New Rav4 PHEV

[Yugguy1970]

I feel the same.  EV great for those of us with driveways and garages but for the most part the home charging infrastructure just isn't there not is it easily added.

[Broadway One]

On 7/5/2021 at 8:53 PM, Lawnmowerman said:

Yes, hydrogen - advantages - zero emission. Disadvantages - complex ICE.

EV - advantages - simple motor. Disadvantages - Lithium batteries.

Toyota may be swimming against the tide I'm afraid.

Hi....... as an admirer of Toyota strategy & bottle  to date I feel we are well short of the end game.

Little doubt they are the leaders in hybrid vehicles.

I'm sure they could produce a world leading EV now on a par with the over hyped Tesla's (MO), but choose not to. 

My take on this will need patience:

I believe the Mirai is a great car, unfortunately there are only 15 filling points within the country, mostly around London.

James May loves the Mirai having just taken delivery of a 2nd one. He did hint at hydrogen fueling availability being a major disadvantage. 

Thanks to natural gas the UK has one of the finest distribution pipeline infrastructures in the world linked to massive empty storage caverns.

Imagine this network charged with green hydrogen* leading to pumps popping up on garage forecourts as did propane filling points not to long ago.

Unfortunately steel pipes suffer embrittlement when exposed to hydrogen.

However lots of yellow plastic replacement is currently under way. In many cases the new pipe's are threaded through existing steel pipework.

There is a directive for all the main network to within 30 metres of domestic premises to be replaced by 2030.

This is to encourage consumer transition, much simpler to replace an obsolete gas boiler with a hydrogen replacement rather than expensive unfamiliar heat pumps etc.

Assume the domestic feeder pipe upgrade to the main network would be subject to a government grant, as the replacement of old lead water pipe's are at present.

Carbon free green hydrogen* available across the UK which brings me to think; are we all sleep walking, encouraged by central government towards ownership of expensive EV's ?

Can't help thinking of the policy reversal a few years ago associated with diesel !

Apologies for a wordy posting, a little more to come including my over simplification of a highly technical process but as I see it. 

* Green hydrogen harvest electricity from renewables, wind, solar, & passes it through an electrolyzer where water is introduced (H20) & the hydrogen gas separated ready to replace natural gas. Approximately 30% is lost in the process. This is where the green credentials take a further knock as the hydrogen gas needs to be compressed to a liquid for hydrogen fueling, again a complex process, but the prize is of holy grail proportions. IMO hydrogen will play a major part in the mix of future energy needs. Finally a little basic physics around something called "energy density"

Filling up at the local garage with petrol or diesel takes 10 mins.

The energy transfer from pump to vehicle tank through a 1" diam. hose is phenomenal (8/10 MW's) enough to supply a small town.

To achieve the same transfer in electrical energy in the same time scale would require a copper cable 12" diam.

In other words fuel storage in all forms is likely to be with us for many years to come.

Barry Wright Lancashire. 

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

    

 

 

   

 

  

  

[AJones]

49 minutes ago, Broadway One said:

are we all sleep walking, encouraged by central government towards ownership of expensive EV's ?

EV prices have been steadily falling and if you look at new models like the VW ID.3 they're getting close to the cost of comparable hybrid vehicles, some of the more basic EVs are already reasonably affordable and that downward price trend is likely to continue. So I expect that within a few years EVs won't be more expensive, certainly once fuel costs are taken into account. 

At the moment though its hydrogen fuel cell vehicle which look expensive, rare and hard to fuel due to the lack of infrastructure.

[ernieb]

We would need almost zero cost electricity to make hydrogen work as the conversation efficiently is very low.  If we can make Fusion reaction work that would be the way to go.

[Broadway One]

1 hour ago, AJones said:

EV prices have been steadily falling and if you look at new models like the VW ID.3 they're getting close to the cost of comparable hybrid vehicles, some of the more basic EVs are already reasonably affordable and that downward price trend is likely to continue. So I expect that within a few years EVs won't be more expensive, certainly once fuel costs are taken into account. 

At the moment though its hydrogen fuel cell vehicle which look expensive, rare and hard to fuel due to the lack of infrastructure.

Agree we are still in the foot hills with the distribution of green hydrogen across the country via the UK gas network; but prepared to give the Mirai a chance.

The new VW ID.3 is a great motor at a good price. I can see VW being the leaders in EV production across europe, if not already. On a cynical note it's almost as if they are trying to make amends for the emission debacle.

Moving on, I refrained from including the EV clean to run, dirty to build anecdote in my initial posting. Every developed country in the world has similar ambitions wrt EV's which rely on scarce minerals, there may soon not be enough to go round. The harm extraction & processing of lithium & cobalt in south America using vast amounts of water together with the alleged use of child labour in some area's is likely to cast a cloud for the future. Consumers may not be on board chasing the net zero dream upon realisation of  ethical labour practices & depletion of water sources in far off country's, hence my reference to possible policy reversible for the future as awareness grows.

Barry Wright Lancashire.    

 

 

 

 

[Broadway One]

On 7/5/2021 at 9:22 PM, ernieb said:

@Yugguy1970, I think there are a lot of “middle classes” living in terraced houses. I’ve read that there are trials of chargers being incorporated into lamp posts and induction charging. There needs to be solutions to make EV work for sure and it’s going to take a lot of thinking outside the box if the target dates are going to be achieved and the use of fossil fuel powered cars reduced even by a small amount. So as I said above super fast charging with the car charged when you visit the supermarket?

Hi all......recent doc. on BBC R4 referred to charge points integrated into existing infrastructure, mainly street lighting. The company leading this Ubitricity is a subsidiary of Shell. Lots of reference in the programme to this solving problems for those with no alternative other than street parking. However I have a query re the electrical capacity of street lighting circuits. Think home electrics, is a lamp post charger equivalent to installing a 13 amp. socket on a domestic lighting circuit ? If this means street lighting low power circuits, then EV's will need long charging times on a trickle charge; or am I missing a point here ? ..........Barry Wright, Lancashire.     

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Broadway One said:

Hi all......recent doc. on BBC R4 referred to charge points integrated into existing infrastructure, mainly street lighting. The company leading this Ubitricity is a subsidiary of Shell. Lots of reference in the programme to this solving problems for those with no alternative other than street parking. However I have a query re the electrical capacity of street lighting circuits. Think home electrics, is a lamp post charger equivalent to installing a 13 amp. socket on a domestic lighting circuit ? If this means street lighting low power circuits, then EV's will need long charging times on a trickle charge; or am I missing a point here ? ..........Barry Wright, Lancashire.     

The power supply to a lamp post is effectively the same as the power supply to our homes - so, in theory at least, there's no real reason why the lamp post can't act as a 7.2 kW (32A) charge point. So, EVs can charge as quickly plugged into the lamp post as they can on a standard home charger.

However, pulling 32A from every street lamp in the land might be something else ... ! 😉

[Yugguy1970]

Watching BBC click there's a Taiwanese company researching into Battery changing stations.

It's always seemed to me to make much more sense.  Have standardised batteries that you swap out at stations in 5 minutes.  They then charge them at controlled times, or by renewables.  You don't have to wait and we don't have to upgrade all our infrastructure to cope with fast chargers.

[ColinB]

7 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Watching BBC click there's a Taiwanese company researching into battery changing stations.

It's always seemed to me to make much more sense.  Have standardised batteries that you swap out at stations in 5 minutes.  They then charge them at controlled times, or by renewables.  You don't have to wait and we don't have to upgrade all our infrastructure to cope with fast chargers.

Not a bad idea, but it would almost certainly result in having to lease the Battery pack rather than own it outright and would cut into any savings against the cost of petrol at the moment.

I'm still waiting for the government to say how they plan to recoup all the lovely tax that they collect on fuel at the moment.

[Yugguy1970]

Yes it would be leasing. They also had a scheme of city mopeds where you own the bike but lease the batteries.  

The advantage is that when your Battery is down you go to the Battery bank, put your flat one in and get a charged one.  Takes like a minute.

 

[Broadway One]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

The power supply to a lamp post is effectively the same as the power supply to our homes - so, in theory at least, there's no real reason why the lamp post can't act as a 7.2 kW (32A) charge point. So, EVs can charge as quickly plugged into the lamp post as they can on a standard home charger.

However, pulling 32A from every street lamp in the land might be something else ... ! 😉

Ta for that, clears up the electrical capacity issue, however your point is well noted, seems there will have to be super smart management to protect the local network from overload imposed by multiple EV charging in the same locality. Not enough hours to satisfy all those claiming a full charge simultaneously ......Barry Wright.  

[ernieb]

The solid dielectric batteries that Toyota and Panasonic are working on for the BZ offering can be charged to 80% in 10mins. This would need a specific charger I guess but I understand the idea would be effectively pulling into a fuel station and plugging in rather than filling with a hose. IF this worked out to be true then this would make these batteries very much more practical for the majority of users.

The issue I still see is how do we generate the massive amounts of energy we need whether it be be electrical batteries or hydrogen.  Fusion reactors has to be the way to go…..

[Broadway One]

Hi......IMO the all electric Gridserve forecourt in Braintree is the future. 

 https://www.gridserve.com/braintree-overview/

They are well ahead of the curve for all aspects of future charging or fueling vehicles. EV's seem sorted & should green hydrogen prove a winner, think Toyota Mirai (sure there are more to follow). Gridserve could include filling pumps on their existing forecourts, a true green multi energy supply point.

Finally I do agree Small Modular Reactors (SMR's) manufactured by Rolls Royce are a possibility but still some way off. The fusion concept even further away. Unfortunately the hydrogen from either source would be purple hydrogen, not the holy grail of fuels green hydrogen.....Barry Wright.       

[IanML]

Surely hydrogen produced by electrolysing water using electricity from nuclear reactors would be green?

[Broadway One]

2 hours ago, ernieb said:

The solid dielectric batteries that Toyota and Panasonic are working on for the BZ offering can be charged to 80% in 10mins. This would need a specific charger I guess but I understand the idea would be effectively pulling into a fuel station and plugging in rather than filling with a hose. IF this worked out to be true then this would make these batteries very much more practical for the majority of users.

The issue I still see is how do we generate the massive amounts of energy we need whether it be be electrical batteries or hydrogen.  Fusion reactors has to be the way to go…..

 

3 minutes ago, IanML said:

Surely hydrogen produced by electrolysing water using electricity from nuclear reactors would be green?

 

5 minutes ago, IanML said:

Surely hydrogen produced by electrolysing water using electricity from nuclear reactors would be green?

Hi......IMO the all electric Gridserve forecourt in Braintree is the future. 

 https://www.gridserve.com/braintree-overview/

They are well ahead of the curve for all aspects of future charging or fueling vehicles. EV's are sorted & should green hydrogen prove a winner, think Toyota  

[Broadway One]

9 minutes ago, IanML said:

Surely hydrogen produced by electrolysing water using electricity from nuclear reactors would be green?

Unfortunately the green credentials take a knock due to the nuclear waste produced from spent reactor fuel, hence the lower grade classification labelled as purple hydrogen, full listing as I see it:

Grey; Hydrogen (dirty) produced from natural gas just like burning coal.

Blue; Hydrogen produced as above but with the carbon captured & stored (CCS)

Purple; Hydrogen produced from nuclear generated electricity.

Green; Hydrogen produced from wind & hydro generated electricity.

Yellow; Hydrogen produced from solar generated electricity, referred to as bottling the sun.

Thanks for raising the topic & hope this helps.......Barry Wright. 

    

[Yugguy1970]

So currently the trouble with hydrogen is it takes a lot of energy to produce it, so even if the energy you use is green you don't get a a lot of net value from it.

Frankly though the pure ice engine is massively energy wasteful and massively polluting in cities. Both hydrogen and ev can use green electric or at the very least move the pollution point to a single place away from cities full of people.

I'm lucky that I'm of an age to have experienced good ice engines.  The swish of a V engine, the lowdown torque of a big diesel.  But we have to move on or our kids and grandkids won't have a world.

Unless there really is a Thanos snap that disappears half the people we have to science our way forward.