Hopefully someone knows where it is. 

Actually a corrosion perforation warranty which,  regardless of mileage, provides 12 years coverage against perforation of the bodywork (ie: any holes through the bodywork from inside to outside) due to corrosion that is attributable to faults in material or workmanship.

The terms and conditions of the Relax warranty are included within the first post of this topic.

[MCatPG]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Actually a corrosion perforation warranty which,  regardless of mileage, provides 12 years coverage against perforation of the bodywork (ie: any holes through the bodywork from inside to outside) due to corrosion that is attributable to faults in material or workmanship.

The terms and conditions of the Relax warranty are included within the first post of this topic.

Thanks for replying. Yes it's advertised as a 12 year anti-corrosion and perforation warranty as you say. But I can't find the Ts&Cs on Toyota's website so I have no idea what they say. Have you read it? It sounds as though you may have a copy. If so, may I see it or have a link to it please? The Relax warranty excludes any and all claims for rust and corrosion (clauses 13d and 14c) so I don't see how anyone can know what is covered (and what isn't) without seeing the actual corrosion perforation warranty. 

I agree the first post of this topic is a link to the Relax warranty, but it's not an analysis of the Ts&Cs, which is what I have done and offered to post here if anyone is interested.

As I explained above customers need to study at least three documents to understand what cover they have. 

[Gerg]

On 7/17/2022 at 9:31 PM, MCatPG said:

I agree the first post of this topic is a link to the Relax warranty, but it's not an analysis of the Ts&Cs, which is what I have done and offered to post here if anyone is interested.

I have only just seen this thread. 

I would be interested in seeing what you have discovered.

Thanks in advance!

[MCatPG]

15 hours ago, Gerg said:

I have only just seen this thread. 

I would be interested in seeing what you have discovered.

Thanks in advance!

I'll split it into sections.

The Additional Warranty (in document 1) 

As mentioned in earlier posts, the warranty is framed to cover only specified items, rather than all items subject to exclusions (clause 12a), so if something isn't mentioned it's not covered. The list of things which are covered requires no explanation from me. But despite that general principle there are some notable exclusions. It seems that the person who wrote this didn't trust their clause 12a and wanted a list of specific exclusions as well.

Clause 10 excludes repairs which are impossible, so if an Authorised Toyota Repairer decides that an engine suffers internal damage beyond repair I think one would have to rely on Toyota's CRM policy to persuade them to cough up for a new one, and their reputation is fairly good in that respect. Clause 12b excludes damage caused by excessive free play so if a part isn't fitted properly and is loose there might be a problem. Clause 12f excludes damage caused by water ingress (see Paul Harris's post on March 1). As A.Jones pointed out on 27 August lots of things are excluded: hoses (13b), multimedia screen (13e), and the entire exhaust system (13h). Also excluded are most of the suspension system and the engine mounts (13k). This clause also excludes all 'adjustments' so presumably if something needs to be adjusted you're not covered.

Clauses 12g and 13g are gobbledygook, and I'm really not sure what clause 12n is supposed to mean.

The maximum value of a repair is the economic value of the vehicle at the time of repair (General term b) which will limit the application of the warranty as the vehicle ages.

Toyota can change the terms by posting updates on their website without warning - that's what General term e on the last page says and it is worded in such a way that I think Toyota want such changes to be retrospective so that they bind customers after they have bought a car. I think that if it ever came to a court case that clause would be struck down because it contravenes both general principles of contract law and (probably) consumer protection law, but it would have been nice if Toyota had said that the Ts&Cs the customer agrees to when they buy the car are the ones that will apply throughout its life.

Does anyone want my thoughts on the Hybrid cover? That's a fun piece of drafting and would be a long post.

[Gerg]

Hi, @MCatPG

Thanks for posting all that information.  That's very absorbing.

I am interested on your thoughts regarding the hybrid cover, but I'm reluctant to put you to too much trouble on my account.  Hopefully there are others, similarly intrigued by the legal angles of this document?

[MCatPG]

35 minutes ago, Gerg said:

Hi, @MCatPG

Thanks for posting all that information.  That's very absorbing.

I am interested on your thoughts regarding the hybrid cover, but I'm reluctant to put you to too much trouble on my account.  Hopefully there are others, similarly intrigued by the legal angles of this document?

The Hybrid cover is interesting. It is a real mish-mash.

To understand it you have to begin by referring back to the Additional Warranty (document 1) which lists in clause 11 the components of the Hybrid system which it covers, as follows: 'Hybrid Components (when above 5 years and 100,000 miles base warranty cover): Hybrid Battery Control Module; Hybrid Control Module; and Hybrid inverter with converter'. The "base warranty" is not defined anywhere but I think it must mean the Manufacturer's Warranty for 3 years/60,000 miles. In theory there is a gap of 2 years/40,000 miles when neither the Manufacturer's Warranty nor the Additional Warranty apply to the Hybrid system but I think this is probably a result of the draft being based on a document which was written when Toyota offered 5 years/100,000 miles manufacturer's warranty, and sloppy proof reading, not an intention to create what the law calls a lacuna.

Note that the Additional Warranty does not list the Hybrid Battery as an item which is covered in clause 11 and it is specifically excluded in clause 13a. It has its own separate cover when the Manufacturer's Warranty has expired, in document 2.

The Hybrid Battery Extended Cover (document 2)

This document is a puzzle. Parts read like a guarantee or warranty (basically the same thing) but mostly it looks like an insurance policy.

The guarantee is in clause 3 which states unequivocally that 'The full operating capacity of the following parts is guaranteed:- Hybrid Vehicle Battery.' The bottom line is that there is a fair chance a court would hold that this will override all objections to a claim if the hybrid battery fails within the period of cover.

Unfortunately the document does not say who is providing the guarantee. Is it Toyota or someone else? Clause 1 is weird because it says that the ' Extended Cover-providing retailer/repairer promises to remove all faults that arise which are covered through this Extended Cover'. It really ought to be Toyota who make that promise.

The 'Extended Cover-providing retailer/repairer' crops up many times in document 2 but the term is not defined. I think we must assume it means a Toyota Authorised Repairer. I can't imagine who else they might mean.

Everything else reads like an insurance policy and I suspect that it may be insurance backed. For example: 'The Extended Cover-providing retailer/repairer is responsible for settling claims covered by the extended Cover.' (clause 5a). By the way, if you are forced to get the work done by someone else you can you present the invoice (within a strict one month time limit) and they will reimburse you (clause 5c).

Clause 1 comfortingly covers 'undesired' failures (so if you want the hybrid battery to fail you're not covered 😃).

Clause 2a states that the Extended Cover commences when the "factory hybrid warranty" has less than 2 months or 1,000 miles to run, and again I think the person who drafted this is trying to refer to the Manufacturer's Warranty. The cover ceases when the vehicle is 15 years old.

Clause 2a also states that the Extended Cover commences the following day after an 'Extended Cover-providing retailer/repairer has successfully performed the Hybrid Battery Health Check'. I think you have to pay for the Health Checks. Clause 5 says you 'must keep the Hybrid Battery Health Check Confirmation safe and accessible at all times. An Extended Cover claim can only be considered on presentation of this confirmation'.

The extended cover following a Hybrid Battery Health Check lasts for exactly one year. The document makes it clear in clause 2 that if you're a day late you're not covered. So you must not miss the date of a check. Presumably you can get the check done early – the document doesn't say. The document states: 'Consecutive Hybrid Battery Extended Cover services can be taken out (each time for 10,000 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first) as long as the above eligibility criteria are met'. To my mind this reads exactly like an insurance policy.

The bit I really don't understand (or like) is that the Extended Cover is only valid after a successful Hybrid Battery Health Check. Does this mean that if the battery fails its health check you are no longer covered?

The actual cover is in two places. In Clause 2 under the heading 'Extended Cover performance' it says: 'If the hybrid battery fails to perform within the agreed Extended Cover period and requires consequent repairs, the customer is entitled within the framework of this cover, to the completion of the required repairs by the Extended Cover-providing retailer/repairer... or another retailer/repairer (if the fault prevents the vehicle from reaching the Extended Cover providing retailer/repairer). The Extended Cover covers all required repair costs (including all replacement parts)'. But, and this is important, it doesn't seem to cover a replacement battery. Nor does it cover damage caused by action taken because of a manufacturer recall. If there is a manufacturer recall, and the workshop messes up the battery, you're not covered. I suppose you would have to sue the workshop.

It specifically excludes damage caused by entry of water (clause 2, exclusion i). I really don't like that because we already know from Paul Harris' post on 1 March that Toyota don't pay water ingress claims.

A second list of exclusions says that cover will not be provided for vehicles which are not technically fault free (item e), so presumably if the vehicle has a fault which damages the hybrid battery you can't claim. This is important because if this happens after the Manufacturer's Warranty expires you can't fall back on the Additional Warranty because it specifically excludes the hybrid battery. If document 2 means what it says and a fault in the vehicle damages the battery after 3 years/60,000 miles I think you are stuffed.

Clause 3d says you can't claim for 'parts which have not been named in the list above' – but there is no such list. In theory this clause alone renders document 2 worthless but I don't think it would withstand a legal challenge.

I see no end of bad drafting these days. I don't know what the law schools think they are doing but on the whole they seem to be turning out a generation of lawyers who can't draft coherent documentation. The Hybrid Battery Extended Cover (document 2) is a excellent example of sloppy work. It's very poor indeed. If I was marking it as a piece of undergraduate work I would give it 4/10.

 

[fordulike]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:48 AM, fordulike said:

Wow, got a reply from Toyota, literally half hour after posting. Here's Toyota's reply:

'Thank you for your email regarding your Relax warranty query. It is important to be aware that when the Centre charges you for the initial investigation, if the issue is deemed to be a manufacturing defect the diagnosis and repair would be covered under the Relax warranty. 

Unfortunately, if anything is diagnosed as human error/abuse then the Relax warranty will not cover the diagnosis and repair.

I hope this clarifies your query'

So, that clears it then, I'm entitled to my diagnostic fee back.

Just thought I'd give an update on my situation. Put the car in for warranty work today. Unfortunately, they had ordered the wrong part, so a 3 week wait will now end up being the best part of a month. They ordered an ECU, rather than the speedo clock assembly.

Whilst I was at the dealership, I took the opportunity to ask if they were going to reimburse my diagnostic fee. They were still adamant that they don't do this, even though it's warranty work.

I showed them the email that I received from Toyota Customer Relations and the guy said to email it to him and he would send it to the manager to get a definitive answer.

I await with bated breath 😬

[MCatPG]

On 7/7/2022 at 8:47 PM, fordulike said:

.....the £340 diagnosis fee I had to pay upfront.

£340 diagnostic fee? Do you mean just plugging it in and downloading fault codes? Or something more, for example a couple of hours dismantling things and inspecting them?

[fordulike]

47 minutes ago, MCatPG said:

£340 diagnostic fee? Do you mean just plugging it in and downloading fault codes? Or something more, for example a couple of hours dismantling things and inspecting them?

They plugged it into their computer, but the Aygo ECU doesn't give much info anyway. 

Therefore, they stripped the dashboard to reveal an apparent speedo assembly fault.

[fordulike]

I said to the dealership customer service guy, that I wasn't after rocking the boat. I just wanted some clarity on the whole warranty/diagnostics fee thing.

I mean, what if it is actually 100% set in stone, that diagnostic fees are not payable or at least refundable under a warranty repair.

I would hate to think how many other Toyota owners have forked out diagnostic fees with a warranty claim, then not challenged that.

Surely, the dealership claim the repair and diagnostic fee back from Toyota, so where does the diagnostic claim back mysteriously disappear to 🤨