New Rav4 PHEV

[Roy124]

Quote

nt Hybrid system power you on to your destination.d all Hybrid.
travel more than 46^ miles on EV power alone with its new 18.1 kW lithium-ion battery. After that, simply let the RAV4’s efficient Hybrid system power you on to your destination. It’s all SUV and all Hybrid. 

Is this stretching the point?  I can appreciate that it might do 46 miles on EV but when it then reverts to its efficient Hybrid system power = what does this mean?  Is it now pure ICE until the next plug in?  To my mind, after driving a Corolla Hybrid, it suggests that the Battery and engine will then work as in the Corolla. Which is it, only ICE or  self charging too?

[Catlover]

From the quote you put up it says”After that, simply let the RAV4’s efficient Hybrid system power you on to your destination.”  I take that to mean after the EV Battery expires then the hybrid system of battery/ice takes over and the vehicle will perform as if it was just an hybrid vehicle, just the same as a Prius PHEV.

[ernieb]

I have the 2021 PHEV and I’m currently getting over 50 miles with the AC switched on with an EV charge.  The reality is that whilst it’s an 18.1Kw Battery 30% is reserved for the normal Toyota HV (hybrid) mode.  In the HV mode I’ve been getting between 55 and 65 mpg on a regular basis.  Never below low 50’s and often more than 65mpg.  The car will run up to 84mph on EV and whilst the acceleration is not the same as when using the ICE Battery combination it’s still very respectable.  The switch between EV and HV is seamless and I on,y notice it’s switch when the EV icon goes off.

My driving style is defensive and I tend to anticipate traffic lights and lift and coast, if traffic allows, but I used to always do that as I can never see the sense in accelerating to the lights only to have to brake.  That said I drive at the road speed limits.  The MyT app gives me details of every trip and an analysis of acceleration, braking, mpg average speed etc.

[Roy124]

Thank you both.  A criticism of plug in hybrids was that once the Battery was 'used up' the car ran on ICE dragging its empty Battery around.  This sounds much better.  The difference between the RAV4 and the Corolla then is the Battery size - 18 against 3 (roughly).  Personally I think the RAV4 is a bit too big as I am enjoying the smaller size and agility of the Corolla when compared with a Merc 220D Estate.

[philip42h]

Comparing a RAV4 and a Corolla is a bit pointless since they are rather different vehicles - a better comparison would be between the RAV4 PHEV (like Ernie's) and a RAV4 HEV (like mine). The only real difference between the two is the 'P' - the 'plug', the built-in charger and bigger Battery - otherwise they are essentially the same hybrid vehicles.

The bigger Battery on the PHEV gives a fully electric range of around 40 / 50 miles dependent upon many things, and this uses stored energy from the 'mains'. The smaller Battery on the HEV has a fully electric range of maybe a mile if you are lucky, and even then all the stored energy came from burning fuel.

If your daily commute is, say, 20 miles out and 20 miles back then you can do the whole journey 'without burning any fossil fuel' - which is a good thing for the environment and the PHEV wins ...

... economically the PHEV costs around £10k more that the HEV which at a notional 45 mpg for the HEV and the current price of petrol means that you will need to travel around 60,000 miles before you recover the additional cost. For many of us the PHEV simply doesn't make economic sense ... unfortunately ...

Edit: and with the HEV you don't need to lug about the extra weight of the bigger battery and charger etc. ... 😉

[ernieb]

@philip42h,  I think that more or less sums things up quite reasonably.  Like all these things it’s down to individual taste and circumstances.  I’m retired, but non the less clock up 12-13k per year.  What I’m finding currently and this will change to some extent when it’s colder is that all of my local driving is covered by the mains charged Battery only using the engine when we travel further and that is usually via a 70 mph carriageway, and cruse control etc., works very effectively at managing the economy of the car.  Summer or winter I can precondition the car, defrost etc., whilst the charging cable is connected to the car, no Battery or petrol just the mains.  Since we’ve had the car we have used it to cool it and a couple of times to heat it, it’s nice getting into a car that’s already comfortable.  The charging can be done overnight, lower tariff?, and tell the car when you want to start your trip, it will be charged, comfortable and ready to go.

There is a lot buried in the car that’s not obvious which may or may not be considered beneficial.  Right now I’m very happy with the choice even though I blanched at the price when I first saw it and the additional road tax etc. I’m enjoying every minute and every time I drive it, quiet, refined and can go like zip when you need too, It may be heavy but 0-60mph in 5.7secs is not bad.

[ernieb]

Just as a matter on interest I’ve just charged the car and this is what the MyT app is reporting as the expected range on this charge, typically these are pretty accurate.

 

 

[Rigsby]

4 hours ago, philip42h said:

Comparing a RAV4 and a Corolla is a bit pointless since they are rather different vehicles - a better comparison would be between the RAV4 PHEV (like Ernie's) and a RAV4 HEV (like mine). The only real difference between the two is the 'P' - the 'plug', the built-in charger and bigger battery - otherwise they are essentially the same hybrid vehicles.

The bigger battery on the PHEV gives a fully electric range of around 40 / 50 miles dependent upon many things, and this uses stored energy from the 'mains'. The smaller battery on the HEV has a fully electric range of maybe a mile if you are lucky, and even then all the stored energy came from burning fuel.

If your daily commute is, say, 20 miles out and 20 miles back then you can do the whole journey 'without burning any fossil fuel' - which is a good thing for the environment and the PHEV wins ...

... economically the PHEV costs around £10k more that the HEV which at a notional 45 mpg for the HEV and the current price of petrol means that you will need to travel around 60,000 miles before you recover the additional cost. For many of us the PHEV simply doesn't make economic sense ... unfortunately ...

Edit: and with the HEV you don't need to lug about the extra weight of the bigger battery and charger etc. ... 😉

I’ve just got a new RAV4 Hybrid (self charging) and did look at the PHEV model, but there was about a £11k difference in list price plus the difference in road tax and for me it just didn’t work out.

That £11k plus the extra road tax over the first 6 years of ownership buys you an awful lot of petrol.

If the gap had been much smaller I may have been tempted but not as it stands.

[Cyker]

When the ICE is running it's always charging the Battery unless you're flooring it - When I'm on a motorway cruise, my Mk4 is constantly cycling between running the ICE to drive the wheels and charge the Battery, then when it gets some arbitrary point above 50% SoC it then switches to Battery mode until the charge drops to a certain level, then the ICE kicks in again etc.

I think this is one of the reasons the TNGA Hybrids have so much better mpg than the older ones - The previous gen hybrids couldn't drive on battery power alone at motorway speeds so the ICE was always running; This made them great around town but ICE-like at higher speeds.

I nearly got it to 80mpg tank-average on the way home after I had to refuel at a motorway services! (Probably could have made it home but bottled it because I don't know what the fuel gauge is like on this... on my Mk2 it was ridiculously inaccurate; First 2 bars out of 8 was 50% of the tank, and 4 bars remaining was a quarter of the tank! We all know this is because it was a V-shaped tank, but would it have killed them to calibrate the fuel gauge to account for that?!)

[ernieb]

Agree about the fuel gauge.  When i fill mine to the first click the needle reads well over the full mark and the "reserve" section in blue is massive.  This is either very none linear or has a large reserve capacity. (this is the blue section below the E indication in photo) From my research I suspect it's both.  The digital range estimate is fairly accurate with the provision that it's based on the past driving conditions not the futures.

 

[AJones]

18 hours ago, Roy124 said:

A criticism of plug in hybrids was that once the battery was 'used up' the car ran on ICE dragging its empty battery around.

Similarly I've seen criticism of PHEVs being sold to company car drivers, who chose them for the benefit of lower taxes but then never plugged them in. There's been reports of PHEVs where even after several years use the original charging cables were still in their packaging, so despite being a PHEV with potentially high efficiency, their actual performance in real world usage was no better than a regular Hybrid or similarly efficient ICE. 

Also worth mentioning that you can force the engine to recharge the Battery. The Prius and I believe the RAV4 both have a charge mode. In terms of carbon emissions it's probably not saving anything because its using the petrol engine, but it might have some air quality benefit if you recharged your Battery while driving out in the countryside or on the motorway, before driving into a city or low emission zone on electric.

[philip42h]

That's an interesting picture Ernie ...

First, you are misreading the gauge - its shows full to empty but the 'reserve' is not marked at all. When you are on reserve the needle will show below empty ... and you would be well advised to fill up ASAP.

Toyota have traditionally been very conservative with the amount of reserve on the RAV4 and this continues into the 4.5. If I run until the light comes on - around 25 miles HV range - and then a bit I can get only 48L into my 55L tank. I have never yet run the car to 'empty' but I'd guess if I did I'd still have around 5L left. Toyota are conservative.

As shown on your display, from full to empty you have 521 miles HV range - the reserve would take you beyond that if you want to live dangerously ... and, interestingly, that's exactly the same range to empty that mine showed last time I filled up I find the "range to empty" rather more useful that the precise position of the fuel gauge.

The EV "Battery tank" gauge doesn't seem too linear either - with around two thirds of the gauge to go it suggests only 20 miles EV range - which could imply a total EV range of around 30 miles, and, I understand that you are doing considerably better than that. But at the end of the day "who cares" - you are fine until both gauges read empty and you have zero miles range left - and even then you'll have a fuel reserve for a while yet!

I'm interested to note that you average eV 'consumption' is 3.3 miles / kWh (so ~300 Wh / mile as a BEV). If as you suggest you can get around 50 miles EV range from a full Battery this suggests that you are using around 15 kWh of your nominally 18.1 kWh Battery to provide pure EV range - the balance of the useable battery capacity will be devoted to the KERS / self charging capability. The HEV has a 1.6 kWh battery devoted to this function ...

[Roy124]

Philip "Comparing a RAV4 and a Corolla is a bit pointless since they are rather different vehicles "  Not really what I was saying.  I was saying I preferred the smaller Corolla to the larger RAV to that comparison is valid.  My original question was clarified by the answer that the Corolla and others a HEV have the smaller Battery than the PHEV which will operate as both Plugin and HEV.

Regarding charger cables not being unpacked, perhaps there was no need if the charger point had the cable? 

[philip42h]

36 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

I preferred the smaller Corolla to the larger RAV

... and, of course the Yaris is smaller still - and therefore maybe even more preferred? 😉 But I do take the point - my wife now has a C-HR which is just as performant and comfortable as my RAV but with a smaller footprint on the road. There are times when the RAV does feel rather 'large' and the PVM is a positive boon ...

On the charging cables (in Outlander PHEVs) remaining in their packaging - there are many ways in which owners / drivers could charge their cars without using the supplied cables, but most PHEVs / BEVs will be charged at home using the supplied cables. And there is more than a little evidence that the company car driver was attracted to the Outlander PHEV more or less entirely due to the tax benefits. Company car drivers aren't stupid - they don't make the rules, they just get to play the game.

[Yugguy1970]

I guess it's correct but I have the latest RAv4 price list and it describes the width as 1855mm, which is actually narrower than my Focus hatch.  It's only as long as a Corolla estate as well.  I think it looks bigger as it is taller.

[Yugguy1970]

[ernieb]

@philip42h, firstly, hands up that’s not a photo from my car just a lift from an online review.  I was just being lazy.  Mine currently shows 3.9miles/kw having just reset it a week ago when it was 4.1miles/kw, sorry for the confusion. I think I’ve mention before but the Battery is never really “fully” charged and reserves 30% for the HV mode, so if I calculate that full is 96% and reserve is 30% then I get 12.1kw available at say 3.5miles/kw you get 42 miles, typically what Toyota would say.  This is very rough and ready and no doubt Toyota manage the system much better as I’m constantly getting better results and range. So I think it’s somewhere between the 12 to 15kw number. I’ve always used a lift and coast technique and this seems to get a good level of energy.

The photo attached is the current MyT app opening page showing current range, in addition to the displayed HV range I’ve already driven 115miles, 50 on EV so used fuel for 65 miles so if the tank was full the range on HV would be about 590miles. 
 

@AJones, there is a charge hold mode that will maintain the Battery or charge it but this is limited to about 80%.  It very inefficient according to Toyota.

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Yugguy1970 said:

I guess it's correct but I have the latest RAv4 price list and it describes the width as 1855mm, which is actually narrower than my Focus hatch.  It's only as long as a Corolla estate as well.  I think it looks bigger as it is taller.

The real width is around 2160mm - I measured just now. I can well believe that it is 1855mm as measure by Toyota. Yes, it is quite normal for manufacturer's to omit the extent of the wing mirrors, but we do need to get the wing mirrors through gaps as well... 😉 

The RAV4 has got larger generation by generation and, with the 4.5, I need to take rather more care than I want to have to take to slot the car into the garage ... The PVM is excellent for this - so I'm now 'dependent' upon yet another bit of tech! 🙂

The C-HR is 1795 mm wide (c.f. 1855) so that's 60mm narrower and 'fits' that much more easily. It's a different proposition when it comes to lugging masses of stuff about which is where the RAV wins hands down ...

[philip42h]

30 minutes ago, ernieb said:

The photo attached is the current MyT app opening page showing current range, in addition to the displayed HV range I’ve already driven 115miles, 50 on EV so used fuel for 65 miles so if the tank was full the range on HV would be about 590miles.

Another interesting snapshot Ernie. The MyT app for mine doesn't show range - it simply shows "Fuel 36%" ... which is fine - I know that I don't need to fill up just yet - but showing the cruising range figure from the car as well would be more helpful.

I am guessing that the range figure shown on yours is a combined HV + EV figure? I.e. around 50 miles on EV plus another 470 on the fuel you have in your tank? Giving an HV range of around 535 miles from a full tank of fuel, plus another 50 miles if the Battery is fully charged ...

Again, who really cares - these cars work pretty well anyway.

[AndyRC]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

... and, of course the Yaris is smaller still - and therefore maybe even more preferred? 😉 But I do take the point - my wife now has a C-HR which is just as performant and comfortable as my RAV but with a smaller footprint on the road. There are times when the RAV does feel rather 'large' and the PVM is a positive boon ...

On the charging cables (in Outlander PHEVs) remaining in their packaging - there are many ways in which owners / drivers could charge their cars without using the supplied cables, but most PHEVs / BEVs will be charged at home using the supplied cables. And there is more than a little evidence that the company car driver was attracted to the Outlander PHEV more or less entirely due to the tax benefits. Company car drivers aren't stupid - they don't make the rules, they just get to play the game.

PHEV definitely make a lot of sense for company car users , the BIK can easily be halved compared to the same petrol/diesel fuel model. The wife had one and had chosen another but changed jobs which gave her an allowance rather than a company car. She’s decided to go Hybrid C-HR , she loves the looks and way it drives, cheaper than many  PHEV and  doing longer journeys, she’s hoping to see a regular 50mpg with the C-HR 

[Yugguy1970]

Thanks, 2160mm.  My current 2019 Mk4 Focus is 1979mm with mirrors so not too much smaller.  

After the test drive I made a point of parking it back in the same place in the forecourt so I could prove I could manouver it.🤣

[ernieb]

@philip42h, yes, the range is the combined EV+HV as you stated. As you say the Toyota hybrid cars work beautifully and I’m honestly impressed with the way the systems works.  The HVAC system is something else just hope it does not go wrong I’d really need to find a Toyota dealer that understands the system, however, it does work very effectively and again very impressed.

[Roy124]

I don't want to stay too far from the original thread, but while the RAV might be too big, and I like the Corolla, it is just slightly too small.  Size however was not what put me off the Yaris but the lack of obstruction sensors. 

[Islandape]

21 hours ago, AndyRC said:

PHEV definitely make a lot of sense for company car users , the BIK can easily be halved compared to the same petrol/diesel fuel model. The wife had one and had chosen another but changed jobs which gave her an allowance rather than a company car. She’s decided to go Hybrid C-HR , she loves the looks and way it drives, cheaper than many  PHEV and  doing longer journeys, she’s hoping to see a regular 50mpg with the C-HR 

I don't know about the 2.0, but my 1.8 Icon was impossible to get below 50 MPG including motorway work, stop/go urban and country roads.  Neither my wife or I drive that slowly...

[Yugguy1970]

16 hours ago, Roy124 said:

I don't want to stay too far from the original thread, but while the RAV might be too big, and I like the Corolla, it is just slightly too small.  Size however was not what put me off the Yaris but the lack of obstruction sensors. 

It was the lack of rear headroom in the Corolla that put us off it.  Just a little bit more would have made all the difference.