Engine vibration.........

[ThePermanentProject]

Hello all,

I'm hoping someone out there may have stumbled across this before me.........

I have an 1L IQ2 in front of me. 62 plate, 67K on the clock. FTSH to 65K. Good-very good overall condition. Fuel economy is as per manual, no incriminating fluid loss/consumption/abuse, passes MOTs with no advisories, no ill-noises. No complaints really, except............

.......it has an inexplicable engine vibration issue going on. Only evident from ~1800 - 2100 rpm, any gear, any speed, any ambient outside temperature and gets significantly worse when under load - sufficient to shake the rear view mirror and wing mirror lenses loose........... Can be felt through the drivers seat.

Things that have been checked/changed so far to try and diagnose/care for it:

- New engine oil and filter (0w-20, toyota OEM filter),

- Replacement standard air filter

- Correctly gapped spark plugs, (-all have a healthy tan colour to them)

- No error codes, Toyota sepcific or otherwise

- New Battery (correctly spec'd)

.....and still she struggles.

This appears to be a problem that isn't going away, but isn't getting worse either. Fuel quality seems to make no difference.

Anyone else come across this, or similar, and found a solution?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Common issue:

Etc.

[ThePermanentProject]

.....damn.........

Ok, thank you for the heads-up.......

[We-go]

As mentioned in other posts, The vibration is, in mine and other cases, the clutch. Try going up a hill, with the engine under load and the vibration is present. Gently push the clutch down and I think the vibration will reduce just before the clutch slips. Just had the clutch replaced in my 63 plate one litre manual and it is a dream now. But, clutch replacement is expensive in this car.

[ThePermanentProject]

Hi We-go,

Agreed - after reading around, like you, i bit the bullet and coughed up for the clutch to be replaced.

According to the service manuals, it's a 14 hr job, and it is easier if the whole engine comes out (!!!!).

Anyway, had it done. The old clutch had done 100K miles, and looking at it - the release bearing and pressure plate where fine - but the usuable clutch material was 99% gone, and one of the spring packs had failed.

I guess this accounts for the majority, if not all of the vibration - as it would clearly be an unbalanced rotating mass.

Vibration has 99% gone now.

Unfortunately, it has now shown up that the crank shaft bearings, and the Shell bearings are now failing. Apparently this can be as a result of the unbalanced mass abusing everything down the line.

So the fun continues.....

[Bernard Foy]

It could cost you more than the car is worth, but it’s your money and your choice 🤔.

[APS]

49 minutes ago, ThePermanentProject said:

Unfortunately, it has now shown up that the crank shaft bearings, and the shell bearings are now failing. Apparently this can be as a result of the unbalanced mass abusing everything down the line.

Possible, yes. What has indicated that the main bearings are going?

[PCM]

12 hours ago, ThePermanentProject said:

 

Unfortunately, it has now shown up that the crank shaft bearings, and the shell bearings are now failing. Apparently this can be as a result of the unbalanced mass abusing everything down the line.

So the fun continues.....

When my clutch was recently replaced, I also needed the Off side driveshaft support bearing replacing. ( £51.57 and a bit of labour . )

[ThePermanentProject]

16 hours ago, Bernard Foy said:

It could cost you more than the car is worth, but it’s your money and your choice 🤔.

Hi Bernard,

Oh good lord yes - bills could *easily* become astronomical if this were all to go through garages/dealerships.

The only way i can see that you can get away with this is if you:
1) got the vehicle for an exceptionally good price to begin with &
2) have alot of friends/family/time/space/tools/environment that can help

- that is how i am getting away with doing this.........

......and can hopefully end up helping a few others facing the same issues on here, at the same time (?)....

[ThePermanentProject]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:47 PM, APS said:

Possible, yes. What has indicated that the main bearings are going?

...after the clutch was replaced, what *sounds like* rod knock was coming from the lower area of the block (-verifed by the highly advanced 'screwdriver stethoscope' technique).......

After all the common-sense checks failing to illude to anything specific (draining & examining engine oil, checking plug condition, checking for DTC's etc etc....) I - begrudgingly - handed it over to a local stealership for professional examination.

24hr's later the CS guy phoned back and tried to explain to me - in technical language he very clearly didn't understand - that bearings in the heart of the engine were failing and it would require the engine being pulled, stripped down to as far as pulling the pistons, and being re-built, all of which was covered under a TSB issued to dealerships.

I asked to see said TSB to better understand what was going on. They refused to issue/show me this as it was 'a Toyota document'.
The price for this work was - of course - in orbit, and they - of course - expected me to just blindly accept what they were saying..........

So i am now left researching online to see if anyone else, somewhere else, has had the same symptoms, and if so - what have they done about it?

Given this problem is apparently covered by a TSB, this can't be an isolated problem, and i assume *potentially* relates to anything that has the same 1KR-FE engine in it (?).

Therefore - i assume - this means there *could* be a problem waiting to come and bite alot of us here ???????

[Cyker]

Ack, an engine rebuild essentially. At dealer rates it'd probably be cheaper to get a replacement engine from a breakers yard!

You can probably find the TSB yourself if you really want to but you need to pay for access at toyota-tech.eu

[ThePermanentProject]

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

Ack, an engine rebuild essentially. At dealer rates it'd probably be cheaper to get a replacement engine from a breakers yard!

You can probably find the TSB yourself if you really want to but you need to pay for access at toyota-tech.eu

Oh definately- paying dealer rates defies the key principle of this category of car-its sypposed to be cheap to run/own.

Just had a thought.........

The engine is supposed to run on 0w-20. The last oil change was done by the independant car dealer as a part of the purchase deal, so thinking about it, he will probably have used the cheapest, nastiest (-thickest) junk available to tick a box.....

So, if-(for example)- 10w-60 had been used instead of 0w-20, would this produce the same symptoms?

Thinking back, the oil did seem thicker than i expected when draining, and -rather damningly - these 'knock' sounds dont appear untill the engine is up to temp and idling, and even when it is, they are, although repetative, not consistent - which is not what i would expect from an engine with true rod-knock......

It's coming up to a service interval in about 100 miles. Might try some cheap 0w-20 synthetic - as an experiment - and see how she responds....

[APS]

It's unlikely the oil caused the knock. A thick oil would, on the contrary, protect the bearings better. The fact that you only hear the knock when the engine is warm, is indicative of worn rod bearings (and possibly bottom end too but you wouldn't necessarily hear that). As the oil warms up, it thins and is more easily displaced. Hence, if you put a thin (0w20) oil in there, it is only going to make the knocking start earlier. 

The engine is (as far as I'm aware) not known for 'eating' bearings. It is probably a combination that causes the problem. Maybe that internal Toyota technical bulletin outlines the conditions when it happens. My guess is that it is relevant for engines made in Japan (where the IQ is made) that are fitted with a clutch from a certain supplier, between certain dates. 

 We once had an Aygo (also with the 1KR-FE) which had done about 85k miles. Turned out the previous owner had not changed the oil since 40k miles. The cam chain and gear was a little noisy, and the inside of the engine tar coloured, but the bottom end was quiet as anything. It ran just fine. These engines are produced in huge numbers, still in production, and a tried and tested platform.

As has been mentioned, unless you are technically minded, have the facilities, the time and like the challenge of doing it yourself, you are probably better off replacing it with a decent second hand ditto. 

[Dizeee]

I'm a little confused, we are now talking knock? Is this different to the vibration?

I am pretty certain my 2k mileage IQ2 I had in 2008 also had a small vibration, and that was almost new. I have a vague recollection of it doing a similar thing to my current IQ2 (2011) - the internal mirror shakes and you get the deep sounds rush through the cabin as you pass 2k revs. The current one does this no doubt, it is pretty loud and the mirror literally shakes like an earthquake passing 2k revs. But the warmer the car gets, the less this happens. After around 6 minutes and beyond it it less noticeable.

I wonder whether this s as simple as an engine note that resonates with the shape of the car or the cabin, meaning when the engine is at a certain tick over it just happens to resonate with the chassis for a moment. The car is small so must be more prone to such characteristics? And isn't it true that this vibration has not cause one known failure to date?

Dipping the clutch would remove that connection with the engine so would naturally also stop the vibration for those that think it is the clutch.

[APS]

10 minutes ago, Dizeee said:

'm a little confused, we are now talking knock? Is this different to the vibration?

The Permanent Project stated the vibration caused by a faulty clutch may have cause premature bearing wear and subsequent knock. 

EDIT: But your reasoning is correct. If the problem was just the clutch disk. 

[PCM]

On 10/22/2022 at 9:03 AM, PCM said:

3 minutes ago, APS said:

The Permanent Project stated the vibration caused by a faulty clutch may have cause premature bearing wear and subsequent knock. 

 

As above... When my clutch was recently replaced, I also needed the Off side driveshaft support bearing replacing. ( £51.57 and a bit of labour . )

[ThePermanentProject]

On 10/25/2022 at 10:49 AM, Dizeee said:

I'm a little confused, we are now talking knock? Is this different to the vibration?

I am pretty certain my 2k mileage IQ2 I had in 2008 also had a small vibration, and that was almost new. I have a vague recollection of it doing a similar thing to my current IQ2 (2011) - the internal mirror shakes and you get the deep sounds rush through the cabin as you pass 2k revs. The current one does this no doubt, it is pretty loud and the mirror literally shakes like an earthquake passing 2k revs. But the warmer the car gets, the less this happens. After around 6 minutes and beyond it it less noticeable.

I wonder whether this s as simple as an engine note that resonates with the shape of the car or the cabin, meaning when the engine is at a certain tick over it just happens to resonate with the chassis for a moment. The car is small so must be more prone to such characteristics? And isn't it true that this vibration has not cause one known failure to date?

Dipping the clutch would remove that connection with the engine so would naturally also stop the vibration for those that think it is the clutch.

Fair point Dizeee - one topic has kind of drifted into another.

Not 100% how to set up a new thread and link this one to it for continuity though right now......so might be stuck with keeping this one alive unfortunately :~ ..........

[ThePermanentProject]

Ok.......so we had a little experiment yesterday.

Made a ~50 mile round trip around hampshire yesterday, bundling multiple errands into one journey (in this post-covid / cost of living night-mare world)......

Mixture of Motorway, A/B-roads, speeds, and in one case, a POW-grade concrete track into a farm.
Interestingly, the knock that is normally only audible at idle, did not consistently appear when i had to stop.

What i found did make a difference though - and i deliberately repeated this to try and prove the point - and it was consistent - vehicle inclination has an effect.

 - If the car stops on the flat, or pointing downhill, it repetatively knocks away good and proper.
 - If the car stops uphill, (for example on a motorway sliproad to a flyover) its dead silent. No knock what so ever.

On the flat, or pointing downhill, it takes 15-30s at idle for the knock sound to accumulate to something noticeable. I was was sat in commuter traffic for a good 5 minute stretch on an up-hill incline, waiting to get through traffic lights at a motorway flyover lastnight, and it was - regards this 'knock' 100% silent.

So i drove around the junction, back down the motorway to the next juction, turned around and came back, soley to replicate the situation. Same result.

So it would seem oil supply/pressure may have a part to play in this somehow?

 

There is an old-school ground-up 'nuts and bolts' mechanic that lives a few doors away here. Had a casual chat with him about these symptoms..........

Apparently, donkeys years ago he had almost an identical problem on a Ford escort he had. After months of weekend hobbiest trouble shooting, he eventually discovered (because it had an 'unknown' service history - as my IQ does - the previous owners had been careless with oil changes/oil spec.
This had lead to 'gumming up' of some of the internal bearings, and oil galleries, so although there was a plentiful supply of oil in the sump, it simply couldnt reach all the internals of the engine that it was supposed too.

Luckily (in terms of mileage) he caught it early enough, and it was solved by an engine flush, refilling with an oil grade one spec lower than recommended in the owners had book, (-so for example using 10w-40 instead of 20w50), using this as a more thorough flush, then draining & refilling with the correct spec & grade of oil in the handbook with a high quality filter.

 

I have managed to scravenge myself a sacrificial oil filter, and some engine flush, along with a bulk-buy of some half decent 0w-20 (originally intended for the other half's car) that could serve to clarify the situation here - as i have no real idea of what grade/quality of sludge the dealer had put in at purchase.

So, weather permitting this weekend, i will have another experiment here, and try the process my neighbour tried years ago and see where we are when the dust settles.......

Probably unlikely to work i know, but it's still a vastly cheaper option than replacing the engine, and will at least give opportunity to benchmark it on known consumables - for better or worse......

[ThePermanentProject]

Ok, so we have had said experiment today........

Drained & flushed engine Xw-XX oil. Oil level has dropped to half-mark on the dipstick after ~1500 miles of ownership, yet no evidence of leaks anywhere, so i assume it is burning some.

Oil that drained was jet black. The oil filter on there was clearly a cheap & nasty brand (pictured - after it was wiped down so you can see the text), and the body of the filter (when on the car) looked suspiciously dirty for ~1500 miles through favourable summer weather. The sump plug also had a metal crush washer on it that required butchery to remove - it must have been forced over the threads to fit it in the first place. Threads on the sump plug needed chasing/cleaning up after.
Short of stretching the sump plug, it generally looked like an all-round botched job, so im thinking the dealer didn't do a thing regards changing the oil/servicing the engine - as he had promised.  

Sieved the drained oil. Thankfully no evidence of water/coolant, metallic components or other nasties. No evidence of contaminant particles on the sump plug magnet either. Smelled just like standard used engine oil.........

Couldnt find anything thinner than 0w-20 available to be a sacrificial fill, so refilled with fully synthetic 0w-20 and a standard Toyota OEM filter, and relied on the flush doing it's job. Initial crank and warm-up were promising (-as you would expect).

5 miles into a 15mile test drive, symptoms, although minimal re-appeared. By the time i had completed the round trip, all the same symptoms had re-appeared, so i'm guessing it was 0w-20 in there, just OLD stuff.....

Given it has no evidence of issues during warm-up, i'm guessing it is happy on 0w spec oil when cold, but maybe needs something like 0w-30, or 40 to cover it when warm?