PHEV Charging.

[Broadway One]

Hi.......cruising on the motorway at the legal limit in engine mode.

Is it possible to select a charging option ?

Theoretical trip;

Motorway journey to a city with emission charges.

Charge mode initially then switch to all electric on entry to payment zone.

Realise its a tad naughty to use fossil fuel (petrol) for main Battery charging.

Just a thought......Barry Wright.

 

 

 

[duncerduncs]

Yes it is, you can 'hold' charge to use it later or allow the car engine to charge the Battery.

Don't forget, unlike most PHEVs, the RAV4 will still act like a HEV when the Battery gets a lower level giving you the advantage of respectable MPG....  

[philip42h]

A picture of the magic CHG Hold button:

Taken from a US source so a LHD car ...

A perfectly reasonable and sensible thing to do if you know your route, and are going through a mix of rural (where emissions matter less) and urban areas where emissions matter more. But I can't see any way that a city's blanket emissions charging system is going to know or care whether you do that or not - you'll simply get charged  based on the overall emissions bucket that your car falls in to ... 😉

[Cyker]

That is a great feature! I remember years ago we were saying on here the PHEVs should have a function like that - It's so nice when such things filter through!

I was going to say I wish my Mk4 had that, but with its tiny 700W battery that'd be good for maybe a mile? Probably not worth it then... 

[ernieb]

The charge hold mode will charge the Battery to around 80% full but remember that 30% of the Battery is reserved for the hybrid mode.  I believe that this charge hold mode is not a very efficient.  I’ve used it when the traction Battery is low and I’m just a few miles from home.  I’d rather use the charge hold mode early and have the ICE fully hot than it just come on a few minutes before I stop the car.

[Cyker]

Yeah, that's the thing with the hybrids - They aren't actually very efficient, certainly not up to a diesel; Their 'efficiency' comes from clawing back energy that would be wasted in braking (And that is a lot of energy!!), so if you don't let it use that they drop to being about as efficient as a smaller petrol engine.

 I know with my Mk4 it will try to run the engine at least 2000rpm when it's running, even if I'm going far too slowly to warrant 2000rpm's worth of energy use. The clever thing is it uses the excess 'spin' to charge the Battery, as the engine is more efficient at 2000rpm than at say 800rpm. However, 2000rpm will always use more fuel than 800rpm, so if you don't let it use the Battery charge that the extra 1200rpm gave you, you will have a higher fuel-use overall.

But that's the trade-off with the charge holding; You loose efficiency in the now to (hopefully) get it back later!

 

[ernieb]

Certainly the PHEV will run the engine at its best efficiency to maximise charge power under whatever road conditions and speed.

[AJones]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Yeah, that's the thing with the hybrids - They aren't actually very efficient, certainly not up to a diesel; Their 'efficiency' comes from clawing back energy that would be wasted in braking (And that is a lot of energy!!), so if you don't let it use that they drop to being about as efficient as a smaller petrol engine.

That's not quite right because Toyota hybrids (and some other makes) get an efficiency gain by operating the engine in 'Atkinson cycle' which is more efficient than conventional Otto cycle engines. The latest Prius was claimed as having a thermal efficiency of 40% which is not far off many diesels.

[ernieb]

The 2.5ltr in the RAV4 hybrid is 41% thermal efficiency as compared to a diesel running at peak efficiency of 45%. However, the Toyota 2.5ltr is probably running at its best efficiency in hybrid mode for a greater period of time for many journeys.

Overall I guess there are many factors that impact the efficiency but there is no doubt in my mind that currently the Toyota 2.5ltr is getting the most it can out of every precious cc of petrol.

[Cyker]

Well, they *claim* that, certainly, but in reality if you just run a HSD on the engine alone it doesn't get close to the mpg of a similar diesel, and is closer to the mpg of a petrol engine 2-300cc smaller - That was the thing that put me off the older Gen3 ones:

They were claiming 81mpg for the Mk3 Yaris Hybrid, which got me excited for it as a potential replacement for my Mk1 diesel with all of KHAAAAAAN!'s ULEZ stupidness, but where I was getting 70-odd mpg on long motorway runs in the D4D, the Mk3 struggled to break into the 50's on similar runs (Anecdotally) because it couldn't use the electric motor and that was the true mpg of the old 1.5L engine.

That and the Atkinson (or more correctly Miller) cycle engines (Well, more so the older ones anyway) are really gutless compared to diesel or even regular otto-petrol engines, so if you load them up they need more RPM and lower gearing, which uses more fuel, which cancels out the efficiency gains.

I remember a lot of the people on this forum who got a Mk3, but lived in hilly areas, were really disappointed with the mpg, whereas people that drove mainly on flat A-roads were getting much better mpgs, so that loading made a definite difference.

(I've sometimes speculated on whether the 1.0 otto 3-pot in the Aygo would be just as efficient as the 1.5L they use in the Yaris hybrids if they paired it with the electric motors!)

The main reason the Gen4 gets so much better mpg is it can drive on the electric motor alone at much higher speeds than the Gen3, and uses the electric motor a lot more, constantly cycling between the two motors at all speeds - The car is always trying to run the ICE at its most efficient RPM no matter what speed you go at (Well, unless you plant the accelerator pedal!), and feeds wasted energy into the Battery so it can later shut off the ICE and run on the leccy motor - A much better setup than the Mk3, which seemed to run almost exclusively on the petrol engine above a certain speed.

 

[Broadway One]

Hi all......thanks for some interesting comments.

So impressed with the RAV4 PHEV concept thus reinforcing my choice.

Not simple, Toyota Hybrids are flying out of the showrooms at present.

Dealers are practically begging me let them have my current 3 year old Hybrid.

No way is that going to happen, thanks to Corvid just 11k miles in showroom condition.

Its destined for a family member. 

Puts me on the back foot for a PHEV Dynamic deal.

Barry Wright.

PS Interesting/scary piece on EV fires featured on the Guy Martin programme screened last Monday at 9pm on channel 4.

Often thought about aging EV's & batteries in the coming years. Think 20/30/40 etc. EV's in a multistory all on charge, hope the sprinklers are up to the task if needed.  

 

 

 

  

 

[ernieb]

Sadly I don't think that a bunch of cars on fire caused by Lithium Ion batteries would be at all phased by a water based sprinkler system.  Lithium Ion batteries generally catch fire when they are damaged but once alight need special resources to put them out.  I'd think it more likely that the seat of most fires would be in the control, on board charger or inverters or over heating by blocking the air cooler intakes.

 

Aside: The RAV4 PHEV has an air intake with filter in the front side of the RH rear seat, but the car can be set to preheat or cool the Battery using its internal systems.  I run the hand held vacuum over the front of the filter grill regularly and intend to take it off and clean every 3 months or so. It's also important to not stuff a shopping bag in the seat well and block the intake.  It's a convenient spot to put bags I've do it for years.

Good luck with your purchase, it's a great car to drive.

EDIT,  just had a thought about the required infrastructure for charging. If say 50 EV's wanted to be able to charge at 22kW, not massive, then that supply would need to be over 1MW.  The scale of the EV charging system issues is really not going to be sorted overnight as well as the skills needed to instal and maintain the chargers in working order???

Sorry well off the OP.

[AJones]

8 hours ago, Broadway One said:

Puts me on the back foot for a PHEV Dynamic deal.

I've got the Prius PHEV and it's a great car, really impressive, but I got mine used at a good price, less than 50% of original cost and at that price level no used EVs come near it, the options are limited and the short ranges are a constraint. 

But the EV market is advancing really fast, if you were spending over £40,000 on a RAV4 PHEV today, that will now get you some really impressive, long range EVs. Ford Mach e, ID.4, Enyaq, possibly the Tesla Model Y later this year. Theres also the Lexus Ux300e although the range on that isn't that great. The batteries and ranges are huge, they're no longer a constraint. Unless you need something specific which the RAV4 offers that the EVs don't, then buying new and at that price level, you could skip PHEVs and go straight for a new EV.

[ernieb]

@AJones, it depends very much on your individual needs but for I still don’t think the charging sites are ready available enough to make the move to EV unless you don’t intend to travel Orr your going from point A to point B where you have independent arrangements.  I drive to Derbyshire on a very regular basis and looked at the charging options available to me taking into account winter driving and the real EV range before buying the PHEV. Sadly this would have meant even if I’d have been able to find a charger that I’d be able to use, that worked and I had an appropriate account for still having add a disproportionate amount of time to allow for charging.  The end destination is bereft of chargers so a good top up would have been essential.

I’d have loved to have made the move directly to EV but the range anxiety would have driven me bonkers.  Additionally I’d have paid considerably more money for a similar car to the RAV4 and not potentially enjoy the benefit of it being reliable car.

If the BZ range had been available with the new fast charge batteries then that would have done for me, either the Toyota or Subaru version as they will essentially be the same car.

At the end of the day we all see the same information differently and make our choices appropriately. I’m happy that when the EV range is exhausted the hybrid system will kick in and I can keep going but for a good percentage of my trips all I need is the current EV range I’m getting form the RAV4P.

[Broadway One]

4 hours ago, ernieb said:

Toyota PHEV Tip,  Battery Fire Risk, & Infrastructure Issues. 

Great tip re the air intake, thanks.

As a Toyota fan very much a supporter of the PHEV concept.

The 45 mile all electric (A/E) suits my needs almost perfectly.

Mostly local trips with the odd longer run to see family (150 miles max)  

Utopia would be a home charge unit in my parking space & a 100 mile A/E range.

Dream on !

Interesting feedback re battery fires, motorway pile ups in the future; frightening.

Indoor car parks like here with 50 cars parked up with maybe 20/30 on charge. 

From the Guy Martin programme it seems Tesla have built in protection cut outs.

But what about the many non Tesla platforms ?

Finally an aside wrt home charging in apartment blocks.

New development close by of 10 high end apartments.

20 outdoor parking spaces (2 per apartment).

3 pedestal 2 socket charge points at each end & central.

Additional underground infrastructure linking each space back to a main distribution point.

Seems buyers will be offered the option of a charge point in their bay, or at a later time.

The central marshalling point is within the main block, smart managed by the property managing company.

At last the message is getting through, off street secure parking is no longer the only criteria.

Unfortunately not so in my case; envious !

Thanks again all for your valued feedback........Barry Wright.

 

  

 

[philip42h]

52 minutes ago, ernieb said:

I’m happy that when the EV range is exhausted the hybrid system will kick in ...

I am too! 😄

Earlier this year we went out to replace the wife's dirty diesel with an EV ... an EV is fine if:

• You've got somewhere to charge it either at home or at work. Like a lot of people, we do, but an awful lot of the population don't have the facilities.
• You've got a regular commute that falls within the winter range of your chosen EV. If you do, you'd be a bit mad not to choose an EV - being retired we don't have a regular commute.
• You never need to exceed the winter range of your chosen EV, or are happy to life with the "range jeopardy" if you attempt to do so. Having an alternative mode of transport would help here!

Obviously, if you can afford to join the Tesla club, then a lot of these problems go away. And if you are a company car driver, the associated 'cost' considerations are slightly different. But while the EV technology is almost there, and probably will be within the next three years or so, the charging infrastructure currently falls well short of what is required.

She ended up with a C-HR hybrid. It is reasonably economical and will do any type of journey she wants to without thought or jeopardy. The car would happily do 1,000 miles a day (even if the drivers aren't really up to that sort of thing these days) - and that really isn't conceivable in any affordable EV these days.

The cost difference between a HEV and a PHEV means that the PHEV doesn't make economic sense - you can buy an awful lot of miles worth of fuel for that money. So, you'd only choose the PHEV if a company car scheme made doing so beneficial, or you wanted one because it was a PHEV (and it goes quite quickly too).

That said, assuming the infrastructure gets put in place and we can get an affordable EV that charges at around 600 mph, my next car (a few years down the line yet) will most probably be an EV ...

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, AJones said:

I've got the Prius PHEV and it's a great car, really impressive, but I got mine used at a good price, less than 50% of original cost and at that price level no used EVs come near it, the options are limited and the short ranges are a constraint. 

But the EV market is advancing really fast, if you were spending over £40,000 on a RAV4 PHEV today, that will now get you some really impressive, long range EVs. Ford Mach e, ID.4, Enyaq, possibly the Tesla Model Y later this year. Theres also the Lexus Ux300e although the range on that isn't that great. The batteries and ranges are huge, they're no longer a constraint. Unless you need something specific which the RAV4 offers that the EVs don't, then buying new and at that price level, you could skip PHEVs and go straight for a new EV.

EV ranges are long but here is my caution. Motorway winter range is really the figure to look at but as the manufacturers don't usually publish that it means resorting to forums and YouTube for user experience. A good example was the Volvo XC40 full EV. Very nice car, same platform as the Polestar 2. Really did consider it as an alternative because c. 260 miles and fast charging looked good enough for my long trips requiring only 1 no pressure stop on the return leg for a half hour charge.

Wrong. I was wrong.

Winter motorway range was about 160 miles even in the top spec models with the heat pump. And rapid charging was much less than rapid it turns out. The result then for me would be 3 charging stops for 45 minutes assuming that the charger was free and working. Which from my business trip recce over the last 2 years wasn't often. Make that 1.5 hours per charging stop. I've just now added up to 4.5 hours onto my 11 hour business day trip. So not practical at all for me.

EV range needs to be a winter motorway range of at least 260 miles. Possibly 300. That means a quoted range figure of about 400 miles. No one can do close yet.

Obviously everyone's situation is different on the EV vs PHEV choice and choices within that. Beauty about the R4P is that it is far less range sensitive to air con on or off, outside air temperature, motorway speeds than any other PHEV I know of (including my last one especially) and the range figure quoted by Toyota seems to be a gross underestimate vs the 50 plus miles many people are seeing.

11 days to get mine delivered.

 

 

 

[Cyker]

Yeah, I'm quite disillusioned with the current state of EV's, esp. as they've switched from improving them to telling you your usecase is wrong and if you do it properly an EV is perfect for you.

As it is, having home or subsidised work charging is essential, otherwise they are now actually more expensive to charge than it is to fuel Toyota hybrids or most diesels! I saw that Guy Martin programme too - I'm glad they didn't cut the bit about the Ionity charger issues, like so many pro-EV shows would have done.  70p/kWh and the charger only charged at ~30kW instead of 350! And this sort of thing is not uncommon, so many chargers are out of order on a daily basis and why? We've pretty much figured out electricity already, why is it so difficult to make a reliable charger all of a sudden??

That is Tesla's trump card at the moment - They realised early on the charging infrastructure is the key. And if you're an early Model S owner, free charging for life!!

EVs also seem to be getting less and less efficient - The best ones could do 5 miles/kWh, but most of the current ones struggle to hit 3 and that's pretty poor!

Seeing what's happening there really makes me feel I made the right choice of abandoning my plan to save for an EV and just get a Mk4 Yaris Hybrid! I think Guy paid £40 for ~150 miles of range on that Ionity charger - That would've given me over 500!!

When they can make an EV that does over 300 miles at 70mph in a Yaris-sized car, then I'll start paying attention again!

[Nick72]

13 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Yeah, I'm quite disillusioned with the current state of EV's, esp. as they've switched from improving them to telling you your usecase is wrong and if you do it properly an EV is perfect for you.

As it is, having home or subsidised work charging is essential, otherwise they are now actually more expensive to charge than it is to fuel Toyota hybrids or most diesels! I saw that Guy Martin programme too - I'm glad they didn't cut the bit about the Ionity charger issues, like so many pro-EV shows would have done.  70p/kWh and the charger only charged at ~30kW instead of 350! And this sort of thing is not uncommon, so many chargers are out of order on a daily basis and why? We've pretty much figured out electricity already, why is it so difficult to make a reliable charger all of a sudden??

That is Tesla's trump card at the moment - They realised early on the charging infrastructure is the key. And if you're an early Model S owner, free charging for life!!

EVs also seem to be getting less and less efficient - The best ones could do 5 miles/kWh, but most of the current ones struggle to hit 3 and that's pretty poor!

Seeing what's happening there really makes me feel I made the right choice of abandoning my plan to save for an EV and just get a Mk4 Yaris Hybrid! I think Guy paid £40 for ~150 miles of range on that Ionity charger - That would've given me over 500!!

Totally agree with all your points.

Tesla have the infrastructure nailed. Everyone else and it's luck of the draw, overpriced, and shambolic.

If I hadn't have needed a big car for DIY and gardening transport with AWD for Lakes and mountains trips I might have joined you on a Yaris!

[AJones]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

EV ranges are long but here is my caution. Motorway winter range is really the figure to look at but as the manufacturers don't usually publish that it means resorting to forums and YouTube for user experience.

Definitely, you need to do your research but there are models which are efficient, the Korean manufacturers, Hyundai and Kia score very highly on efficiency, a lot better than the premium brands, the cars go a lot further on smaller batteries.

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

EV range needs to be a winter motorway range of at least 260 miles. Possibly 300. That means a quoted range figure of about 400 miles. No one can do close yet.

The long range Korean models, the Kona and eNiro with the 64kWh Battery packs and heat-pumps, lot of reviews reckon these are fine for long distance motorway stuff and can do 200+ miles without issues.

But yeah EVs are still more of a leap into the dark with the infrastructure side, still in that early-adopter/pioneer stage.

[Nick72]

38 minutes ago, AJones said:

Definitely, you need to do your research but there are models which are efficient, the Korean manufacturers, Hyundai and Kia score very highly on efficiency, a lot better than the premium brands, the cars go a lot further on smaller batteries.

The long range Korean models, the Kona and eNiro with the 64kWh battery packs and heat-pumps, lot of reviews reckon these are fine for long distance motorway stuff and can do 200+ miles without issues.

But yeah EVs are still more of a leap into the dark with the infrastructure side, still in that early-adopter/pioneer stage.

It's a good point on the Korean cars. Problem was I couldn't find an AWD one and the winter motorway range was still only just over 200 miles where as I needed at least 260 or I'm worried about having to go through the recharge faff before I get to my meeting and that was an uncertainty i couldn't afford to have. On the way back with say 40 or 50 miles charge remaining and available to find a working charger might be workable but I'd sooner have another 40 or so atop of that in case! So they still didn't cut it for me on the AWD and range count.

[Cyker]

Yeahhh... so about the Korean EVs - turns out they aren't more efficient and don't get more out of the pack than other manufacturers...

 

See, one thing Toyota did with the Prius was to use a fraction of the battery's real capacity, because they knew every time you cycle a rechargeable between 0% and 100% it dies a bit, and the smaller the cycle the less they die so the longer they last - This is what Toyota continue to do and what most EV makers do.

However, Hyundai and GM did not do this. They knew people wanted long range out of their EVs, but also wanted to keep their cars affordable, so they decided to use nearly all the capacity of the Battery, which was why they were able to get so much more range on the Bolt and Kona out of a given Battery size.

Now, back in the day, people were saying the Prius Battery would be dead in 2 years - After all, we saw this in phone batteries, laptop batteries etc. But to this day many smug Prius owners are still on their original pack, so clearly Toyota's tactic worked to keep the batteries viable longer.

Conversely, it's been a few years and suddenly Bolt and Kona batteries are catching fire spontaneously when charged from low - Is it a fault in the batteries? I don't think so - I think we're seeing the laptop battery effect, i.e. what happens if you use the battery's full charge cycle instead of limiting it like everyone else did. It's telling that their solution is to limit the charge so that the cars lose around half their range... putting them right in the median of distance per battery capacity...

So it turns out they weren't more efficient or had some clever trick to get more range out of the batteries - They just over-used them, shortening their lives, and now they're failing, just like normal consumer electronics that used full battery cycles!

 

[IanML]

I think you'll find that Hyundai and KIA now prevent their vehicles accessing the top and bottom 5% of their batteries, and have done so since 2017, if not before.  Also, the Battery technology has improved considerably, so catching fire is a thing of the past, and the cell capacity has improved enough so the 10% or so buffer is not missed.

[Cyker]

That margin is far too small which is why they're having problems now - Most others are running at least 20% safety margins, usually more - Toyota are closer to 50%! And I'm afraid Battery technology has not improved as much as you think - The majority of gains have been from reducing safety margins and improved packaging techniques, but Energy density has barely improved at all, which is why all EVs are still either limited to short-range urban use or are giant land barges.

There have been some improvements in safety, mainly in Battery management systems and code, better fusing of individual cells in a Battery pack, and better understanding of the different chemistry's performance and tolerances, but the cells have as much potential to catch fire as they always have been and are just as hard to put out as they always have.

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Yeahhh... so about the Korean EVs - turns out they aren't more efficient and don't get more out of the pack than other manufacturers...

 

See, one thing Toyota did with the Prius was to use a fraction of the battery's real capacity, because they knew every time you cycle a rechargeable between 0% and 100% it dies a bit, and the smaller the cycle the less they die so the longer they last - This is what Toyota continue to do and what most EV makers do.

However, Hyundai and GM did not do this. They knew people wanted long range out of their EVs, but also wanted to keep their cars affordable, so they decided to use nearly all the capacity of the battery, which was why they were able to get so much more range on the Bolt and Kona out of a given battery size.

Now, back in the day, people were saying the Prius battery would be dead in 2 years - After all, we saw this in phone batteries, laptop batteries etc. But to this day many smug Prius owners are still on their original pack, so clearly Toyota's tactic worked to keep the batteries viable longer.

Conversely, it's been a few years and suddenly Bolt and Kona batteries are catching fire spontaneously when charged from low - Is it a fault in the batteries? I don't think so - I think we're seeing the laptop battery effect, i.e. what happens if you use the battery's full charge cycle instead of limiting it like everyone else did. It's telling that their solution is to limit the charge so that the cars lose around half their range... putting them right in the median of distance per battery capacity...

So it turns out they weren't more efficient or had some clever trick to get more range out of the batteries - They just over-used them, shortening their lives, and now they're failing, just like normal consumer electronics that used full battery cycles!

 

Thanks for this. Wasn't aware.

The Battery longevity or resale value isn't so much of an issue for me. I'd just prefer longer range and the Battery does in 6 years. Company car driver so I get to choose a new car every 3 years and nobody cares what state or mileage I hand the car back in. So squeeze the life out of them for me (but no fire please)!