Why the Sky High Price for RAV4 PHEV ?

[Catlover]

20 minutes ago, philip42h said:

You must let us know where you get your free electricity from - and whether it is actually legal! 😁

Supermarkets do free charging. Our local Tesco supermarket has about 6 charging stations, all free.  How long for, who knows.

[ernieb]

I’m currently getting 3.7miles/Kw average and the full charge, with the fixed traction Battery reserve of 30%, is 12.67Kw. So for me it’s 47miles EV range when using heating/AC.

I think if you buy the RAV4P on the basis of saving money the sums don’t really add up unless you have a biggish solar system and can offset the current power costs or perhaps already use off peak power for heating etc. I do feel, rightly or wrongly, that using EV for some of the mileage is a contribution to a greener transport system. If I compare my Subaru XV against the RAV4P there is no comparison the RAV4P wins hands down. I get much better performance in HEV mode than the XV ever did. If then add on the EV mode the I’m very much a winner. I also think form the research I did before opting for the RAV4P against similar PHEV models that the Toyota comes out at the top of the pile.

As the RAV4P is over £40k then there is the extra ‘road tax’ to pay for the following 5 years. This I do find very frustrating as it’s hidden away and was discretely moved down from the £50k trigger point. Of course the BIK is brilliant news for company drivers as the calculations are made on the WLTP figures and there is no way to force a company car driver to use EV at all. I’ve read a number of reports that suggest many PHEV drivers have never connected the car to an charger as they can not claim for the electricity only fuel? 

[lightboxcar]

philip42h  yes, meant to say 'petrol free miles...'  As for the electicity , you make a fair point re. future costs.

Calulations are based on reliable guidance from an esteemed forum member above.

In desperation to justify the purchase, consideration is now being made to installing a wind turbine generator to supply the electricity, actually a DIY turbine so as not to elevate costs even more.

Running the vehicle for 30 years is another possibility to make the sums meet the desired outcome....

Seriously though, you are of course perfectly correct, it's just the thought of rarely visiting a petrol station has significant appeal.

People sometimes pay extra for something because they like it,

3 hours ago, ernieb said:

The charging and preconditioning can be set when you want to drive the car

 

47 minutes ago, AJones said:

T&Cs below

Thank you for the warranty info

[lightboxcar]

21 minutes ago, ernieb said:

RAV4P is over £40k then there is the extra ‘road tax’ to pay

Yes, that's really not good.

This was the reason for considering the Volkswagon Tiguen PHEV, but in light of Gray86's view , not sure that's wise now

[Rav Rob]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

I’ve read a number of reports that suggest many PHEV drivers have never connected the car to an charger as they can not claim for the electricity only fuel? 

This is true for many, although my company fixed it easily, they paid driver the advisory fuel rates (what HMRC can be paid tax free) for a petrol car.

As 'electric miles' are cheaper than 'petrol miles' its in the drivers interest to plug in as you make more money off the company.

As a side note on free fuel, during most the time (5 years) I ran my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV the rapid chargers on the motorway were free! I used them almost every day on a comfort stop. Gutted when it stopped.

For company car drivers the RAV PHEV has a big ace over ALL the German, Japanese, Korean etc competition, its over 2.0 litres. Means you get a much bigger reimbursement if your company uses AFR rates, even better so as the RAV is also so economical as well. The difference is enough that the drivers of other PHEV's are barely breaking even or losing money, a RAV PHEV driver could make a significant profit.

Same applies for the HEV, which is why I am buying another one! I will make a nice profit every mile I drive for work.

[Cyker]

Yeah it really sucks how much more expensive EVs have become to charge now that more people are getting them - It's bad enough you have to pay an annual subscription to use some of them still, but the prices have shot up and EV's seem to be getting less efficient (5miles/kWh is good, 4 is okay, 3 and less is bad, but most EVs are now in the 3-or-less bracket), which means they're even more expensive to run.

It's now at the point where my old Mk1 D4D and my Mk4 hybrid are both on-par/cheaper to run than most EVs, if you only use public chargers!

The economy still works if you can charge at home, or have access to free chargers at work (Or supermarkets - Didn't know they still had free to use ones, so good to know!), but with public chargers hitting highs of 70p/kWh I'm almost glad I gave up saving for an EV and ploughed the money into this Mk4! (That I can hit 75-80mpg without really trying makes it hard to beat - I'm paying something like £35 for a bit over 500 miles of range on average!)

 

[AJones]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

EV's seem to be getting less efficient (5miles/kWh is good, 4 is okay, 3 and less is bad, but most EVs are now in the 3-or-less bracket), which means they're even more expensive to run.

I don't think EV technology is getting any less efficient, just that big, heavy vehicles, SUVs, 4x4s etc are inherently less efficient. The first EV models were mostly saloons and smaller vehicles with more aerodynamic profiles with less drag and lower weight, while many of the new EV models are now these heavier, larger vehicles, so it drags down the efficiency.

[ernieb]

And still the manufactures put out very misleading data on how well the car will perform. I’d hope that the WLTP tests would end that particular mes but in many ways it’s made some aspects of the reliability of these performance figures even worse.

[Cyker]

6 hours ago, AJones said:

I don't think EV technology is getting any less efficient, just that big, heavy vehicles, SUVs, 4x4s etc are inherently less efficient. The first EV models were mostly saloons and smaller vehicles with more aerodynamic profiles with less drag and lower weight, while many of the new EV models are now these heavier, larger vehicles, so it drags down the efficiency.

Exactly my point - Instead of making them more efficient, they're loading them with weight and high-drain electronics which is nullifying any efficiency advantage they would have had. And they're just getting bigger and heavier! It's one of the biggest reasons I abandoned saving for an EV and threw all the money I'd built up at the Mk4 Yaris - Nobody is going to make a 300-mile EV this size for at least a decade if the current trend continues; It's going to be hausfrauenpanzers all the way. It will be interesting to see if this proposed 'SUV' tax rumoured to be in the works in London will have any impact on that...

 

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

And still the manufactures put out very misleading data on how well the car will perform. I’d hope that the WLTP tests would end that particular mes but in many ways it’s made some aspects of the reliability of these performance figures even worse.

Yeah, they're just being one step behind as usual

They've just gotten the test to get a fair representation of real-world mpg of ICE and hybrid vehicles, but they completely neglected PHEVs and BEV's which appear to have totally blindsided them! It's funny because the percentage of error of WLTP and EVs (esp. their range), seems about the same as the error they had on the old system with ICE and MPG  

I will say the WLTP is definitely better than the NEDC tho' - Under the NEDC, the Mk3 Yaris Hybrid was rated at a fantastical 81mpg, whereas in reality it's a more disappointing 50-55. With the WLTP, the Mk4 Yaris is rated something like 68, but I'm able to get 75-80 without really trying - not too shabby!

 

[lightboxcar]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

It's one of the biggest reasons I abandoned saving for an EV

Was also originally was planning for an EV, quickly abaondoned the idea as totally impractical for the predicted driving pattern.

After reading all the really helpful replies am beginning to think cars are now like computers have been for the last 30 years.  Buy one today, and it's out of date tomorrow.

Next year Volkswagon are apparantely launching a PHEV with 100km/62mile EV range:  https://topelectricsuv.com/news/volkswagen/2023-vw-tiguan-hybrid/

[Cyker]

Yeah, same on the predicted pattern thing - I figured very early on that I'd need to be charging at home for the running costs to make any financial sense (Well, really there is no way a £35000+ EV could ever make financial sense vs my old £3000 diesel Yaris, but you get what I mean.)

So it would have to be able to go on my longest semi regular journey and back and on one charge - So far not even the giant landboats can manage that without dropping into single digit charge percentages unless I extend double the journey time by driving slower, at which point I may as well take a Megabus or something...!

Still, with all these interfering mechanisms coming in next year I'm extra glad I got it now - The brake warning and lane assist are already annoying the heck out of me with how inaccurate they are (So far they have had 90% more false positives than true - Case in point, on the way home on saturday night, the Brake! warning triggered on a completely empty dead straight road! I can only imagine a moth or crisp packet or something may have flown in front of the radar sensor?!) - I feel sorry for the people who have to deal with the speed limiter that's coming in on new cars, given how ludicrously inaccurate that has been (Drove for just over 10 miles on the A5 with it insisting the limit was 20mph when it was NSL, and then down the M1 with it thinking the speed limit was 80mph...! I've reviewed Dashcam footage and I can't even see where it would have picked these numbers up from!)

 

[lightboxcar]

46 minutes ago, Cyker said:

with all these interfering mechanisms coming in next year

This sounds scary, is there any way to disable these things ?

[FROSTYBALLS]

58 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Still, with all these interfering mechanisms coming in next year I'm extra glad I got it now

The safety features will become mandatory in new cars with new Type Approvals from May 2022.  They will become mandatory on all new cars from May 2024. 

For example the current Yaris and Rav4 Type Approvals were prior to May 2022, so won't be required to have the new safety features until May 2024 - although Toyota may fit them before this date.

[Yugguy1970]

Mandatory sucks.  The amount of times the speed sign recognition gets it wrong on the journeys I do is huge.  It's fine now as I only let it display what it thinks is right but if it becomes mandated there's 4 miles of a 50 zone where we all be doing 30.

I guess some might say that's a good thing 😂

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, lightboxcar said:

This sounds scary, is there any way to disable these things ?

You can, but I'm reluctant to - As much as I complain how it's wrong 90% of the time, it is that 10% where it is right that makes me hesitate from disabling it completely - so far it has saved me from hitting a low wall that I mis-judged, and clipping a car while squeezing into a parking space, so it does work correctly sometimes!

And disabling the LTA also disables the auto-steer when cruise control is on, and I must admit I really like the auto-steer; It's not perfect and I have to keep an eye on it as it sometimes tries to follow a phantom line or just suddenly turns off mid-turn, but as I'm keeping an eye on it and learning when these things are likely to happen I feel comfortable with it. I imagine it's like being with a slightly dopey learner driver, except you also have control  

Supposedly even the new mandatory speed limiter can be overidden by the driver, but we'll have to see how obtrusive it is - If it just tries to 'stick' to the speed, but if you continue to accelerate it then releases, then that's not too bad, but if you have to floor the accelerator to override it that will be a problem.

I'm just philosophically opposed to these measures as they are trying to fix the problem backwards: As I've said in a previous thread, we have been licensed to drive what are potentially high-powered mass murder machines by the DVLA; If they really think we need these systems to drive safely, maybe they should be looking at their training and certification methods instead as the people most likely to have accidents won't be driving these cars anyway, and overriding the judgement of a good driver is not going to make the roads a safer place. Case in point the issue I had where the car would leave me stranded straddling both sides of the road because it thought there was something in front (Speculation; Still don't know what caused that!) and wouldn't let me accelerate! And I can imagine an increase in rear-end collisions in the future as nervous drivers panic brake due to all the incessant warning beeps!

In short, anything that gives a driver more information and reduces their workload is good and desirable; Anything that unilaterally takes control away from the driver or overloads them is not.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

It will be Dept for Transport who will be responsible for managing the legislation, supported by their agencies (DVSA, DVLA, and VCA).

[Thermal]

21 hours ago, Cyker said:

... maybe they should be looking at their training and certification methods ...

oeoehh, be carefull what you wish!

Before you know it, someone there draws up a rule, like EASA does for the airlines: 4 times a year a couple of hours in the simulator and once a year a checkride from an airfield of their choice! The simulator sessions are very demanding and throw problems at you that most people don't even think they exist.  You have to pass, or you can look for another job...

And don't think it's far busier on the roads than in the air. 😵

 

 

[lightboxcar]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:52 PM, philip42h said:

You must let us know where you get your free electricity from - and whether it is actually legal! 😁

I haven't seen anywhere that Toyota quote the electrical efficiency for the PHEV but assuming that it's around 300 Wh/mile (not atypical for an EV) 15k miles/year would cost around £900 (@20p/kWh). As demand increases the cost of electricity is likely to rise significantly but we'll ignore that for now.

Running the HEV one should get around 45mpg. At current prices 15k miles would cost around £2,250 per year. As demand decreases the cost of petrol is likely to fall but we'll ignore that for now.

So, the saving from running a PHEV rather than an HEV is around £1,350 per year.

The premium for a PHEV over an HEV is around £10k - so a PHEV owner doing 15k electric miles per year would break-even in around 7.5 years (and over 100k miles).

I think - but I wouldn't advise anyone to trust my sums!

😉

Over one year since you made the prophetic comments above, and it turns out your predictions were highly accurate.

We ended up ordering a BZ4X.  It was the RAV4 infotainment system that made us not order the RAV4.

As you may know, the BZ4X has turned very sour.  We have the option to cancel.  The 2023 model RAV4 look to have a much better infotainment system

https://media.toyota.co.uk/new-2023-toyota-rav4-focuses-on-multimedia-connectivity-and-safety-upgrades/

Does anyone know when the 2023 RAV4 can be ordered ?  We heard maybe Ocober 2022

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

Does anyone know when the 2023 RAV4 can be ordered ?  We heard maybe October 2022

I didn't think that you could order MY22 cars any more - anything ordered would now be MY23 ... I could be wrong but I'd suggest that you ask your dealer.

[lightboxcar]

3 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I didn't think that you could order MY22 cars any more - anything ordered would now be MY23 ... I could be wrong but I'd suggest that you ask your dealer.

Thank you, we will do

[Nick72]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:16 PM, lightboxcar said:

Hello

Just joined this club in the hope of receiving advice as never owned a Toyota before.

Considering private purchase of new RAV4 PHEV , did a test drive and liked it a lot,  one reason being the excellent 46 mile EV range.

BMW X5 is even better at 65 miles, but price out of reach.  Volkswagon Tiguan PHEV is £11k cheaper but only 29 mile EV.

Fully appreciate the standard equipment supplied with RAV4 PHEV is very good indeed, but still feels a really sky high price.

Are you an existing owner? Do you feel the car has justified the high price ?

Despite the temporary chip shortage crisis, there will be many new models coming to market, and more competition , maybe the RAV4 PHEV will come down in price, or is that just wishful thinking ?

Thanks in advance

Best car I ever owned and I've been through top end Mercs and all kinds of stuff.

EV range in summer was 50 to 58 miles for me. Winter that will drop to 40 to 48 in my driving and use cases. 

Seem less transition between EV and ICE driving. CVT provides max power aligned with engine rpm. Very smooth. Lovely to drive.

Very practical. Robust. 

And a rocketship in disguise. Sleeper.

New 23 model looking good in terms of the cockpit updates.

 

[ernieb]

9 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

Over one year since you made the prophetic comments above, and it turns out your predictions were highly accurate.

We ended up ordering a BZ4X.  It was the RAV4 infotainment system that made us not order the RAV4.

As you may know, the BZ4X has turned very sour.  We have the option to cancel.  The 2023 model RAV4 look to have a much better infotainment system

https://media.toyota.co.uk/new-2023-toyota-rav4-focuses-on-multimedia-connectivity-and-safety-upgrades/

Does anyone know when the 2023 RAV4 can be ordered ?  We heard maybe Ocober 2022

I'd have thought you just go to the dealer and negotiate an order and you'll get a '23 model at this stage in the game. But as Philip says just ask them the question.

The PHEV is still a good transition option especially if you do a lot of local miles and occasional longer trips. As Nick says it's a great car as I'm sure the BZ4x will be once it's rolling off the production line.  This initial production problem will pass soon enough but if you need a car the '23 PHEV or HEV are good choices.

[lightboxcar]

Looking at Toyota UK online, there does not seem any option for panoramic sunroof.

Is this not avaiable with the RAV4 ?

[philip42h]

16 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

Looking at Toyota UK online, there does not seem any option for panoramic sunroof.

Is this not avaiable with the RAV4 ?

I take it that you are looking specifically at the PHEV rather than the HEV?

And then, yes, the Toyota UK website is a bit of a mess. They are still 'quoting' for MY21 cars - for MY21 there were three grades - Design, Dynamic and Dynamic Premium. The sunroof was not an option as such, but included on the Dynamic Premium.

Toyota have dropped the Dynamic Premium grade for MY23 but added back the sunroof as an option on the Dynamic Grade.

The website has fallen down somewhere in the middle!!!!

Check the September Price List for what Toyota UK are supposed to be selling (and for how much) and give your dealer as much of a hard time as required to get the information that you need ... 😉

[lightboxcar]

38 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I take it that you are looking specifically at the PHEV rather than the HEV?

And then, yes, the Toyota UK website is a bit of a mess. They are still 'quoting' for MY21 cars - for MY21 there were three grades - Design, Dynamic and Dynamic Premium. The sunroof was not an option as such, but included on the Dynamic Premium.

Toyota have dropped the Dynamic Premium grade for MY23 but added back the sunroof as an option on the Dynamic Grade.

The website has fallen down somewhere in the middle!!!!

Check the September Price List for what Toyota UK are supposed to be selling (and for how much) and give your dealer as much of a hard time as required to get the information that you need ... 😉

That's really helpful, thanks very much, and yes it's the PHEV, looking at the Sep price list now