C-HR real world MPG

[AndyRC]

This explains why Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV) come out with such impressive MPG figures on the WLTP, Mercedes A class apparently over 200mpg. With a cycle distance of 23km a lot of PHEV will be able to complete most of the test cycle on the plug-in Battery with very little use of the ICE. I would have thought the Toyota Hybrid system is much closer to reality. 

[TonyHSD]

6 hours ago, AndyRC said:

This explains why Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV) come out with such impressive MPG figures on the WLTP, Mercedes A class apparently over 200mpg. With a cycle distance of 23km a lot of PHEV will be able to complete most of the test cycle on the plug-in battery with very little use of the ICE. I would have thought the Toyota Hybrid system is much closer to reality. 

Plug in hybrids are exclusively good for specific group of people who will drive them mostly in towns on short up to 20miles daily trips, they will be like full Ev’s most of the time and an option to fill up the tank and drive for 400+ miles in one go if you would like to do that. Many people doesn’t use them properly in real world scenarios, simply doesn’t want to bother to charge them and just fill up fuel and go, in this case they are not very efficient especially non Toyota products since they use more conventional transmissions and work as standard ice cars with the extra load from Battery and e motor. Toyota hybrids are different, even without charging the Battery the car will perform as their classic hybrids (remain efficient) but with the extra weight of 100-150kg , the car will feel as you and someone else inside although it’s just you in. The question is do you really need a plug in hybrid and how often you will need the maximum range of 400+ miles available, you probably be ok only with self change hybrid or full ev.
Toyota self charging hybrids are better invention than Tesla Ev’s and here is why: - they are still ice cars but with modern efficient petrol engines combined with e motors and relatively compact and lightweight Battery capable of million times charge and discharge, extremely good (KERS) regenerative braking, no heat or brake dust and lost energy while slowing down, energy is stored in the battery and then used by the ev motors to help ice propel the car using less fuel, again less co2 emissions, less heat and noise pollution. Unique transmission that has all weak points eliminated, no maintenance required lifetime and controlled by a computer to keep ice and e motors at maximum efficiency all the times. , all that is what I called a progress in the automotive industry and no one else has come close to Toyota offering same, similar or better drive train currently. Full Ev’s are perhaps better future proof but anyone looking for a car with internal combustion engines should look no further than Toyota hybrids. 👍

[AndyRC]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Plug in hybrids are exclusively good for specific group of people who will drive them mostly in towns on short up to 20miles daily trips, they will be like full Ev’s most of the time and an option to fill up the tank and drive for 400+ miles in one go if you would like to do that. Many people doesn’t use them properly in real world scenarios, simply doesn’t want to bother to charge them and just fill up fuel and go, in this case they are not very efficient especially non Toyota products since they use more conventional transmissions and work as standard ice cars with the extra load from battery and e motor. Toyota hybrids are different, even without charging the battery the car will perform as their classic hybrids (remain efficient) but with the extra weight of 100-150kg , the car will feel as you and someone else inside although it’s just you in. The question is do you really need a plug in hybrid and how often you will need the maximum range of 400+ miles available, you probably be ok only with self change hybrid or full ev.
Toyota self charging hybrids are better invention than Tesla Ev’s and here is why: - they are still ice cars but with modern efficient petrol engines combined with e motors and relatively compact and lightweight battery capable of million times charge and discharge, extremely good (KERS) regenerative braking, no heat or brake dust and lost energy while slowing down, energy is stored in the battery and then used by the ev motors to help ice propel the car using less fuel, again less co2 emissions, less heat and noise pollution. Unique transmission that has all weak points eliminated, no maintenance required lifetime and controlled by a computer to keep ice and e motors at maximum efficiency all the times. , all that is what I called a progress in the automotive industry and no one else has come close to Toyota offering same, similar or better drive train currently. Full Ev’s are perhaps better future proof but anyone looking for a car with internal combustion engines should look no further than Toyota hybrids. 👍

I was very impressed with the hybrid system in the C-HR, especially around town in stop go situations  , expecting to be doing over 20,000 miles per year so will get to see how efficient it is over some significant milage s. 

[GBgraham]

20 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Plug in hybrids are exclusively good for specific group of people who will drive them mostly in towns on short up to 20miles daily trips, they will be like full Ev’s most of the time and an option to fill up the tank and drive for 400+ miles in one go if you would like to do that. Many people doesn’t use them properly in real world scenarios, simply doesn’t want to bother to charge them and just fill up fuel and go, in this case they are not very efficient especially non Toyota products since they use more conventional transmissions and work as standard ice cars with the extra load from battery and e motor. Toyota hybrids are different, even without charging the battery the car will perform as their classic hybrids (remain efficient) but with the extra weight of 100-150kg , the car will feel as you and someone else inside although it’s just you in. The question is do you really need a plug in hybrid and how often you will need the maximum range of 400+ miles available, you probably be ok only with self change hybrid or full ev.
Toyota self charging hybrids are better invention than Tesla Ev’s and here is why: - they are still ice cars but with modern efficient petrol engines combined with e motors and relatively compact and lightweight battery capable of million times charge and discharge, extremely good (KERS) regenerative braking, no heat or brake dust and lost energy while slowing down, energy is stored in the battery and then used by the ev motors to help ice propel the car using less fuel, again less co2 emissions, less heat and noise pollution. Unique transmission that has all weak points eliminated, no maintenance required lifetime and controlled by a computer to keep ice and e motors at maximum efficiency all the times. , all that is what I called a progress in the automotive industry and no one else has come close to Toyota offering same, similar or better drive train currently. Full Ev’s are perhaps better future proof but anyone looking for a car with internal combustion engines should look no further than Toyota hybrids. 👍

 

This has been doing the rounds on WhatsApp and I think these are very justified points against the merits of EV's.

I probably have to agree with Toyota's stance of not committing totally to full EV's. For me the rush to go full EV is just too soon. BJ's notion of stopping all new ICE's by 2030 and Hybrid's by 2035 is just a crazy bit of political gesturing.

 

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, GBgraham said:

 

This has been doing the rounds on WhatsApp and I think these are very justified points against the merits of EV's.

I probably have to agree with Toyota's stance of not committing totally to full EV's. For me the rush to go full EV is just too soon. BJ's notion of stopping all new ICE's by 2030 and Hybrid's by 2035 is just a crazy bit of political gesturing.

 

This statement is not entirely relevant anymore since most of the latest Ev’s are way better than 5 years ago or even 3 years old models in terms of Battery capacity, charging times and energy consumption. You can literally been in your car with fully working AC or heating in any temperature for hours and only consumed a bit of your Battery charge. Unless you left home with only 20% Battery charge there is nothing to worry about, and yes electric cars are not for everyone and for all regions of the world. Governments forced switch to only Ev’s is very worrying indeed and will create a huge surge in the prices of second hand ice cars in near future. , large % of people will prefer ice cars until the very end or until there is no more fuel available at the pumps. 

[GBgraham]

28 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

This statement is not entirely relevant anymore since most of the latest Ev’s are way better than 5 years ago or even 3 years old models in terms of battery capacity, charging times and energy consumption. You can literally been in your car with fully working AC or heating in any temperature for hours and only consumed a bit of your battery charge. Unless you left home with only 20% battery charge there is nothing to worry about, and yes electric cars are not for everyone and for all regions of the world. Governments forced switch to only Ev’s is very worrying indeed and will create a huge surge in the prices of second hand ice cars in near future. , large % of people will prefer ice cars until the very end or until there is no more fuel available at the pumps. 

I don't believe the ICE will disappear, it may do in the crackpot EUSSR, Toyota, the worlds largest car manufacturer are not looking at EV's as being a replacement for ICE's, not as yet anyway. Not to mention commercial vehicles that are going to lose half the carrying weight to batteries. 

I don't agree with your analogy of no cars stranded because of discharged batteries, you have a lot more faith in the product and the human being than I do.

Have you or others on here ever sat and considered how the whole system and infrastructure is going to operate.

Charging points that take at least 20/25 minutes to 60/80% charge and some a lot longer. Imagine charging stations like filling stations blocked to the gunnels with waiting customers, and if you are at the back of the queue how long is the wait. Are Factory and Shopping Centre car parks going to be full of charging bays or are workers and customers going to have to fight for the right to use a few. 

How are properties with no off road parking going to cope. Power failures so the inability to recharge. Not to mention how NOT GREEN is the production and end of life of these vehicles. I've written this while drinking a coffee so I'm sure with more thought or another coffee the cons can just grow and grow.

As a last thought of the day on this matter, what is going to replace the tax revenue lost from fuel duty, VAT and road tax, not to mention of the extra 10-20k more to buy such a vehicle?

IMHO people are just sleepwalking into a political propaganda machine that is going to cost you dearly.

Excuse the rant😉  

[TonyHSD]

Again no argument,  different people likes different things, you are right for the most of it but I don’t agree with all.  We have an ev in the family recently and it’s a great car and cost the same as new Corolla, drives the same or even better, it’s as big as saloon or TS , and can go over 120-150 miles on a charge in pretty much all conditions, in ideal can go up to 200 miles. It suits its owner best of all type cars. She drives 20-30 miles daily, she lives in apartment, no own charging facility but the place has a free charger for residents. She drives exclusively in London, no CC charge, No ulez charge, no tax, I have been talking to her since 10 years ago that most suitable car for her lifestyle is an ev indeed, she finally decided, she is happy now. , I do try the car myself now and then and like it lot, not suitable for me though only because of the range, but I drive exceptionally long miles per day, not even Tesla can guarantee me successful completion of my work day. However people like her a lot especially in the big cities and electric cars are really best in this environment. London is already full of them, which is a good thing. E cars might not be entirely green or more Ecological than ice cars but has 0 pipe emissions and this is a real deal, not long ago I was taking my kids to school every morning and it was a nightmare, almost impossible to breathe around the school just because of so many old dirty cars. And the opposite picture I can share was in evenings when I was picking up passengers from bbc building in central London and there were mostly Priuses around the noise they were made was  similar to a sci-fi movie in the future, really nice to watch and listen the progress of automobiles until the dirty noisy diesels we’re starting to turn up and destroy the beautiful picture of silence. Electrified cars are the future, no doubt. 👍 Toyota hybrids are actually the evolution of the ice cars. , love them both🚗🚗✅

[Catlover]

3 hours ago, GBgraham said:

Charging points that take at least 20/25 minutes to 60/80% charge and some a lot longer. Imagine charging stations like filling stations blocked to the gunnels with waiting customers, and if you are at the back of the queue how long is the wait. Are Factory and Shopping Centre car parks going to be full of charging bays or are workers and customers going to have to fight for the right to use 

 

Toyota are in final stages of developing and producing a Battery that takes 10 minutes to 100% charge.                 
No doubt when in full production Toyota, or someone else, will be well advanced at one that takes 5 minutes.              
Charging points will become more common, at work, at shops etc as EV become more common. My local Tesco has already got 6 charging points and plenty room to expand to 30 or more without even affecting petrol/diesel car space.                                  
The interesting problem will be those living in flats. Technological developments will solve all problems, 5 years is a long time for technology to change, 10 years, wow, what will things be like.

[TonyHSD]

Agreed with Joe, plus there will be a wireless charging points, all you need is to park on top, this can help a lot, imagine half a large parking in shopping centre has those wireless charger bays.. The technology these days is moving forward at high speeds, what seems difficult or almost impossible today would probably be a normal thing in a few years time. 👍

[Cyker]

Noooo you don't want wireless charging... well unless you really hate cats 

The efficiency is pretty poor -  The energy dropoff is an inverse-square with distance so unless the pad and receptor are practically touching you waste so much power the overall efficiency is back to ICE levels.

And cats like sleeping on warm things under cover.

That thing about people being stranded in 3 hour jams is bunk; It's about as accurate as people running out of fuel in a 3 hour jam - Unless you're stupid or very unlucky, it's unlikely to happen. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it's not going to be any more common place than similar existing problems.

I suspect ICE will start to disappear eventually as surely we will run out of oil (We were supposed to 10 years ago according to the predictions we were taught in GCSE Science ), but I think diesel will hang around for a long time as there is literally nothing that can beat it for motive power - Literally everything in our material lives has involved transportation by diesel at some point.

And even when we run out of oil, the diesel cycle will run on literally any combustible fuel, so there is a good chance we can cheaply synthesize something for it to run on (Synthesizing something that is directly compatible with petrol engines is a lot harder!)

The problem with EVs is they have so many downsides vs ICE - They're bigger than ICE cars but have less space in them, they have worse range, they're much more expensive to buy, and unless you have access to free or home charging, they are rapidly becoming more expensive to 'fuel' as the cost of public chargers keeps creeping up, and the charging is a PITA - You have to deal with non-functioning chargers, different brands that may or may not require you to be a member or have a special RFID token, knowing about the different connectors and charger types etc.

EVs are already on par with ICE for running costs if you only use public chargers - The least efficient EVs with the most expensive chargers are already more expensive to 'fuel' than a GR Yaris! And this is now - If they levy a fuel tax on public chargers like they do with petrol and diesel it will double/triple the cost!

Conversely the main advantages for EVs are they are zero emission at the point of use, and electric motors are awesome.

In my eyes the critical element for EVs will be better batteries (Or some better alternative to batteries) to crack that 300-mile range without needing a giant land boat, and for EVERY supermarket and carpark to have EV charging points in EVERY bay.

Super-fast chargers will absolutely kill Battery life, so having slow, cheap chargers you can leave while you shop is far better for long term sustainability.

It takes far too long to charge to use the same model as ICE and petrol stations - Even 10 minutes is way too long, and I dread to think about the kind of amperage required for something like that. The cable losses alone will be awful!

Going somewhere just to charge regularly will get annoying really fast - Literally wasting hours of your life - but if it's doing it while you're shopping then that will have no impact on peoples time and I reckon everyone will be a lot more receptive. But those chargers HAVE to be reliable - A lot of them are really poorly maintained at the moment and playing charger roulette when you have 2% Battery is really not good for the heart...!

What I want at the moment is a Mr Fusion conversion for my Mk4! 

[AndyRC]

Our local Tesco have just installed 6 charging points, we know have 10 in town , two years ago there weren’t any at all. The infrastructure is developing and will accelerate as the move to BEV increases. BEV don’t suit everyone but they do work for a lot of people. My neighbour has just bought one and with solar panels on their roof are also charging it for free if they top up during the day. 

[GBgraham]

I think you are all missing the point and looking through rose coloured spectacles. I can choose to give you so many pro's and merits to EV's. I have done many miles in the Nissan Leaf and BMW i3 so I'm not totally ignorant to the pleasures of an EV. (I think the Leaf may have been the topic of your post TonyHSD)

Toyota may be developing a new Battery but they have stated they don't intend to enter the EV market at least until 2025. Is this a brave or foolish stance from the biggest car manufacturer in the world? They have put their money into developing and producing hydrogen ICE. They are also looking at the development of  using ammonia fuelled ICE and no doubt a lot that is not common knowledge. 

Apart from what I have mentioned in my earlier post,  one must look harder at the con's such as solar panels in the roof, this is just a total gimmick, the cost and the extra weight out weigh the benefits, especially in the UK. I have lived with solar panels in the Med for ten years so I can say I'm quite au fait with there operation, and even in the Med the lack of operation. So Tesco have put in 6 charging points, which system do they support, who do you pay and is six enough in percentage? How many Flats/apartments/town houses/terraced properties etc are there in the UK alone where it will not be possible to receive any charging stations. Charging pads are highly unlikely because of it's cost and practicality to the whole infrastructure to serve such properties and if it was so close to happening why aren't new vehicles being fitted with the ability for the future. Just imagine the strain on the sub stations from huge increase of megawatts needed, supply interruptions will be inevitable. We all know how much one car broken down (discharged state or failure)  in the wrong place can cause huge congestion. As for running out of oil/fuel for ICE's, I very much doubt this but certain governments are ordering the stoppage of any new explorations by the majors. Read into that what you may.

At the end of the day there will be only one group that will be holding the all the costs, and that will be the end user.  

That's my coffee finished so this old cynic will go off and find something useful to do😉

[Charles2021]

Just to be pedantic, please, please, don't use the word "amperage," it's like saying "that river has a big gallonage." The correct word to use is "current," so there. 😂

[Catlover]

1 hour ago, GBgraham said:

Toyota may be developing a new battery but they have stated they don't intend to enter the EV market at least until 2025. Is this a brave or foolish stance from the biggest car manufacturer in the world? They have put their money into developing and producing hydrogen ICE. They are also looking at the development of  using ammonia fuelled ICE and no doubt a lot that is not common knowledge. 

Toyota releasing their first electric vehicle later 2021 I think it is in Asia, probably it’s biggest market.

[AndyRC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947
 

We are living in a time of major transition for vehicles, like it or not. Interesting article on the BBC website.  I’m old enough to remember the transition from steam to diesel power on the railways (my dad was a train driver), the demise of the U.K. coal industry (my first job) , my first email at work. I recall none of which were seen as being a positive thing but none the less they occurred in a pretty short timeframe. A few years back about the only electric cars about were Tesla , Leaf and i3 , the choice now is extensive and increasing by the day, whilst ICE choice is decreasing at the same rate. 

[Cyker]

8 hours ago, Charles2021 said:

Just to be pedantic, please, please, don't use the word "amperage," it's like saying "that river has a big gallonage." The correct word to use is "current," so there. 😂

Yeah sorry, I had a brain !Removed! and couldn't think of the right word! 

Maybe I should have re-written it as "the number of amps required" or something like that...

[AndyRC]

To get back on track, on the first tank of fuel the on board computer was saying 57.1 mpg over a mix of motorway , hilly cross country and local around town stuff with air con on most of the time. When I calculated it came out at 58.4 mpg which is the first time I’ve had a car return better figures than the on board computer. It will take a few more thousand miles and different weather conditions to have a complete picture on fuel consumption but so far we’re very pleased with the car in every way.  The MyT app is also proving to be a great tool for tracking trips. 👍🙂

[GBgraham]

On 7/23/2021 at 11:08 AM, AndyRC said:

To get back on track, on the first tank of fuel the on board computer was saying 57.1 mpg over a mix of motorway , hilly cross country and local around town stuff with air con on most of the time. When I calculated it came out at 58.4 mpg which is the first time I’ve had a car return better figures than the on board computer. It will take a few more thousand miles and different weather conditions to have a complete picture on fuel consumption but so far we’re very pleased with the car in every way.  The MyT app is also proving to be a great tool for tracking trips. 👍🙂

I don't know if this is correct but I was told by my salesperson that the car fuel trip system would need 2 or 3 tank fills to become accurate. He was Greek so anything can be expected!!

The MyT app is only showing the last trip, is there any other way of going further back in historic trips.

[AndyRC]

21 hours ago, GBgraham said:

I don't know if this is correct but I was told by my salesperson that the car fuel trip system would need 2 or 3 tank fills to become accurate. He was Greek so anything can be expected!!

The MyT app is only showing the last trip, is there any other way of going further back in historic trips.

The sales guy is correct to the extent that the more data in the system will help average out any unusually high or low readings you may have had. On the My T app If you click on the “services” button at the bottom of the Home Screen, second from the left, and choose “Hybrid coaching” and then “All trips”  you can see each trip in detail 👍🙂

[GBgraham]

1 hour ago, AndyRC said:

The sales guy is correct to the extent that the more data in the system will help average out any unusually high or low readings you may have had. On the My T app If you click on the “services” button at the bottom of the Home Screen, second from the left, and choose “Hybrid coaching” and then “All trips”  you can see each trip in detail 👍🙂

Cheers for the clarification and info, appreciated👍

[Gorf]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:41 AM, GBgraham said:

 

This has been doing the rounds on WhatsApp and I think these are very justified points against the merits of EV's.

I probably have to agree with Toyota's stance of not committing totally to full EV's. For me the rush to go full EV is just too soon. BJ's notion of stopping all new ICE's by 2030 and Hybrid's by 2035 is just a crazy bit of political gesturing.

 

Which? has done a test of exactly this scenario.

 

In terms of C-HR economy, I've only just got mine second-hand so I'm not really qualified to say too much, but a 7.7 mile journey from the Fence Gate pub to Great Harwood in the early evening starting from cold came out at 77mpg. 50mph all the way except for 30mph for a couple of miles mid journey and 30mph for the last ½ mile or so. (No traffic, but two traffic light stops.)

[Cyker]

Yeah of all the things to worry about with EVs (And there are many), that is one of the more stupid ones.

It's no different than ICE cars running their engines in the same traffic jam for hours, and we all know how quick the AC can make the fuel needle drop!

But I've rarely seen an ICE car run out of fuel stuck in a traffic jam (You'd have to be a special kind of idiot to not think to turn off the car surely), and at least with EV's you've not got loads of cars pumping out CO2 and stuff while everyone's stationary.

[AndyRC]

After a few months the 2.0 C-HR is averaging around 59 mpg with 54/55 mpg on motorways and around 62/63 on urban/town driving which we are very happy with. The car is very relaxing to drive,  around town and motorway and the ride is very good. Apple car play hooks up nicely from an iPhone as we always use Waze rather than the inbuilt sat nav. So far very happy 🙂

[AndyRC]

On 9/4/2021 at 4:15 PM, Cyker said:

Yeah of all the things to worry about with EVs (And there are many), that is one of the more stupid ones.

It's no different than ICE cars running their engines in the same traffic jam for hours, and we all know how quick the AC can make the fuel needle drop!

But I've rarely seen an ICE car run out of fuel stuck in a traffic jam (You'd have to be a special kind of idiot to not think to turn off the car surely), and at least with EV's you've not got loads of cars pumping out CO2 and stuff while everyone's stationary.

And noise, the number of cars which appears to have the catalytic converter removed/gutted and the exhaust changed or “modified” is increasing exponentially in our area ☹️

[Yugguy1970]

I'll sound like an old man but I've never understood the need for droning noise for the sake of noise.

I love the sound of V engines.  Next door has a Porsche Panamera V6, it's loud but it's the engine you hear, not just a pointless boom.