MMT clutch slipping, workshop manual, & fix and tuning?

[sceh]

How do you change/top up the oil in the MMT box?

 

Thanks

[sceh]

Is this some kind of plot by Toyota?

I am looking for a workshop manual that covers the box or even a user manual like Haynes (which does NOT cover it) and I am also looking for some indication how to change its oil.

But no. There is not the slightest information available. I have checked eBay for manuals and innumerable sites for info but there is absolutely nothing. Almost like Toyota is trying to deny the existence of the box. Asking my Toyota dealer illustrates where we have come to in car repairs - they want money to read the ODB and then instantly want to replace the entire clutch and change mechanism. No-one knows how to fix or adjust anything and I doubt their ability to change parts frankly. I went with another Toyota with a similar problem and the guy quoted 3000 euros without so much as raising his head from what he was reading but as I was leaving he offered to bu the car since he knows full well he could adjust things rather than change them.

Still, doesn't solve my problem. 

Toyota - what's the problem??

[sceh]

Ahah I hear you say. There is a Toyota site where all this tuff is kep and you can pay for access 

https://www.toyota-tech.eu/

Go ahead, try it.

If you want advice on hour to install a Toyota approved bike rack, go ahead.

Anything else and anything remotely technical in terms of repair, forget it yet they expect people to pay?

[sceh]

sorry for the typos - finger trouble!

[flash22]

That is the Toyota portal, yes it is paid access 4 euro plus vat an hour

It's a manual gearbox just with an automated clutch and gear shift - clearly you need to replace the clutch what is 100-120 euro for the clutch kit,

If there were any other issues, it will log codes in the TCM (gearbox ecu)

[sceh]

here's how

 

 

[sceh]

As you may have  noticed, I have been having all the usual problems with the MMT box on my 2004 Yaris and the most recent was the clutch slipping when staring or accelerating. There is no information available from Toyota, so don't bother to look. Hower, thanks to HonestJohn at this site:

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=97184

I tried pushing anticlockwise but it made no difference. It seems to slide in and out rather than rotate.

Here's what I did.

Loosen the three 12mm bolts (there are only three and all the others are 8 or 10mm

The top moves towards the engine block and away from the block and it is simply a matter of finding the right position. I marked where I started with paint.

When I pushed it towards the block, the clutch slip was such that the car hardly moved. When I pushed it away from the block the car would creep in E or in gear with the foot off the brake and engaging reverse gave a loud crunch as in the old days when there was no synchromesh. From this point I then moved it towards the block slightly and it seems fine.

I can't give an objective measure of what is right in terms of distance or gap so just ry it and see. If all else fails put it back to where it was to start with.

It remains to be seen whether the clutch will wear more but we shall see.

This Toyota myth about the clutch needing replacement after 20-30K is just that. In the old days when technology was worse and clutches were NOT automatic, they lasted at least 80K. The need to change seems to be inspired by laziness and car mechanics no longer being mechanics in the true sense but readers of codes and replacers. When you read the maintenance and adjustment process for the clutch they try to reduce mechanical gaps to electric current readings and sensor readings and it simply does not work.

 

try this method and if it works for you, go and nag you Toyota garage

[sceh]

Of course, this begs the question as to why the holes are slots. If they are slots it implies it can be adjusted, but why? And why is there not an adjustment screw or a means of measuring the distance and a defined position?

There are no answers to these questions until you have worked with Japanese engineers and then you realise that they do not think like people in the West and probably don't even understand my questions and why I am asking them.

[stantheman1]

Thanks for posting Stuart.

[flash22]

There is information about for these systems, The early systems are known as freetronic

eg.

https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/21-06-10_faq_multimode_en.htm

 

Yes, low mileage cars can eat a clutch - not that common, but it does happen

 

 

ps. please try to keep all your MMT posts to one thread as it helps the forum keep track of every thing

[sceh]

Sorry, will do.

This is the document I have been looking for and my adjustment has been done by trial and error rather than have the rod in the clutch lever exactly right.

I am about to try my latest iteration...

[FROSTYBALLS]

Topics merged.

[sceh]

I adjusted it again to a point where it almost bites so now it engages almost immediately and drives well.

A result - so far at least!

[sceh]

Looking at the diagram and explanation posted by Flash22 it is clear that the rod must be fully seated in the clutch lever. To do this, undo the th bolts and push the entire unit towards the engine block. 

IF this is done correctly from the beginning, clutch wear is compensated for automatically in the actuator mechanism. If not, the mechanism doesn't do it and eventually it won't work and Toyota garages will charge you 3000 euros when they could simply adjust it.

So, the very first thing to do is make sure the push rod has no play between it and the clutch lever.

How come garages don't tell us this?

[sceh]

btw, the same principle applies to the versions where the rod engages in a fork. Move the body until there is no play

[sceh]

So I was a bit concerned I had adjusted it so that the clutch was nearly engaging and it would creep very slightly when in gear. I ran the Clutch Reset procedure and it is now like new!!

The clutch is adjusted automatically for wear by a combination of measuring the motor current and then a fancy mechanical system but it does seem to work

[sceh]

I am still getting bit of clutch slip between gears and when I start in first gear so it is not perfect..:-(

[sceh]

I have adjusted it a bit more by pulling it away from the block a little more. Now the car almost seems to creep a little when I engage E but the gearbox performance is perfect. It is a little like a classic auto box which will creep a little unless you have your foot on the brake.

So, the Toyota service bulletin and the Toyota garages which follow it are simply a manifestation of the current disease affecting garages - the manufacturer issues some codes and what to do and then the garages embellish it. The current idea that any problems need a new actuator etc are complete Mod edit touted by garages trying to get simple work and great profit. NOWHERE do they mention adjustment and  this is partially because there a no mechanics left who understand basic mechanics. Garages are taught to follow the service bulletins and not think and given the average age of car 'mechanics' I can see why

[flash22]

To be honest the main dealers are CYA mode because they know a clutch change can go badly wrong on an MMT, plus they don't like to work on anything 5+ years old

[sceh]

Actually I think it is worse than that. Anything hard means time and skill and they have other jobs to do which don't need either but give a great profit - like the regular services where they change the oil and the odd filter now and again.

[sceh]

After a month or so of driving in the new position, it seems to work perfectly now so next time a garage tells you to change the box/actuator/clutch/car...

[sceh]

Ah....it has given up the ghost. The actual clutch plate is worn smooth so it does not grip anymore.

Anybody any idea how much a garage charges to change a Yaris clutch?

 

thanks

[flash22]

£100-150 for the clutch £3-450 labour depending on where you are located, a lot of places will not touch the MMT

[Cyker]

Yea - The mechanical part should be doable by most competent mechanics, as it's just a normal clutch as it turns out, but the reason why a lot of them shy away from it is the calibration procedure, as supposedly you need specialist equipment (i.e. a fancy computer) to do it.

Toyota can do it for sure but the cost will be easily into the 4-figures...

[flash22]

There is a manual relearn/initialization procedure, if you don't put it into clamp mode before doing the work you are screwed

I'm sure I posted it in this thread, as I said in the first place it needed a clutch (earlier thread)

 

On 7/30/2021 at 11:15 AM, flash22 said:

It may just need a recalibration, there are known issues with the clutch motor and position sensor

INF12215_GB.pdf 148.83 kB · 72 downloads

 

The worse semi auto i have come across is the Vauxhall/Opel Easytronic they did drop it but decided to Use it in the Adam with disastrous results