New Rav4 PHEV

[PeteB]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:53 AM, philip42h said:

...On the charging cables (in Outlander PHEVs) remaining in their packaging - there are many ways in which owners / drivers could charge their cars without using the supplied cables, but most PHEVs / BEVs will be charged at home using the supplied cables. And there is more than a little evidence that the company car driver was attracted to the Outlander PHEV more or less entirely due to the tax benefits. Company car drivers aren't stupid - they don't make the rules, they just get to play the game.

I have read comments from Outlander PHEV Company Car drivers pointing out that their firms paid for their petrol but not electricity, so there was a further disincentive to charge them.  There was plenty of evidence that these models in particular were often never charged by company car drivers, in which case there is some validity in suggesting their mpg and emissions will be worse than a non-plug-in Hybrid version (had there been one) due to the extra weight of the larger Battery and supporting equipment.  That said, they might still be cleaner than a basic diesel or petrol equivalent.

During the 10 years I had compony cars I treated them as if they were my own, but plenty of colleagues found it too much trouble to even check the oil once a year, to check tyre pressures or to fill the screen wash reservoir when empty, so had there been PHEVs in those days I wouldn't have found it too surprising if they didn't bother to plug in.

[ernieb]

2021 PHEV:
I’ve just completed approx 210 miles in two trips without any EV Battery at a measured average of 53mpg, this was driving at the actual speed limits as measured the gps.  I’ve just charged the Battery using a power monitoring adapter and from the 30% HV reserve to 100% full this took 15kW.  Therefor the HV reserve must be approx 3kW which is strange as when the Battery is EV depleted the app says it’s 30% capacity which would be nearer 5kW. 
The trips were is very poor wet weather, at night so lights, wipers etc. I was impressed with the standard fit tyres, Yokohama Advent in the wet standing water on the M1. My previous experience of Yokohama tyres on a Subaru Forrester was not good at all.

[Rav Rob]

On 7/3/2021 at 11:34 AM, PeteB said:

I have read comments from Outlander PHEV Company Car drivers pointing out that their firms paid for their petrol but not electricity, so there was a further disincentive to charge them.  There was plenty of evidence that these models in particular were often never charged by company car drivers, in which case there is some validity in suggesting their mpg and emissions will be worse than a non-plug-in Hybrid version (had there been one) due to the extra weight of the larger battery and supporting equipment.  That said, they might still be cleaner than a basic diesel or petrol equivalent.

During the 10 years I had compony cars I treated them as if they were my own, but plenty of colleagues found it too much trouble to even check the oil once a year, to check tyre pressures or to fill the screen wash reservoir when empty, so had there been PHEVs in those days I wouldn't have found it too surprising if they didn't bother to plug in.

The Outlander PHEV was a poor hybrid, in the near 5 years I ran mine, driven with extreme caution I could just eek 40mpg on petrol alone but if you drove most comparable cars in that manner you would get much more. Driven anything like normal it easily became a 30mpg car. By comparison the Toyota system is hugely more efficient, even in PHEV format with an equally heavy Battery.

As you mention, it would be near impossible for employers to reimburse for electricity in a way that is acceptable to inland revenue, its impossible too to prove which miles were done on electricity and which were petrol and pay the driver appropriately.

My employer took the decision to pay PHEV drivers the HMRC set AFR rates for just a petrol car and ignore which fuel source the driver used. So I very much plugged mine in religiously as it directly made me better off, electric miles are cheaper than petrol miles but I was paid as if they were all petrol.
Infact in the early years I charged often on the Ecotricity rapid chargers as they were free to use so I was getting free electric miles I was getting petrol money for from my employer!!

I do know of people that were kept on fuel cards by their employers and of course never plugged them in, why would you run up your domestic bill to subsidise your work miles?
Then Mitsubishi made it 'worse' environmentally but better for drivers by putting a bigger petrol engine in, so it was eligible for more generous fuel reimbursement rate with no loss of efficiency, I know those drivers never plugged in as they didn't need to.

 

[Lawnmowerman]

I notice a number of posts commenting on the not inconsiderable extra cost of the PHEV.

No one has factored in the (fingers crossed) higher retail value of the vehicle retained as against a Hybrid.

 

[ernieb]

@Lawnmowerman, interesting comment.  I’m not sure how that will work out when the cars purchased on lease or as company cars come onto the market.  My guess is that they will likely be snapped up pretty quickly which might push up the retained value.

I bought mine as a keeper until either the EV charging network becomes much better established and widespread (and reliable) There seems to be growing interest in hydrogen powered cars and note that James May has just bought his second both being Toyota.  

[Lawnmowerman]

19 minutes ago, ernieb said:

@Lawnmowerman, interesting comment.  I’m not sure how that will work out when the cars purchased on lease or as company cars come onto the market.  My guess is that they will likely be snapped up pretty quickly which might push up the retained value.

I bought mine as a keeper until either the EV charging network becomes much better established and widespread (and reliable) There seems to be growing interest in hydrogen powered cars and note that James May has just bought his second both being Toyota.  

Yes, hydrogen - advantages - zero emission. Disadvantages - complex ICE.

EV - advantages - simple motor. Disadvantages - Lithium batteries.

Toyota may be swimming against the tide I'm afraid.

[Yugguy1970]

EV is great for the middle classes with drives.  Not so much for a row of terraces.

 

 

[ernieb]

@Lawnmowerman, I do think the new Toyota/Panasonic so called solid state batteries, still lithium will make a difference.  Larger capacity with higher density extended life, lighter and fast charging, maybe 80% in 10mins.

The problem currently with hydrogen is the really poor efficiency in its manufacture.  It works to my mind only if in a large scale they can use renewable energy and that would only be effective if they can store electrical energy when the grid has overcapacity, e.g at night with wave or wind turbines. Unless we can get nuclear fusion to work, let’s see what happens at the trial plant in Oxford.

[ernieb]

@Yugguy1970, I think there are a lot of “middle classes” living in terraced houses. I’ve read that there are trials of chargers being incorporated into lamp posts and induction charging. There needs to be solutions to make EV work for sure and it’s going to take a lot of thinking outside the box if the target dates are going to be achieved and the use of fossil fuel powered cars reduced even by a small amount. So as I said above super fast charging with the car charged when you visit the supermarket?

[IanML]

2 hours ago, Lawnmowerman said:

Yes, hydrogen - advantages - zero emission. Disadvantages - complex ICE.

I think you'll find that hydrogen for an ICE is now regarded as a dead duck.  The future use of hydrogen is for fuel cell propulsion.  Obviously, the infrastructure for manufacture and distribution will be required, but to my mind, the eventual solution is a hydrogen fuel cell - Battery hybrid. This is attractive because the fuel cell has a time lag to power increase/decrease, which the Battery can overcome, either by supplying extra power, or storing excess output, and the Battery will improve efficiency by facilitating regenerative braking.  I believe Honda has one such model on sale in California.

[AJones]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

I’ve read that there are trials of chargers being incorporated into lamp posts and induction charging

I think the lamp post chargers have already moved from trials into routine operation. If you have a look at Zap Map, the website/app showing EV charging points and zoom in on London, you'll see a forrest of yellow pins showing mostly Ubitricity and char.gy 3kW lamp post chargers. There's also  char.gy points being rolled out in Coventry.

But it's quite striking how uneven the provision is, London and some cities have several chargers on each street whereas its only several chargers per town in many parts of the country, if that.

[ernieb]

@AJones, that's interesting i thought they were all still part of the trial.  I absolutely agree about the patchy nature of charging points.  I can really understand why the big cities are the first, just like 5G networks, it makes perfect sense and will give a quick return.  However, there seems little incentive to extend these networks.  I'm amazed at how few there are still at service station on motorways where you might expect them to be much denser. If I look at places we visit regularly then in some towns there maybe 1 or 2 at best.  It also means that you need too often subscribe to everyone of the different suppliers and even then they may not be working. I've read that the Polar brand ones have a very poor level of reliability.

[Yugguy1970]

The Mirai is fuel cell/battery.  This is what I would prefer for the future.  Fill up in a few minutes, and get a proper range, doesn't need massive Battery packs. 

I did ponder EV next, I have a garage to house a decent charger and a driveway.  But I'm not ready yet to give up the ease and range of ICE-based, which is why I've gone hybrid.

But yes, the key is to be able to produce hydrogen cheaply and cleanly.   I've been reading about that new fusion experiment, that's great but in the meanwhile we are an island surrounded by wind and water.   Let's use these.

[ernieb]

+1, for using our own natural resources but boy would I like to for the UK to manufacture the equipment and control systems. Without being political we need to be as independent for economic and strategic reasons.

[Nick72]

Not sure if this is the best place to ask but I've spent some time on RAV4World which is mostly Americans. 

Two questions if I may...

 

1. What's the difference between the UK and USA versions?

Here's what I think but not 100pc. We dont get the digital rear view mirror. We dobt get a spare wheel. We do get 6.6kW charger as standard. Any other differences?

2. Is there much usable space under the boot floor panel?

3. Any issues with chip crisis and missing features?

Mine is on order. Dynamic Premium with the protection plus pack. Decuma grey.

 

I cancelled my Volvo XC60 T6 Recharge order given they kept it quiet that it was now no longer coming with half the safety features like blind spot, cross traffic and more. Chip crisis. I was also in two minds anyway. Volvo or the RAV4. Different beasts.

 

 

[ernieb]

@Nick72, well as far as I can tell that will be two of us with the RAV4 PHEV?

Attached is the release document which details what's included.  

Effectively Toyota has chips as it decided on a contingency plan after the nuclear plant problem in Japan a few years ago that caused so many problems.  As far as I know it created a rolling stock pile and agreed with its suppliers to hold contingency materials for manufacture and processing. They also hold stock in some of these companies injecting money and development engineering skills.

As i've indicated elsewhere mine was ordered and arrived on time.

You can get a spare wheel under the boot cover.

1610985654210114MRAV4PHEVFullRelease.pdf

[ernieb]

Should have added that you do get both charging cables, mains plug Type 2 mode 2 and the and the fast (?) charge type 2 to type 2.  I've always used the mains cable and it charges as spec'd from empty (30%) to full in around 7 1/2 hours.

[Nick72]

Ernie,

This is brilliant thank you!

Most helpful. 

Am a previous PHEV owner so had a 7.4kW wall box installed. Mate owns a big electrical firm and we made use of the government grant so it hardly cost me much.

Kindest regards 

Nick

 

 

........

Not sure if this is the best place to ask but I've spent some time on RAV4World which is mostly Americans. 

Two questions if I may...

 

1. What's the difference between the UK and USA versions?

Here's what I think but not 100pc. We dont get the digital rear view mirror. We dobt get a spare wheel. We do get 6.6kW charger as standard. Any other differences?

2. Is there much usable space under the boot floor panel?

3. Any issues with chip crisis and missing features?

Mine is on order. Dynamic Premium with the protection plus pack. Decuma grey.

 

I cancelled my Volvo XC60 T6 Recharge order given they kept it quiet that it was now no longer coming with half the safety features like blind spot, cross traffic and more. Chip crisis. I was also in two minds anyway. Volvo or the RAV4. Different beasts.

 

 

[Broadway One]

Hi all......although a committed Rav fan of some years I'm a newbie to this forum.

Currently running a self generating hybrid & looking to replace soon with the new Dynamic PHEV.

First sight of one in our local showroom confirms that my love for the Toyota Badge is likely to continue.

Tactically a great choice, suits my needs precisely, but one major disappointing snag.

I can't install, or have a home charging facility & yes there are millions of us out there.

A 40/50mls EV range means fairly regular charging on the public network, in a word  HASSEL !

The charging lead is a double fairly hefty cable requiring to be plugged in both ends (EV & Charge Point)

Can imagine with regular use it's going to become a grubby, messy task.

A tethered home charge unit (single plug EV end only) takes all that away & ready to go at all times on AE.

Really disappointed, I really like the RAV 4 & the PHEV concept.

However without a home charging facility it loses the edge for me.

Barry Wright.

[ernieb]

@Broadway One, are you saying that there is no facility at all to plug a lead into the mains and use the mains charger built into the car.  I intend to buy an additional mains lead charger and secure either by having the plug in the garage or buy a eye bolt and pad lock.  (The pad lock around the cable after the built in communication box which is integral to the lead) The RAV4 PHEV locks the lead into the car during charging, this can be tuned off if required but I’m happy to have the feature.  The cable lock is released when you open the car.

 

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, Broadway One said:

Hi all......although a committed Rav fan of some years I'm a newbie to this forum.

Currently running a self generating hybrid & looking to replace soon with the new Dynamic PHEV.

First sight of one in our local showroom confirms that my love for the Toyota badge is likely to continue.

Tactically a great choice, suits my needs precisely, but one major disappointing snag.

I can't install, or have a home charging facility & yes there are millions of us out there.

A 40/50mls EV range means fairly regular charging on the public network, in a word  HASSEL !

The charging lead is a double fairly hefty cable requiring to be plugged in both ends (EV & Charge Point)

Can imagine with regular use it's going to become a grubby, messy task.

A tethered home charge unit (single plug EV end only) takes all that away & ready to go at all times on AE.

Really disappointed, I really like the RAV 4 & the PHEV concept.

However without a home charging facility it loses the edge for me.

Barry Wright.   

You seem to be missing the point Barry ...

A 46 mile EV range is 'perfect' if your daily commute is less than 46 miles and you can charge the car either overnight while you are at home or during the day at your place of work - and doing this would allow a RAV4 PHEV owner to do around 10,000 EV miles per year which isn't bad at all. (And if you can manage to charge the car both at work and at home you could perhaps double that  effective EV range).

But for longer journeys you'd rely on the petrol engine - the PHEV is still a hybrid - and that will give you around 500 miles on a tank of fuel.

I'm quite sure that Ernie will plug his in when he is out and about and stops for lunch or coffee because he can, but I doubt that anyone with a RAV4 PHEV would expect to rely on the public charging network.

And if your journey profile doesn't favour the PHEV (mine doesn't), or you can't charge it either at work or at home, the self charging hybrid remains the more cost effective alternative ...

.

[Broadway One]

7 hours ago, philip42h said:

You seem to be missing the point Barry ...

A 46 mile EV range is 'perfect' if your daily commute is less than 46 miles and you can charge the car either overnight while you are at home or during the day at your place of work - and doing this would allow a RAV4 PHEV owner to do around 10,000 EV miles per year which isn't bad at all. (And if you can manage to charge the car both at work and at home you could perhaps double that  effective EV range).

But for longer journeys you'd rely on the petrol engine - the PHEV is still a hybrid - and that will give you around 500 miles on a tank of fuel.

I'm quite sure that Ernie will plug his in when he is out and about and stops for lunch or coffee because he can, but I doubt that anyone with a RAV4 PHEV would expect to rely on the public charging network.

And if your journey profile doesn't favour the PHEV (mine doesn't), or you can't charge it either at work or at home, the self charging hybrid remains the more cost effective alternative ...

 

7 hours ago, philip42h said:

You seem to be missing the point Barry ...

A 46 mile EV range is 'perfect' if your daily commute is less than 46 miles and you can charge the car either overnight while you are at home or during the day at your place of work - and doing this would allow a RAV4 PHEV owner to do around 10,000 EV miles per year which isn't bad at all. (And if you can manage to charge the car both at work and at home you could perhaps double that  effective EV range).

But for longer journeys you'd rely on the petrol engine - the PHEV is still a hybrid - and that will give you around 500 miles on a tank of fuel.

I'm quite sure that Ernie will plug his in when he is out and about and stops for lunch or coffee because he can, but I doubt that anyone with a RAV4 PHEV would expect to rely on the public charging network.

And if your journey profile doesn't favour the PHEV (mine doesn't), or you can't charge it either at work or at home, the self charging hybrid remains the more cost effective alternative ...

Hi again......take your point, but I'm retired living in a block of 50 apartments.

Hence minimum facility at home & a no charging at work option.

Although a new build of high end properties each with private indoor parking, other than a 2 way pedestal charger on a small visitors outdoor car park there is no option other than the public network.

There are no domestic 240v sockets at ground level, only the 2 way charging point above.Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol';"> 

The 46mls EV range is perfect for me if I could park up, plug in, always returning to a fully charged car.

I am currently attempting to work up a project that would provide residents with self funded option to install a home charging unit within their individual parking bay, not straightforward in the world of communal living.

Would be nice to deal with this in an orderly fashion prior to the take up of EV's thats coming our way.

Very much in the foothills on this & would welcome comments from anyone out there in similar circumstances........Barry Wright.

[Roy124]

Barry, we looked at a manor conversion with some additional accommodation built to extend the building.  Near the apartment we looked at was parking for a number of cars.  It was not abutting the building and no charging points had been installed.  I pointed this out to the estate agent who agreed it was silly and would tell the developer.  We looked back 18 months later, some apartments still unsold and no charging points.

Anyone building new like that who doesn't install solar panels, heat pumps, and charging points should be refused planning permission.

[ernieb]

I have to agree that building apartments and the like without basic charging is very short sighted and should be part of the planning agreement.

There a still far too many different charging systems, it’s just so complicated and confusing. I’m lucky in that I’m retired and the majority of times charge the car overnight using the mains. The ICE gives me the confidence so that I’m not reliant on commercial charging systems.

[philip42h]

5 hours ago, Broadway One said:

Hi again......take your point, but I'm retired living in a block of 50 apartments.

Hence minimum facility at home & a no charging at work option.

Although a new build of high end properties each with private indoor parking, other than a 2 way pedestal charger on a small visitors outdoor car park there is no option other than the public network.

There are no domestic 240v sockets at ground level, only the 2 way charging point above. 

The 46mls EV range is perfect for me if I could park up, plug in, always returning to a fully charged car.

I am currently attempting to work up a project that would provide residents with self funded option to install a home charging unit within their individual parking bay, not straightforward in the world of communal living.

Would be nice to deal with this in an orderly fashion prior to the take up of EV's thats coming our way.

Very much in the foothills on this & would welcome comments from anyone out there in similar

circumstances........Barry Wright.

  

I agree entirely - the country, as a whole, simply isn't ready for EVs ...

While I could easily install a single phase charge point at home, many, many folk simply can't, and it's going to take a good few years before the infrastructure is truly in place. I too am retired so my journeys are either local or relatively long so a 40 mile EV range is useless, and even the 250 miles odd you can get from an affordable EV isn't enough to be comfortable without relying on public charging infrastructure. So for me, and for now, self-charging hybrid is the way to go ...

Hopefully things will move on over the next decade!