Yaris 2017 Hybrid battery discharging

[peteloafer]

Hi all I'm new here so apologies if in wrong area/forum.

My hybrid Yaris has failed to start several times recently. On one occasion the AA attended  and said the batteries are prone to this so one must be extra careful in switching everything off.

I have purchased a CTEK 5 and intend to give the Battery a regular trickle charge.

My questions are:

Is this a sensible approach?

Can I charge the Battery whilst in situ?

Which CTEK setting should I use?  Normal or RECOND? as I'm fairly sure it's not an AGM type.

Thanks in anticipation

Pete

[Catlover]

Hi Peter and welcome to the Toyota Owners Club.I have the CTEK 5, brilliant piece of kit. Many cars suffered flat batteries during the lock down and the cold winter. Cars were not being used enough, and when they were it was invariably for short journeys. Starting a car takes a chunk out of the Battery and then just doing couple miles to the shop was t enough to charge up again.               
I note you have a hybrid and the big Battery will be under the seat, and I think the normal 12v is there too. In that case you should have an AGM Battery. If under the bonnet it probably a standard battery. A battery inside the car could split and spill acid over passengers if it was a standard battery. An AGM battery won’t do that.                
A Toyota tip for little used vehicles is the put the car into READY mode. This will allow the big battery to charge the 12v battery. Of course the big battery will run down but the engine will kick in to top the big one up. If you do this an hour a week that should keep your battery up to scratch. The engine probably will run only a few minutes each time it comes on and only 3-5 times in the hour. You car would need you to be in attendance because it will not be able to be locked, and you should not leave a running car unattended anyway.            
But you have purchased the CTEK 5 so you will use that. It is a slow charge. When I use mine I put it on early in the day and leave it as long as it needs, usually mid afternoon. It is straight forward to use. My Prius battery is under the bonnet so not AGM, but the wife’s Auris hybrid 12v battery is in the boot and AGM, but even so I connect using the terminals under the bonnet and an earthing point, which can be a bolt holding something in place as long as it goes through the metal ie top of suspension strut. Just follow the instructions, it’s easy peasey.                 
I would recommend you make the cable connection BEFORE you connect the mains connection (plug or CTEK inline connector) and also turn off that way.
Next time I will do ours is Octoberish, and then depending on use (we may be making “normal” journeys by then), as the weather turns bad maybe January and perhaps every 6 weeks to April time. All depends on use and weather.  The Recon - CTEK suggests annually. As you battery has been flat I would go for Recon straight away. That puts extra time on the whole process.

[peteloafer]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

Hi Peter and welcome to the Toyota Owners Club.I have the CTEK 5, brilliant piece of kit. Many cars suffered flat batteries during the lock down and the cold winter. Cars were not being used enough, and when they were it was invariably for short journeys. Starting a car takes a chunk out of the battery and then just doing couple miles to the shop was t enough to charge up again.               
I note you have a hybrid and the big battery will be under the seat, and I think the normal 12v is there too. In that case you should have an AGM battery. If under the bonnet it probably a standard battery. A battery inside the car could split and spill acid over passengers if it was a standard battery. An AGM battery won’t do that.                
A Toyota tip for little used vehicles is the put the car into READY mode. This will allow the big battery to charge the 12v battery. Of course the big battery will run down but the engine will kick in to top the big one up. If you do this an hour a week that should keep your battery up to scratch. The engine probably will run only a few minutes each time it comes on and only 3-5 times in the hour. You car would need you to be in attendance because it will not be able to be locked, and you should not leave a running car unattended anyway.            
But you have purchased the CTEK 5 so you will use that. It is a slow charge. When I use mine I put it on early in the day and leave it as long as it needs, usually mid afternoon. It is straight forward to use. My Prius battery is under the bonnet so not AGM, but the wife’s Auris hybrid 12v battery is in the boot and AGM, but even so I connect using the terminals under the bonnet and an earthing point, which can be a bolt holding something in place as long as it goes through the metal ie top of suspension strut. Just follow the instructions, it’s easy peasey.                 
I would recommend you make the cable connection BEFORE you connect the mains connection (plug or CTEK inline connector) and also turn off that way.
Next time I will do ours is Octoberish, and then depending on use (we may be making “normal” journeys by then), as the weather turns bad maybe January and perhaps every 6 weeks to April time. All depends on use and weather.  The Recon - CTEK suggests annually. As you battery has been flat I would go for Recon straight away. That puts extra time on the whole process.

Thanks for your comments they are very helpful.

I understand my 12v Battery is under a rear seat and not under bonnet. There is  I gather a charging and/or jump leads connection point under the bonnet under a fuse box which I have not had courage to locate as yet.

My Yaris hybrid does not have stop/start that is why I assumed it was not AGM type.

 

[Catlover]

Hi Peter, your Yaris, like all Toyota hybrids, has the most reliable stop/start there is. As long as the computer is not calling for the petrol engine to be running, when you come to a stop the car will be silent. When you want to move press the accelerator and the car hybrid Battery will move you or the petrol engine (ICE).                                        

Both our Auris and Prius the fuse box where the red +ve cable will go is on the nearside near the bulkhead. Just a couple of plastic clips holding the fuse box lid, just move out of the way and you looking for a lug which may be covered by a red plastic cap. The -ve is going to earth so some point near to that box, may be the fixing point for the suspension leg. You handbook may well show you the location of the lug.

How you finding the car generally, Many of us agree that a Toyota hybrid car is the most relaxing car to drive we had,

[peteloafer]

2 hours ago, Catlover said:

Hi Peter, your Yaris, like all Toyota hybrids, has the most reliable stop/start there is. As long as the computer is not calling for the petrol engine to be running, when you come to a stop the car will be silent. When you want to move press the accelerator and the car hybrid Battery will move you or the petrol engine (ICE).                                        

Both our Auris and Prius the fuse box where the red +ve cable will go is on the nearside near the bulkhead. Just a couple of plastic clips holding the fuse box lid, just move out of the way and you looking for a lug which may be covered by a red plastic cap. The -ve is going to earth so some point near to that box, may be the fixing point for the suspension leg. You handbook may well show you the location of the lug.

How you finding the car generally, Many of us agree that a Toyota hybrid car is the most relaxing car to drive we had,

Thanks again Joe

I'll try and locate the charging point later or tomorrow if the rain relents.

I am enjoying driving the hybrid very much. It is my first automatic so there was an odd transition period when I was searching for the clutch at junctions but that eventually eases and you begin to enjoy using gas and brake only. There is also a nice step up in technology and connectivity from my last car which satisfies the inner geek too.

I like the eco benefits and would probably acquire a full electric if finances allowed but that is for the future.

👍

[flash22]

The mk 3 yaris is an AGM type under the back seat, Its not stop start system, it's a hybrid system what is completely different

For maintenance/trickle ctek sell the leads, what you wire to the car, so you just plug the charger into that lead , no messing about with clips or finding a decent earth each time

eg.

https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/connect-eyelet-m6  (£7-10)

https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/car-charger/connect-eyelet-m8

or the posh one

https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/indicator-eyelet-m8 (£11-15)

they even do one for the cig/aux socket

https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/connect-cig-plug

 

[MikeSh]

5 hours ago, peteloafer said:

My hybrid Yaris has failed to start several times recently.

Does that mean 'failed to get into ready mode', or 'the engine won't start when in ready mode'?

The former would be the 12V Battery (possibly) but latter will be a traction Battery issue since that is what starts the engine (part of the hybrid function).

Charging or replacing the 12V will not bring a flat traction Battery back to life.

[flash22]

i have seen it where the Battery is marginal enough to put it in ready mode but not pull in the contactor - the main pack should be fine as it's 4 years old and should have passed it's HHC in its last service

[peteloafer]

Thanks chaps. I'm fairly sure its the 12V Battery.

Symptoms vary but if I give it a 30 minute run it starts ok for a few days.

If I don't use it for 3-4 days the fob sometimes doesn't even unlock the doors and I have to use the key.

When I engage the brake sometimes it lights up but not in READY mode so I cannot engage Drive.

Sometimes I power off and wait 2 minutes and it works fine.

When on hols in Bournemouth we didn't use it for 4 days and when I got in all the lights came on then went off and only Battery warning light came on. The AA came to get me going.  😬

[Catlover]

I have not heard of the big Battery, traction Battery, being depleted, it will only happen in extreme circumstances, for example, running out of petrol and keep running on big Battery.                
Most battery problems are with the 12v battery, lack of use in the cold weather this year being typical.  If the 12v battery hasn’t enough power it matters not what state the big battery is in, it could be full of showing low, if the 12v has not the power to fire up the computer and other critical actions the car is not going to start.      
Must read your last post Peter.  When was the battery changed in the key fob.  Do you have a spare key, codes that not work

[Roy124]

18 minutes ago, peteloafer said:

If I don't use it for 3-4 days the fob sometimes doesn't even unlock the doors and I have to use the key.

When I engage the brake sometimes it lights up but not in READY mode so I cannot engage Drive.

Sometimes I power off and wait 2 minutes and it works fine.

When on hols in Bournemouth we didn't use it for 4 days and when I got in all the lights came on then went off and only battery warning light came on. The AA came to get me going.  😬

These are all classic 12v Battery issues and what you get, or rather don't, is indicative of the actual Battery voltage.  Only had the door issue once.  The tailgate would not unlock, the driver's door was open so no problem there.

Catlover suggests wiring in a charging cable and Flash gives the CTEK references.  If your 12v Battery is accessible only through the boot e.g. Corolla 2.0, it will save you a huge amount of grief if you wire up a cable under the bonnet.

Flash mentioned this posh one:

https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/indicator-eyelet-m8

I tried it.  It showed green immediately after a drive but switched to yellow almost immediately after.  The final led was red.  The yellow range was quite small.  After an hour I got a yellow and the next day a red so really I had to charge it every day.  With a good battery it might have been better, but if you open the bonnet to check then you may as well charge it anyway.

I have a Chinese booster battery for when I don't have access to a charger.  Its light display is far superior.  4 LED.  Two blue, >75,>50 and 2 red >25 and <25.

[Catlover]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

Above is the last paragraph of my last post, it’s jibberish, predictive text. Should read…..  Just read your last post Peter. When was the Battery changed in the key fob?  Do you have a spare key, does that not work?

[peteloafer]

23 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Above is the last paragraph of my last post, it’s jibberish, predictive text. Should read…..  Just read your last post Peter. When was the battery changed in the key fob?  Do you have a spare key, does that not work?

I haven't tried the spare key fob yet. I've only had the car 4 weeks so no idea how old fob Battery is (or indeed how old 12v Battery is).

Having read several of your  replies it is becoming clear I think that the 12v Battery may be at the end of its life (though some timely intervention with CTEK may temporarily buy some time).

I guess my wider or long term concern is that a new 12v battery will also go this way sooner rather than later if shortish trips are the norm. The question (for me) is whether running a hybrid is worth the aggro of monitoring and charging constantly. Let's just say I'm getting to an age where I rather prefer things to work well without constant attention. Ahem.

Thanks again all for your comments

 

[Roy124]

Pete, definitely persevere.  Despite driving very gently for the first 5,000 miles or so I started to push my speeds to keep journey times short.  Surprisingly it made virtually no difference in consumption, but I like 60+ all the time compared with just under 50 on a long run in a diesel.

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, peteloafer said:

I guess my wider or long term concern is that a new 12v battery will also go this way sooner rather than later if shortish trips are the norm. The question (for me) is whether running a hybrid is worth the aggro of monitoring and charging constantly.

I'm not sure the hybrid thing has much to do with it. Non-hybrid's 12V have to crank the engine which is far more intensive.

These 12V batteries are consumables. If a 12V in any car of mine starts being difficult - slow cranking or whatever - and is more than a couple of years old (many have this much warranty) it gets replaced. Because I have got ...

1 hour ago, peteloafer said:

 to an age where I rather prefer things to work well without constant attention.

Yours has had 4 years of a previous owner who may have abused it, so just replace it. It'll probably cost less than a posh charger.

If it still causes trouble in a few months time you should have a bit of Toyota warranty left to argue over 🙂

[Catlover]

I didn’t know you only had the car 4 weeks. So the car is 4 years old. A 12v Battery should last longer then that, how much more depends on its history. Hopefully a recon with CTEK will help it last longer.             
When you do need a Battery in the key fob it will be a disc type. Dealer will charge you about £4, but you will get a good brand from Tesco for couple quid, fitting is easy.              
Once that Battery is charged up fully it’s going to take you through the summer. Only when the very cold weather comes you need to be careful BUT it’s only last winter we had trouble and that was because of not using the cars much due to lockdown and the very cold weather.               
Just relax and enjoy the car.

[peteloafer]

7 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

I'm not sure the hybrid thing has much to do with it. Non-hybrid's 12V have to crank the engine which is far more intensive.

These 12V batteries are consumables. If a 12V in any car of mine starts being difficult - slow cranking or whatever - and is more than a couple of years old (many have this much warranty) it gets replaced. Because I have got ...

Yours has had 4 years of a previous owner who may have abused it, so just replace it. It'll probably cost less than a posh charger.

If it still causes trouble in a few months time you should have a bit of Toyota warranty left to argue over 🙂

thanks Mike sounds about right 😄

[Cyker]

It is more of a problem in Hybrids and EVs as they tend to use smaller 12v batteries, but it is slowly becoming a problem for newer cars too because of the huge amount of always-on electronics they all run; Keyless entry is one of the biggest culprits as well as permanent internet connections.

At least with Toyotas you can change the Battery yourself without needing the dealer to code the new Battery to your car, like a lot of german cars have started doing!

The only way to avoid the problem is to get an old car that has less electronics; The Battery in my Mk1 Yaris was something like 10 years old and had never skipped a beat before I was forced to get rid of it! (Helped that it had a lot less electronics, and was diesel so had a beefier 12v to begin with!)

Or just drive the car more! 😉

[TonyHSD]

12v Battery life has never been a problem with our hybrids even in these that been used daily on short trips 2-4 miles and sometimes not used at all for weeks, perhaps the latest 2017 onwards has these connected services that requires constant 12v power. If the op Battery can be charge with ctek charger to its full capacity and then the car used daily even on short trips the Battery may last another few years before need a replacement, I think is best to try this way then buy a new battery, charger at home is always handy and a good investment too. Key fob battery doesn’t last long thought,  good to have few spare ones and one spare in the glovebox. 
 

[flash22]

Fob Battery - Get some decent branded ones - some dealers use cheap carp that may have been sitting on the shelf for years

The gen 3 does not have connected services "always on" like the 07/2021 gen 4 does - 2017-2020 is just a second facelift

 

Agm batteries take a low and slow charge (<4 amps) it can take 48 hours from flat - charged off the car, on the car it may take 100's of miles to get a charge to a decent level

[Catlover]

In one of my earlier posts I said you can get good quality batteries in Tesco, well I was in Tesco today and button batteries available included Duracell which were £8 for 4, either 2016 or 2032 (two common Toyota fob batteries). I not had much success with Panasonic batteries, whether this is the same Panasonic that does great  hi-fi and tv's I dont know.

[Gray86]

If the 12v Battery has been deeply discharged (sounds like yours has been close to flat), then you should use the CTEK recond function to restore lost capacity (at least on the first charge). 
 

The CTEK will charge the Battery fully - which 30mins of driving won’t do, so it will last longer before it needs a further charge. Try to keep on top of it by giving it a ‘top up’ every month or so - it doesn’t take long with these small 12v batteries, and it’s no harm to leave it on overnight (or for months at a time if you aren’t using the car) 

[flash22]

iirc the last ones i got were Energizer £4 for 2 in wickes (it was on my way home 5 mins around the corner)

 

[Catlover]

33 minutes ago, flash22 said:

iirc the last ones i got were Energizer £4 for 2 in wickes (it was on my way home 5 mins around the corner)

Energizer are another good Battery make.

[Catlover]

Peter, an other useful tip re the CTEK 5. If it is taking a long time to do the charge routine, or you started late in the day, no worries. You switch off and take the CTEK indoors. In the morning just plug in and it will remember where it was in the program and just carry on.      There are some good videos on You Tube re using CTEK 5.