E10 fuel enquiry

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Guys,

I am trying to brief myself on all this new E10 fuel issue going on.

I must admit that I'm not a regular fan of listening to the news, from what I've gathered they'll be removing regular unleaded from the forecourts and replacing it with this E10, and if that's incompatible with your vehicle then you have the super unleaded option but is more expensive.

So my question is, will my 2008 Aygo run on this E10 stuff without damaging anything whether in the short or long run?

It worries me, I feel like it's another money spin for the government guys

[martswain]

It's an environmental issue and the UK is finally playing catch up.

Here is the answer straight from the horse's mouth and we Aygo owners are fine with E10.

[Catlover]

and your right Sam, it’s going to cost us money.

what concerns me is that keeping E10 in your fuel tank for over a month can create water. I currently try to keep a full tank (within reason) especially in winter, as condensation can form. Now, especially as still doing less miles then 18 months ago, even with a full tank I collecting water albeit from a different source. I can’t win, full or empty I will be collecting water.

[steveo3002]

i plan to use it as normal , if i decide to park the car up then put some premium /super in it , esso premium is currently e0 

[martswain]

@steveo3002, not everywhere according to Esso !

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

[Yugguy1970]

I'm guessing the water seperates from the fuel and stays in the tank?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, martswain said:

@steveo3002, not everywhere according to Esso !

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

Quote

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme⁺ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland)

 

[Rosgoe]

I have used mostly esso supreme since I have had the corolla I don’t do many miles so don’t notice the difference in price.

sometimes use Shell v power I don’t think it makes it any more economical but it certainly keeps the engine cleaner.

[TonyHSD]

I will be using mostly premium 99 E5 from now on even I drive a lot I found the engine works better with 99 most of the times ,quieter, more responsive and perhaps cleaner burning. I do like to fill up from local BP where the price of a litre 95 e10 is the same as Tesco 99 E5 therefore no extra cost to me. I read a lot of articles and watch videos about it and tbh e10 can messes up all cars not only the ones who are not designed to run on it. Not that I won’t try it at lol but prefer to play safe especially when there are almost no choice on used car market prices are sky high and new cars waiting can be as long as a year time, rentals car parks are empty and prices are per day what use to,be per week. 👍

Here is interesting about e10. 
https://autotechnician.co.uk/forewarned-is-forearmed-e10-petrol/

Here a video clearly shows what is going on with higher quantity of ethanol. I am not chemist or specialist in chemistry or fuel industry however I know that ethanol is used to boost octane numbers and in some other countries the premium petrol usually is the highest ethanol content but in Uk it will be the regular 95 which may give them opportunities to use lower quality base and adding higher percentage of ethanol to boost octane number and quality of the fuel, so basically you fill up 95 E10 but that actually is 91 E10 for example, only speculation from my side, the time will show us what is happening. For people who drives occasionally or use plug in hybrids best to stick with premium E10 fuel just because of the water issues. 👍

 

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

I will be using mostly premium 99 E5 from now on even I drive a lot I found the engine works better with 99 most of the times ,quieter, more responsive and perhaps cleaner burning. I do like to fill up from local BP where the price of a litre 95 e10 is the same as Tesco 99 E5 therefore no extra cost to me. I read a lot of articles and watch videos about it and tbh e10 can messes up all cars not only the ones who are not designed to run on it. Not that I won’t try it at lol but prefer to play safe especially when there are almost no choice on used car market prices are sky high and new cars waiting can be as long as a year time, rentals car parks are empty and prices are per day what use to,be per week. 👍

Here is interesting about e10. 
https://autotechnician.co.uk/forewarned-is-forearmed-e10-petrol/

Here a video clearly shows what is going on with higher quantity of ethanol. I am not chemist or specialist in chemistry or fuel industry however I know that ethanol is used to boost octane numbers and in some other countries the premium petrol usually is the highest ethanol content but in Uk it will be the regular 95 which may give them opportunities to use lower quality base and adding higher percentage of ethanol to boost octane number and quality of the fuel, so basically you fill up 95 E10 but that actually is 91 E10 for example, only speculation from my side, the time will show us what is happening. For people who drives occasionally or use plug in hybrids best to stick with premium E10 fuel just because of the water issues. 👍

 

Plug in hybrids and people who drives only occasionally best to stick with premium 99 E5 petrol I meant in my post above but made a mistake and cannot amend now, or use something like that https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lucas-Oil-Safeguard-Ethanol-Fuel-Conditioner-with-Stabilizers-473ml-10576-/361451160818?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0. 👍

[rajivrattna]

You will be fine with E10. I would stop worrying. These cars are built to be able to run on E 10 since the switch over was decided more than 10 years ago but did not happen untill now. Besides they are compatible with E10 as it says at the Toyota web site. We have been using E 10 in Sweden for more than a month  now and have not noticed any sort of problem in starting, running or fuel economy in all our three cars (a Mazda, a Toyota Auris and a Lexus). We in Sweden should be more worried about winter starting and water crystals in fuel but we are not since that alcohol dissolves water and stops it from freezing in the lines. During winter the fuel from the pump receives more additives so chances are that it will run smoothly.

[Cyker]

You sound like you drive a fair bit so you'll probably be okay Sam - The biggest danger with E10 is if it's sitting for ages, as it slowly sucks water out of the air and holds it, eventually forming a layer of water at the bottom of the tank which starts to rust it (Unless it's a plastic tank like many are now), and then gets sucked into the fuel lines where it can start to rust out fuel lines and injectors.

However, as long as it's moving around it never gets a chance to do that - Just means if a car is going to be sat for a while, would be a good idea to fill it with Super, or put some fuel stabilizer into the tank. (TBH that's always been the case, just more so now!)

The other major problem with Ethanol is it's a fairly strong solvent, and will eat and corrode most natural rubbers, e.g. in hoses and seals, but all cars since the 2010's use synthetic rubbers which resist it a lot better, so again, shouldn't be a problem.

My main gripe is the lower energy content; 6% less with E10 vs E0 - They say it'll have a noticeable mpg hit, esp. on really efficient cars like the Aygo and our hybrids; The estimate is 1-3 extra fillups a year depending on mileage. If the price goes down (Which it should, as ethanol is cheaper than petrol!) then that won't be so bad at least...

 I'd really love to know what the differences are in the additive packages in E10 vs E5 (And E0!) - In theory they will need more fuel stabilizers and dispersents to counteract ethanol's hygroscopic nature, but can cut out a lot of octane boosters as ethanol is an octane booster (Which is another thing I always wondered - Why the heck were we putting lead in petrol to boost the octane when we could have just used alcohol?! So many mental issues in current adults can be traced back to a childhood of breathing in all that lead - I wonder how things would have been different if they'd just used alcohol!)

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Cyker said:

If the price goes down (Which it should, as ethanol is cheaper than petrol!) then that won't be so bad at least...

I think hell will freeze over before increasing the ethanol content will lead to a price cut 🥶

[Billyboy81]

I filled my 2009 mk1 up with E10 from empty and have driven it a bit and seems fine. I might be imagining things but it seemed to run smoother and quieter.

[Vandals01]

The thing is:

E10 has been rolled out in other European countries well before UK, and yet there have been virtually nothing saying Aygo is damaged as a result.  So it is safe to assume Aygo (both Gen 1 and Gen 2) is perfectly compatible with E10.

The only thing that concerns me is MPG (Fuel Economy).  Given the fact energy density of Ethanol density is LESS than Petrol, it is expected that E10 will increase fuel consumption.  The question then, is by how much?

Research conducted in 2011 shows the decrease is not signficant: https://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/09/study-finds-insignificant-fuel-consumption-change-between-e5-e1/  Let's hope that is true.

Anyway, I found that even amongst E5 themselves, fuel economy varies from brand to brands (at least for my previous Renault Clio anyway).  The worst MPG is usually the supermarket brands (C & S).

[Cyker]

Depends which research paper you read! I've seen wildly varying reports from virtually none to a more significant amount!

Theoretically, E10 should contain 6% less energy than E0, but how much that shows depends on the car; The general view is thirstier and high-performance cars will show virtually no difference, esp. vehicles that naturally benefit from fuels with higher knock resistance, whereas very efficient cars can take a noticeable hit depending on whether their engines can compensate.

Most of the studies I've read indicate E10 will require 1-3 more fillups per year vs straight petrol, depending on the vehicle.

Be interesting to see if we see similar, but that's small enough I doubt most people would notice. I haven't had my Mk4 for long enough to know how many times I'd fill up a year (I do fill fairly frequent because I do a lot of miles and, as frugal as it is, the Mk4's fuel tank is still tiny!), but it'll be interesting to see if my average mpg changes (Currently averaging about 72mpg across 16 fillups, 78 if I ignore the first two; For some reason they were a lot lower, 55 and 68mpg - I guess the car was still bedding in??)

 

[martswain]

The common consensus is that using E10 over E5 will result in around a 3% reduction in MPG.

We shall see !

 

 

[Roy124]

Very early days yet but my metered average continues to creep up.  Before you jump, I filled with E10 last month. 

I predict that fuel consumption will increase by over 10% in the coming months. 

I lost 10 mpg last winter and expect to do the same this. A master stroke introducing E10 as winter bites into efficiency. 

Also 3% is, I submit, impossible for us to prove.  Our driving styles might be individually distinctive but our driving conditions are not consistent. You might drive the same journey, same time, same weather but one day a clear road, the next different traffic. 

Looking at the annual graphs, my hybrid score is consistent, my average speed decreased slightly over winter.  In Dec/Jan my consumption was 54 and Jun/Jul 66.

However my miles travelled this summer as we approached unlock were significantly greater than during the lock downs with longer runs this summer. 

I think that pattern will be close to what many here will have done. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

4 hours ago, Roy124 said:

I filled with E10 last month. 

Probably wasn't E10. Government have made fuel companies re-label fuel pumps with E10 labels by the end of August in preparation for E10 being introduced from 1st September.

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Cheers for the all the input guys...filled my very first full tank of E10 today, covered 15 miles in total already, am I imagining it...or does it feel a little less powerful...I dont seem to find that it pulls like it used to...it had poke guys! Like I said, maybe I am imagining it...45.00 gave me a full tanker btw!

[TonyHSD]

3 minutes ago, SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS said:

Cheers for the all the input guys...filled my very first full tank of E10 today, covered 15 miles in total already, am I imagining it...or does it feel a little less powerful...I dont seem to find that it pulls like it used to...it had poke guys! Like I said, maybe I am imagining it...45.00 gave me a full tanker btw!

It could be, most people says even specialists technicians that from higher octane fuel only sports cars and turbocharged can benefit, although my personal experience is exactly opposite, the turbo charged car that I have access occasionally whatever petrol I  put in accelerates the same, however on my regular cars that I drive like Toyota hybrid 1.8 the different fuels make a significant difference, the car when fuel in is good simply drives as more powerful engine been fitted or perhaps you had been driving with under inflated tyres and you set them up correctly and the car becomes lighter. Going out for a drive with E10 now, but expecting to see difference after my second refill after two days since I managed to fill up only 32ltr of e10 out of 42ltr tank. 

[Roy124]

6 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Probably wasn't E10. Government have made fuel companies re-label fuel pumps with E10 labels by the end of August in preparation for E10 being introduced from 1st September.

Really?  Actually I noticed a much stronger Aromatic smell and that was not because I expected any difference just thought "that's, odd". 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Probably wasn't E10. Government have made fuel companies re-label fuel pumps with E10 labels by the end of August in preparation for E10 being introduced from 1st September.

Some deliveries (especially those from European wholesalers to UK retailers) have been E10 for several weeks, conversely some pumps (notably Tesco) have been labelled E10 while still having E5 delivered.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

conversely some pumps (notably Tesco) have been labelled E10 while still having E5 delivered

Because Government required fuel companys to re-label pumps in advance of the introduction of E10. 

[Stivino]

11 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Because Government required fuel companys to re-label pumps in advance of the introduction of E10. 

Surely it would be illegal to sell any product that isn’t as described?

i.e. selling E5 that is labelled as E10?