CHR disappointment

[Roy124]

150bhp, 182bhp.  Just think back to days gone by.  My Ford Anglia was 39, my Triumph 1300 was 61, and my SAAB 99 with the Dolomite engine 86.  It was quite happy cruising at 90.  In contrast the SAAB Turbo was 145bhp and that was something.

These much more powerful engines of today give no better acceleration or speed than the cars of 50 years ago.  Instead they use the greater power so the engine operates at greater efficiency.

From performance lessons of 60+ years ago I seem to remember 40% and 60% of the power range gave the optimum economy versus power.

[DavidinDerbyshire]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

David, is you CHR the 1.8 or the 2.0.?

2 litre 68 reg.  13k miles.  And to correct my spelling,  "braking" not "breaking". I've never broken a car! LoL. 

[Yugguy1970]

The cars of 50 years ago weighed about a third of today's and were deathtraps in an accident.    My first car was a Marina 1.8tc.  Nostalgia makes me think of it fondly but I wouldn't want to drive my family around in one now.

[Cyker]

One thing I've learned over the years is that Horsepower is really deceptive measurement anyway - The most 'powerful' car I've owned was the Mk1 Yaris D4D and that had the second lowest HP of all the cars I've owned!

The most stark comparison was between that and the Mk2 Yaris I had after - 74HP vs 100HP, so the Mk2 should be faster and feel more powerful?

Not even close! The Mk1 felt leagues more powerful in all gears and speeds than the Mk2.

No matter what speed or gear I was in with the Mk1 D4D, if I pushed the accelerator in the car reacted, and you could feel it pull.

With the Mk2, it was a typical NA petrol car - if you pushed the accelerator you either needed to change gear the next second because the revs were so high, or nothing would happen until the engine rpm slooowwwlly picked up or you gave up and downshifted.

It was one of the things I hated about driving the Mk2 - I either had power or economy, but never both. (And not much of either!)

With the Mk1 D4D, I always had both!

It's one thing they've managed to replicate in the Mk 4 Hybrid (As long as the Battery has charge anyway!) which makes it so nice to drive!

 

[yossarian247]

5 hours ago, Roy124 said:

150bhp, 182bhp.  Just think back to days gone by.  My Ford Anglia was 39, my Triumph 1300 was 61, and my SAAB 99 with the Dolomite engine 86.  It was quite happy cruising at 90.  In contrast the SAAB Turbo was 145bhp and that was something.

These much more powerful engines of today give no better acceleration or speed than the cars of 50 years ago.  Instead they use the greater power so the engine operates at greater efficiency.

From performance lessons of 60+ years ago I seem to remember 40% and 60% of the power range gave the optimum economy versus power.

The increased weight of modern cars has a significant effect on their performance of course. A Toyota C-HR weighs roughly the same as two Ford Anglias! 

[AndyRC]

17 hours ago, DavidinDerbyshire said:

Have to say that even in Ecomode I use the M1 and the A61 near my home very frequently. The latter has a steep up ramp and I have no problem getting to 70 before joining the dual carriageway where I usually set cruise control without radar at 66mph and enjoy a relaxed drive to the Sheffield boundary. Lots of big SUVs usually pass me along with the usual GolF/Civic speed merchants and I quite often see them again at one of the two roundabouts before the Sheffield ring road. It amuses me when they fail to use the lanes advantageously and I go past them without queuing. Speed and journey management aren't always about car performance and much is about reading the road ahead and driving efficiently in the road space. Driving with a Toyota hybrid (I can't speak for other makes) means always lifting off and coasting wherever possible, braking only when necessary, and planning your manoeuvres so as to minimise stationary time. I keep my info/data on actual consumption and it's amazing how much you can see the 100mpg reading meaning the engine is virtually switched off. It means I get averages of 59+mpg  all the time in mixed urban/rural driving....but I'm told by the service team I should use my brakes hard from time to time to stop them rusting!  When I was a police driver several decades ago it was a matter of pride not to spill a drink positioned on the top of the dash. Gentle breaking became a habit. Although when I was rallying in my Volvo 122S it was a different story. 

As you say Driving smoothly and thinking well ahead is the key to good MPG and a relaxed drive. The point about discs rusting is valid as the majority of braking is done by the motor/generator setup in the gearbox and the actual pads and discs only come into play when the gearbox cannot offer enough retardation. We have quite a steep hill on the main route  out of town where we always give the brakes a good push to make sure the discs actually get some friction from the pads. It also creates plenty of regeneration for the Battery. Well worth keeping a regular eye on the condition of the discs for surface rust 👍

[Yugguy1970]

We are talking about power but what we really mean is torque.  Torque is the biggest luxury there is.  It's why I always preferred the way a diesel drove, especially midrange acceleration.

[forkingabout]

The 2 litre hybrid power train also uses a bigger electric drive motor compared to the 1.8 power train, this in part explains the larger amount of power & torque available from the 2 litre hybrid power train.

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, AndyRC said:

As you say Driving smoothly and thinking well ahead is the key to good MPG and a relaxed drive. The point about discs rusting is valid as the majority of braking is done by the motor/generator setup in the gearbox and the actual pads and discs only come into play when the gearbox cannot offer enough retardation. We have quite a steep hill on the main route  out of town where we always give the brakes a good push to make sure the discs actually get some friction from the pads. It also creates plenty of regeneration for the battery. Well worth keeping a regular eye on the condition of the discs for surface rust 👍

I had a Prius as a company car, as did many others, and a common problem was rusting discs. Toyota would not accept this as a warranty issue until force to by the lease company. I make a point of using the brakes reasonably heavily occasionally just to keep the discs clear.

[TonyHSD]

For brakes no need hard braking but use of brakes while car been set in N - neutral, then becomes like standard car and all stopping power will be done with the brakes instead of the e-motor. Doing so also helps to heat up the brake parts and evaporate the moisture buildup especially on slider pins, since these cars brakes never get hot. 

[DavidinDerbyshire]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

For brakes no need hard braking but use of brakes while car been set in N - neutral, then becomes like standard car and all stopping power will be done with the brakes instead of the e-motor. Doing so also helps to heat up the brake parts and evaporate the moisture buildup especially on slider pins, since these cars brakes never get hot. 

Does it not harm the "gearbox" to be moving in neutral?  With my first hybrid, a Yaris, I rather recollect that it was inadvisable.  But I can see the sense of it on the hills of Derbyshire and S Yorks. My only other problem with it would be an injured sense of pride in having my brake lights showing all the way down a hill. I hate that when other drivers do it.  (I also hate phantom braking when the car in front brakes for no reason, especially on M-ways, it usually means they are either on the phone or their brain is out of gear!)

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, DavidinDerbyshire said:

Does it not harm the "gearbox" to be moving in neutral?  With my first hybrid, a Yaris, I rather recollect that it was inadvisable.  But I can see the sense of it on the hills of Derbyshire and S Yorks. My only other problem with it would be an injured sense of pride in having my brake lights showing all the way down a hill. I hate that when other drivers do it.  (I also hate phantom braking when the car in front brakes for no reason, especially on M-ways, it usually means they are either on the phone or their brain is out of gear!)

Never mind brake lights on, better on than off and slowing down without others been able to see you. I usually do N brake once a week at least but always make sure no cars behind since most of the drivers these days are always on your bumper and doing that with someone close behind it’s not ideal. 👍 No harm to gearbox to let it cost in N for a while. Usually crankshaft is connected to the oil pump and while in N there is no oil under pressure supplied to the bearings, the gears gets it from the differential splash. 👌🚗 btw when you slow down in N the generator noise is still present but much less prominent. 

[Roy124]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:52 PM, yossarian247 said:

The increased weight of modern cars has a significant effect on their performance of course. A Toyota C-HR weighs roughly the same as two Ford Anglias! 

 

[Roy124]

The power to weight ratio on my Mercedes E class and Gorilla are very similar with similar 0-60.  Off hand my Triumph 1300 was around 850 kg.  Then I had to add a radio, undersea and one or two other bits, not much but things start to add up.

I guess rusty steel increases the weight too 🙂

 

[GBgraham]

On 7/31/2021 at 7:01 PM, TonyHSD said:

Never mind brake lights on, better on than off and slowing down without others been able to see you. I usually do N brake once a week at least but always make sure no cars behind since most of the drivers these days are always on your bumper and doing that with someone close behind it’s not ideal. 👍 No harm to gearbox to let it cost in N for a while. Usually crankshaft is connected to the oil pump and while in N there is no oil under pressure supplied to the bearings, the gears gets it from the differential splash. 👌🚗 btw when you slow down in N the generator noise is still present but much less prominent. 

Fortunately I'm in a place at the moment where there is not the type of weather to cause any brake component seizure. To be honest I probably do use the brakes quite a bit as I feel the regenerative braking is not as severe as it was when the car was new. This may be just me that has got used to familiarity of the regenerative braking or it may be the cars adaption to me, I also take it that the B position is just engine braking?

[forkingabout]

The B position is for descending a steep hill - basically in simple terms it provides additional engine braking.

The technical way it works on a Toyota hybrid system is extremely complicated. 

 

Here's a video that will explain it.

 

[GBgraham]

22 hours ago, forkingabout said:

The B position is for descending a steep hill - basically in simple terms it provides additional engine braking.

The technical way it works on a Toyota hybrid system is extremely complicated. 

 

Here's a video that will explain it.

 

Cheers for sharing this, what a terrible presenter though.

[DavidinDerbyshire]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:35 PM, Cyker said:

One thing I've learned over the years is that Horsepower is really deceptive measurement anyway - The most 'powerful' car I've owned was the Mk1 Yaris D4D and that had the second lowest HP of all the cars I've owned!

The most stark comparison was between that and the Mk2 Yaris I had after - 74HP vs 100HP, so the Mk2 should be faster and feel more powerful?

Not even close! The Mk1 felt leagues more powerful in all gears and speeds than the Mk2.

No matter what speed or gear I was in with the Mk1 D4D, if I pushed the accelerator in the car reacted, and you could feel it pull.

With the Mk2, it was a typical NA petrol car - if you pushed the accelerator you either needed to change gear the next second because the revs were so high, or nothing would happen until the engine rpm slooowwwlly picked up or you gave up and downshifted.

It was one of the things I hated about driving the Mk2 - I either had power or economy, but never both. (And not much of either!)

With the Mk1 D4D, I always had both!

It's one thing they've managed to replicate in the Mk 4 Hybrid (As long as the battery has charge anyway!) which makes it so nice to drive!

 

With you all the way on the Mk 1 Yaris. We had one of the grey bumper models - a T reg so must have been one of the first in the country. One of the "worst" things about it was fending off boy racers who couldn't keep up with it. And I regularly got 66+mpg.  I very much regret not getting the Verso version which you still see around in Motability guise. They just go on and on....

[Cyker]

Yeah the Mk1's were great little cars  - Some of the best cars Toyota ever made IMHO! The decline in build quality between the Mk1 and Mk2 is shocking!

As for the B-mode in the hybrids, I don't know about the other hybrids, but in my Mk4, contrary to what all the reviewers said, it doesn't maximize regen at all! I've played with it an it just gives the same regen as if you're lifting off in D - The rest of the 'braking' force is literally engine braking, as in it's spinning up the ICE and using its resistance to slow the car down; Total waste of energy!!

You get far more regen energy from braking in D-mode!!

 

[Catlover]

As for the B-mode in the hybrids, I don't know about the other hybrids, but in my Mk4, contrary to what all the reviewers said, it doesn't maximize regen at all! I've played with it an it just gives the same regen as if you're lifting off in D - The rest of the 'braking' force is literally engine braking, as in it's spinning up the ICE and using its resistance to slow the car down; Total waste of energy!!

but when going down a steep hill that’s when that B mode engine braking comes in very handy. You still need foot braking but less when you use B mode as it’s meant to be used, that is on downhill.

[TonyHSD]

You can try B mode in slow speeds under 20mph, in town driving the ice will not engage and the e motors will provide greater resistance and more regenerative power , I did try it on my Auris and works plus when in B every time I release the accelerator the car slows down faster and the regenerative counter needle goes down more than if slowing down in D. Not sure newer models can show that, except Camry and RAV4 . 

[Cyker]

Yeah, mine never shows more than 1 block of regen in B-mode (Same as releasing accelerator in D), even below 20mph - It uses the ICE to engine-brake down to around 7-8mph ish I think?

I've never used it intentionally so far as it's proven to be no real use vs braking on the hills I cross; Maybe if I visit Bath/Bristol?  

 

[Starensis]

Hybrids are designed for efficiency and economy, whilst giving you a measure of performance in sport mode. If you want performance and 0-60 in 5 seconds, don’t buy an hybrid. 

[Bob110023]

Sorry Adam. My Corolla 2.0 hybrid excel 0-60 in 6 seconds. Very quick for a hybrid and still getting average of 60 mpg.👏👏

[Cyker]

It's nice being able to have your cake and eat it