ISA speed limiter in new cars from may 2022.

[nielshm]

"Speed limiters on new cars by 2022 - Confused.com" https://www.confused.com/on-the-road/safety/speed-limiters-mandatory-on-new-cars

It seems like happy days of cruise are over. In the very near future, we are just passengers in our own cars. More or less... 

Acustic warning, power cuts, and what else? Depending on how strict the software operates, driving could become a pain. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

9 minutes ago, nielshm said:

Speed limiters on new cars by 2022

The confused.com article is incorrect.

ISA becomes mandatory on new Type Approvals after May 2022.

ISA becomes mandatory on all new cars from from May 2024.

[nielshm]

If the current Corolla, Yaris, Rav still are in production in 2024, they can wait to install this feature until there? 

But the new electric car will come with the limiter standard in 2022? 

[FROSTYBALLS]

56 minutes ago, nielshm said:

If the current Corolla, Yaris, Rav still are in production in 2024, they can wait to install this feature until there? 

But the new electric car will come with the limiter standard in 2022? 

Toyota will probably fit ISA to their existing models before May 2024, as will most other manufacturers.

As regards any Toyota EV which comes out in 2022, it depends whether the Type Approval is before or after May 2022.

If Type Approval is before May 2022, ISA doesn't need to be fitted until 2024. If Type Approval is after May 2022, then it will need to be fitted from when production starts.

Similar scenarios applied with daytime running lights, TPMS, AVAS, etc.

[Catlover]

I can’t see a problem. 70 in the uk is fast enough, though there are times one may need to exceed tI break away from a cluster of vehicles, and the system allows you do this. In fact the system allows you to override it completely before it reduces engine power to slow down the vehicle. 
Notice that Volvo has decided to limit its vehicles to 112 mph already. Is that bad, or good. Did we not read of reports in the early days of lockdown when the MWays had less traffic. Irresponsible people were far exceeding speed limits, sometimes doubling the speed limit. If they had crashed at that speed, even if they didn’t involve others, it would have been a big drain on Police, Highways Authority, and worse of all hospital staff, just when hospital staff were tied up treating COVID patients. Even a crash at 70 can be carnage. No one interested in preserving lives? We only have one life i this system….. why abuse it and waste it.

[Roy124]

Cat, probably mortuary staff at that speed. 

Some years ago we were driving along a Belgian motorway, early one morning and deserted.  As we cruised along we passed a Volvo Estate, it was embedded nose in on the far side of a ditch, its rear was hanging free over the ditch (size of a tank trap).  

No sign of skid or other collision, almost as neat as being craned into place.  Must have been doing some speed. 

[Roy124]

If, like me, you haven't heard of ISA, the following link will inform. 

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/new_technologies_new_opportunities/intelligent_speed_adaptation_isa_en

Reading that it appears I already have an open system with some features user selected. 

I have a visual speed limit display that turns red if travelling faster than the limit.  This is a PITA as my actual true speed is a full 10% lower than the limit. 

Then, in addition, the speed limit is in a green box if my set speed is below the limit. 

Then, with the ACC set the set speed contrast reverses becoming black on white if the car exceeds the ACC speed, for instance cresting a rise and accelerating before the ACC drops the speed back.  This is accompanied by 3 loud beeps. 

[AJones]

While a single maximum speed limit is possible, I doubt whether the technology has reached sufficient maturity for a variable speed limiter, adjusting as you move between roads and cross speed limit boundaries.

I've got Road Sign Assist, albeit from 2018, but it's no where near accurate enough to link it into braking or control, it regularly misreads signs or interprets signs for other roads branching off as applying to the main road. If that started activating braking in response then it would create a safety hazard. The satnav map speed limits are also quite hit and miss.

The best system I've used so far is Waze, the speed alerts seem pretty up to date and were useful as a warning, but again not sure I'd trust it to control a speed limiter.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Unfortunately, ISA is coming to new vehicles within the next 3 years, so whether or not individual systems are sufficiently accurate doesn't matter.

[Bernard Foy]

14 hours ago, Catlover said:

I can’t see a problem. 70 in the uk is fast enough, though there are times one may need to exceed tI break away from a cluster of vehicles, and the system allows you do this. In fact the system allows you to override it completely before it reduces engine power to slow down the vehicle. 
Notice that Volvo has decided to limit its vehicles to 112 mph already. Is that bad, or good. Did we not read of reports in the early days of lockdown when the MWays had less traffic. Irresponsible people were far exceeding speed limits, sometimes doubling the speed limit. If they had crashed at that speed, even if they didn’t involve others, it would have been a big drain on Police, Highways Authority, and worse of all hospital staff, just when hospital staff were tied up treating COVID patients. Even a crash at 70 can be carnage. No one interested in preserving lives? We only have one life i this system….. why abuse it and waste it.

Not to mention grave diggers and crematoria 🙏🤭

[Mikw]

The speedl limit recognition system is very patchy, I was in roadworks with a 40 mph limit the other day. The symbol on the dash said "40", then went to "10" and then leapt to "120"!!!!

Good luck integrating that into a maximum speed limit system.....

[Cyker]

Yeah, I've seen it display 20, 80 and 120 on the motorway  

I must admit, so far it's been about as useful as a chocolate teapot. When it's been really obvious what the speed limit is, it'll usually be right, although prone to weird glitches like above.

However, on the few occasions I've wanted it to work because I wasn't sure what the speed limit was, it's either been blatantly wrong (e.g. 5mph on an A-road that I wasn't sure was 40 or 50) or just displayed (_ _) because it didn't know what the speed limit was either!

 

IMHO, all these systems are stupid and counter productive - If some drivers are not obeying the rules, take their licences away! Don't take control away from the good drivers!

This is the whole problem with government at the moment - They're trying to fix human problems with technology which isn't up to the task, instead of dealing with the root causes. So the whole get inconvenienced and punished because of the acts of a few. Ridiculous.

Things like this are just going to make drivers worse, as they do with all things like this, by making them rely on such systems and stop thinking for themselves.

How about punishing those that break the rules 'eh? And if they continue to, take their licences away! Driving is a privilege, not a right! We all studied the highway code and took tests to show we could safely handle a 900+kg potential death machine. If people don't want to adhere to that, get them off the road - Nobody wants people like that driving!

It's like the auto-braking and autonomous cars - If they become prevalent, drivers will pay less attention as they rely on the car to stop for them, and the roads will be in chaos as pedestrians realise they can just walk across the road and force cars to stop for them!

 

[nielshm]

The speed limiter is not the only safety system to be implemented in 2022/2024.

https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/new-vehicle-safety-systems.html

The list seems long and scary. We do have some of these features today, and we can disable them, if we don't like beeing warned of controlled.

I fear, that we won't be able to turn off anything in the future. All safety systems, warning lights, sounds etc. are sets default (and locked) from the factory. 

It's going to be a true nightmare driving in city traffic, road works, cyclists of pedestrians crossing the road in short distances from the car. 

[Yugguy1970]

If I can switch it all off I'll be happy but yes, I can imagine they will all be compulsory.  

I have collision avoidance in my Focus.  It goes off if a gnat flaps its wings half a mile away.  I can only hope Toyota's is more accurate.

Will this also drive prices up I wonder.

[Catlover]

2 hours ago, nielshm said:

The speed limiter is not the only safety system to be implemented in 2022/2024.

https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/new-vehicle-safety-systems.html

The list seems long and scary. We do have some of these features today, and we can disable them, if we don't like beeing warned of controlled.

I fear, that we won't be able to turn off anything in the future. All safety systems, warning lights, sounds etc. are sets default (and locked) from the factory. 

It's going to be a true nightmare driving in city traffic, road works, cyclists of pedestrians crossing the road in short distances from the car. 

I read the list therein and I agree everything listed is safety related. What is wrong with anything that aids safety for all road users. Too many people get killed on the roads, many are innocent third party. So anything that helps cut the number of deaths, serious injuries, mental trauma etc etc has to be good. Whether these safety aids work efficiently is another matter, technology will improve…. It has to.

[Yugguy1970]

Because they don't work correctly.  If my car suddenly decides it's a 30mph limit and slams on when I'm on the motorway doing 70 that's bad.  If it thinks there's something in front of me and slams on.  If it thinks I'm not in a lane but I am and it pulls me across the carriageway?

Safety tech must be 99.99999999999% accurate and reliable or it is worse than not having it.  A human can make a mistake but they can also realise it.  A computer will continue to blindly follow it's programming.  It can't make a value judgement.

[Catlover]

Guy, if your car actually behaves as severe as you indicated then I hope you have had it sorted by now. What you described is more then worthy of reporting to Toyota UK and ultimately DVSA If Toyota Uk didn’t act in accord with the problem.  So how was it resolved????

[Yugguy1970]

It's my Focus, I'm still waiting for my RAV.  I doubt very much Ford could do much.  My point is more that this technology is not mature enough to be mandatory.

[TonyHSD]

Drivers habits and ability to drive has worsened a lot in the last decades, where the cars has become faster, quieter and with less feedback to the driver, common sense of safely driving been totally lost plus infrastructure in most countries is the same as late 80’s, new cars are flooding the streets at fast pace, all that factors combined together are serious risk and brings many fatal accidents. I believe car manufacturer are way too late to implement technology like that., plus is the way to driverless cars, which actually is the only way forward to safer roads., people are misbehaving , this is what they get. If more people drive normal and safe less need of all that tech, in reality it’s a war out there. No need statistics to explain to me otherwise, I spent long enough hours on Uk roads every day to see that myself. There are no normal drivers left out there but all road warriors “keeping up with traffic”  🚗⛔️🚫

[Yugguy1970]

You could use this as an argument for LESS driver aids.

My first car was a Morris Marina.  It did nothing for you so you had to drive it and you had to be aware of everything as it sure wouldn't have protected you much in an accident. 

Modern cars are far too easy to drive in that sense, they flatter and insulate the driver against their own incompetence and mask what's happening outside the coccoon.

[Catlover]

As an avid motorcyclist for many years, I am well aware of the vulnerability of road users. I last road a motorcycle in 1986, and even then the driving standard of many car drivers was horrendous. I develop, and many other riders, a sixth sense. Could anticipate what a car driver was or wasn’t going to do. Had to do that to stay on the bike many time, potentially to stay alive. Some car drivers could sure do with any aid available, but unfortunately the safety devices cars have now were non existent then.         
Fortunately, in my Toyota, all devices seem to be working well.

[Hadrian1]

Quote  " ...Fewer claims could see premiums fall. After all, insurers base their premiums on risk. And if there’s a lower risk of a claim being made,

the cost of insuring your driving could be reduced.... "

 

I wouldn't hold your breath on this one  😴

[Cyker]

I agree the systems are nowhere near ready to be forced on people through legislation, but it seems to be a general trend in industry to push things out before they're ready and use the public as beta testers.

It's like Windows 10 - Microsoft shut down 90% of their QA department to cut costs, and left us users find and report bugs; That's why it's been the buggiest version of Windows ever released, and why even the patches for the bugs often have bugs!

I actually believe that the reason drivers are subjectively worse, is because cars are *too* safe - They are like an armoured box that insulates the driver from the world, so they don't know what's going on! It's one of the few things I would rate very poorly on my new Mk4 - My view is obstructed in all directions, and the steering wheel is far too over-assisted to the point where I literally can't tell if the car is starting to understeer. Thankfully the improved handling compared to the  earlier models off-sets this a bit, as I can feel the way the car shifts a bit better, but overall it's more cotton wool on everything. Also, something about the car stops it conveying a sense of speed - I can be going quite fast but it really doesn't feel like it - I think if I didn't have the HUD I would have racked up a lot of speeding tickets by now! It's a really hard thing to articulate as it's never been something I've experienced in the older ones. Might be because it's an automatic and I don't get any feedback from the engine any more??

But IMHO, these safety systems are just band aids and do not address the real problem. I predict they will only make them worse - The more control you take away from the driver, the worse they will get. As it is the partial autonomy is bad enough they can't be considered anything more than assists - Even the radar-guided cruise control in my Mk4 will randomly brake really hard because it gets confused by parked cars, cars turning off, cars changing lane etc. to the point where although I have it on, I'm having to be even more alert to catch it before it does something stupid.

 I don't think fully autonomous cars will ever work in real life as there are too many edge-cases, and as I said if they become prevalent I can see more, not less, accidents happening.

Imaginary Scenario: Busy dual-carriageway near me - No crossings nearby, need to walk ages up or down to get to an underpass - Because of this, some chancers cut a hole in the fence of the center divider and will just run across the road when there is a break in traffic. When it's busy they could be waiting for ages, but imagine if autonomous cars were the majority - The chancers would quickly learn if they just walk across the dual-carriageway the autonomous cars would be forced to stop for them. Given how hair-trigger the auto emergency brake on my Mk4 is (I still have an ache in my chest from the last time it triggered because there was a car parked in the road and it slammed on the brakes, thinking I was going to crash into it, before I could steer round it!), I can imagine this scenario becoming common place!

And cars are just the beginning - Any moment some idiot in power is going to have the bright idea to start mandating this stuff on motorcycles and even bicycles!

 

[Yugguy1970]

I'm a big fan of passive safety systems.  Seatbelt tensioners, increased braking pressure when braking severely.  I like parking sensors and cameras.  

I like things that help me in making decisions.  I don't like things that decide for me.

I think it's my age 😅

[Hadrian1]

I remember many years ago someone saying, that people would drive with more

care, if instead of an air bag fitted to the steering wheel, there was a metal spike.